Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

[Maurice]

I think we're perhaps missing a thematic element here: that from ignorance we do action which causes harm. Humans wiped out whales without understanding the consequences of that, and the Probe is so intent on trying to contact the whales that it doesn't understand what harm it is causing, either. Soon as the whales chime in it shuts up and immediately leaves...perhaps a "whoops, sorry" gesture on its part.

 

[Silvercrest]

I kind of wonder how successful the reintroduction of humpback whales would be long-term after the events of TVH. The entire population is going to be descendants of George and Gracie... that doesn't sound like it's going to be a very diverse gene pool.

The novelization (by Vonda M., I think) suggested Federation scientists could help by introducing genes from preserved whale tissue and other sorts of genetic manipulation.

I remember the cetacean crew members, but have forgotten if they were in the prime universe or the mirror.

What? It's easy enough to tell. Did they have beards?

 

[Shat Happens]

The probe left, and it was understood that it would be back some day to hear more mature, complex stories.

I kind of wonder how successful the reintroduction of humpback whales would be long-term after the events of TVH. The entire population is going to be descendants of George and Gracie... that doesn't sound like it's going to be a very diverse gene pool.

That was not the point of Kirk's mission. He did say "repopulate" but I believe he has just bullshittin' Gillian.

 

[Christopher]

By the way, I think it's worth mentioning that in the 28 years since The Voyage Home came out, the humpback whale population in real life has recovered to at least 80,000, so that they're no longer considered seriously endangered. That's one prediction I'm glad Trek got wrong. Maybe the movie even helped promote awareness and contributed to their recovery in some small way.

 

[DonIago]

That's pretty cool. Nice to hear some good news related to the planet.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Diane Duane wrote Dark Mirror, which was a really good novel for a lot of reasons, not just the well done mirror universe.

I remember the cetacean crew members, but have forgotten if they were in the prime universe or the mirror.

Hwiii was a visiting scientist, not a crew member, and he was from what we now call the Prime universe.

I read the book when it was new, so, it's been a long time.

I remember the cetacean crew members, but have forgotten if they were in the prime universe or the mirror.

What? It's easy enough to tell. Did they have beards?

Was there a picture book version I missed????

But like I said above, it's been a long time, so I couldn't remember the specifics. I should find another copy of this one.

 

[Maurice]

Once hunted to the brink of extinction, [humpback whale] population fell by an estimated 90% before a moratorium was introduced in 1966. While stocks have since partially recovered, entanglement in fishing gear, collisions with ships, and noise pollution continue to impact the 80,000 humpbacks worldwide.

So I think TVH had no real impact.

 

[T'Girl]

So I think TVH had no real impact.

More like it was a part of the overall effort to bring the problem to the of awareness of the general population.

 

[Christopher]

^Right. It was part of the whole process of promoting awareness. In the same way that TOS and its inclusion of Uhura and Sulu was not single-handedly responsible for advancing racial equality in America, but it did have a role to play in promoting the principle to the public.

 

[2takesfrakes]

STAR TREK IV's Special Features include "The Language of Whales" - an interview with marine biologist Ree Brennin, who discusses theories about the meaning of whale song. Was she the lady Gillian Taylor was based on?

 

[Avro Arrow]

The probe left, and it was understood that it would be back some day to hear more mature, complex stories.

I kind of wonder how successful the reintroduction of humpback whales would be long-term after the events of TVH. The entire population is going to be descendants of George and Gracie... that doesn't sound like it's going to be a very diverse gene pool.

That was not the point of Kirk's mission. He did say "repopulate" but I believe he has just bullshittin' Gillian.

Oh, I agree that a repopulation effort was not Kirk's goal, but the whales *were* introduced back into Earth's ecosystem, and I was just musing on what their long-term chances would be.

What happens if the probe swings back by our neighbourhood and all the whales have died off due to some problem related to a very non-diverse gene pool? The post from Timewalker that I quoted indicated that the novelization implied the probe would be back. I guess then some future Starfleet crew would just have to dust off a time machine...

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^I would imagine the Federation made every effort to ensure that George and Gracie survived long enough to conceive many offspring so that the probe wouldn't have had an excuse to come back.

--Sran

 

[T'Girl]

Was she the lady Gillian Taylor was based on?

