Published authors profits?

[wew]

Depending upon what book is copied, a royalty would be due. The exception being those books that are in the public domain.

It sounds interesting but but at probably 15cents per page, I probably wouldn't be buying any.

Its a great idea in theory, but unless costs drops, I'd only be buying books that are antiiques, rare, etc.

 

[KRAD]

Thanks much, KRAD; that explains a lot. It appears that writing can be lucrative, but only if you're like the magician spinning plates on the ends of rods, and you have to keep everything going, with multiple projects simultaneously. I forgot that you also edit as well. It's remarkable that you participate as extensively on the BBS as you do, with all that you need to do to keep the rent paid.

It also can be lucrative if you hit it big, but that's a total crapshoot. And sometimes it takes ages. Janet Evanovich spent years writing romances in comparative obscurity before hitting it big with the Stephanie Plum books.

Working for the U.S. Census Bureau in New York City? I don't envy you...

Actually, it's been great.

You mentioned that you're not comfortable talking numbers in public, which is completely understandable, but was I wrong to ask for numbers?

Not wrong, but don't expect an answer for the same reason why you don't walk into an office and ask people what their salaries are. That's private information between employer/contractor and employee/contracted.

It is an old aphorism in your line of work, KRAD, that you're only as good as your last novel. By that reckoning, I can understand that every contract may be different, as well as the amount and nature of the advance depending on your previous books' sales, and if you hit one out of the park last time, you'll do better next contract (money-wise, that is). Is that an accurate assessment?

Sometimes. Less so with tie-ins, though, as the money is more based on the property and how much money the publisher has to play with. As an example, I got more money for Q & A than I got for A Burning House, because the former was a TNG book (historically a strong seller) and the latter was a niche title.

Once you get outside the tie-in realm, the money becomes more based on what you do, rather than what the property does.

It makes me wonder, though. The buzz over Trek books has gotten louder in recent years, and I have to admit, greater collaboration between the authors (and how did that all come about, anyway?)

The buzz really hasn't gotten louder -- or quieter. It's just that you're noticing it more now because you're more engaged. Anyhow, the greater collaboration was a natural process, engendered by the desire of both John Ordover and Marco Palmieri to foster it, especially once Richard Arnold and his dictates that the books be totally thoroughly and in all ways standalone. Richard was fired in 1991, but the mills of book publishing grind very very slowly, so it took a few years for his impact to wear off.

My question regarding this, though, is have Trek lit sales increased commensurate with the quality of writing? With the greenlighting of Titan and Vanguard, one would think so, but I'd like to hear from the authors themselves.

As stated above, this is not information that Pocket shares.

And how do current and recent sales stack up against what I noticed to be an earlier heyday of Trek lit in the late 80s/early 90s, when I noticed new mass-market paperback novels coming out with regularity (i.e. Next Gen's Imzadi, Reunion, Ship Of The Line, the first few Shatner novels, etc)?

It's not a big secret that Trek books sold better between 1986 and 1998 because that was when the franchise itself was at its healthiest. The quality of the writing rarely has anything to do with it in either direction.

I didn't know Peter David's Marvel gig (which I actually thought of as pretty lucrative, being a comic collector myself) was what gave him health insurance. What, didn't New Frontier make him independently wealthy?

Sorry, that amuses the shit out of me. Trust me, NOBODY writing tie-ins is independently wealthy. Hell, very very few writers (I'm talking less than 1%) fall into that mode.

Didn't know you wrote for Executioner. What titles, if you'd care to give a shameless plug?

Code of Honor's due in December of this year. Caribbean Queen is scheduled for June 2010.

 

[Snaploud]

Speculation:

Diane Duane's Spock's World (1988) had about 250,000 copies in print. I would assume that was one of the better selling trek books given that it was on the New York Times Best Seller List for eight weeks. A TNG technical manual reached 500,