The character started as a vehicle for the actor Eddie Murphy, morphed over the course of multiple script, changed after Murphy lost interest, and eventually became Gillian.

IIRC.

 

[Maurice]

So I think TVH had no real impact.

More like it was a part of the overall effort to bring the problem to the of awareness of the general population.

20 years after the fact, so, again, I doubt it had any real influence other than maybe to make people realize humpback had been heavily hunted past-tense.

 

[Christopher]

20 years after the fact, so, again, I doubt it had any real influence other than maybe to make people realize humpback had been heavily hunted past-tense.

You're completely misunderstanding the passage you quoted. It says the moratorium was introduced in 1966, but that just means it was proposed. That proposal was rejected by the International Whaling Commission multiple times over the following two decades, and the threat to the whale population got progressively worse over that time. That's why the peak of the "Save the Whales" movement was in the '70s and '80s. That's why The Voyage Home was made in the first place. I mean, think it through. Would they have made a movie in 1986 warning about the threat of extinction to the humpback whales if it hadn't been seen as a genuine risk at that time?

Here's the article you should've read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-whaling

After growing pressure from member nations, in 1979, the IWC established the Indian Ocean Whale Sanctuary as a practical conservation measure. Three years later, in 1982, the IWC adopted a moratorium on commercial whaling, which took effect in 1986 and allowed for scientific research whaling. When Japan resumed whale hunts under the auspices of a research program, some anti-whaling countries and organizations criticized the moratorium's loophole for continued commercial whaling.

In 1994, the IWC created the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary in Antarctica to protect whales in their breeding grounds. Two additional sanctuaries were proposed in 1998 by anti-whaling nations, but they failed to get enough votes in the IWC.

So the moratorium didn't even start to take effect until the same year The Voyage Home came out. And it was an imperfect solution with some big loopholes. A number of countries, including Japan, have never stopped whaling, and some humpback populations remain endangered today.

 

[Shat Happens]

well, it's been almost 30 years and we still have whale wunting and nuclear wessels

 

[T'Girl]

While a small amount of whale hunting does exist, it's a fraction of what it once was.

The problem with "repopulating" Earth's oceans with George and Gracies offspring would be the size of the gene pool. Also,we have orcas in the waters here and they don't breed between brothers and sisters (don't know if that applies to humpbacks). These are intelligent creatures and not brainless animals, if humpbacks also shy away from incest any whales resulting from George and Gracie die out after that first generation.

Would a future Earth force sapient beings to produce children?

Legally and ethically?

 

[Christopher]

While a small amount of whale hunting does exist, it's a fraction of what it once was.

Today, yes, mercifully, which is why humpbacks are no longer endangered. But the point is that the decline didn't begin until after The Voyage Home came out. They were severely endangered in 1986, and it's only in the past quarter-century or so that their population has recovered.

We can assume, I suppose, that in the Trek universe, the moratorium on whaling did not go into effect in 1986 -- or perhaps it did for a few years but was then abandoned during the Eugenics Wars. Thus, in that reality, the humpbacks were not saved from extinction.

The problem with "repopulating" earth's oceans with George and gracies offspring would be the size of the gene pool.

Which is where genetic engineering comes in. The novelization covered that.

 

[Timewalker]

What happens if the probe swings back by our neighbourhood and all the whales have died off due to some problem related to a very non-diverse gene pool? The post from Timewalker that I quoted indicated that the novelization implied the probe would be back. I guess then some future Starfleet crew would just have to dust off a time machine...

^I would imagine the Federation made every effort to ensure that George and Gracie survived long enough to conceive many offspring so that the probe wouldn't have had an excuse to come back.

--Sran

I don't have my copy of the novelization handy to provide the relevant quote, but there is a paragraph or two near the end where George and Gracie explain things to the probe, and the probe basically sighs, agrees to stop harming the humans, and it'll be back in the future to hear more stories - not the mature stories it was expecting, but young stories.

Would a future Earth force sapient beings to produce children?

Legally and ethically?

I'm sure that George and Gracie, being intelligent and gracious people, would agree to do whatever is necessary to bring back their species from extinction.

 

[Shat Happens]

What happens if the probe swings back by our neighbourhood and all the whales have died off due to some problem related to a very non-diverse gene pool?

In the Star Trek universe? Without Kirk? easy answer. We're screwed.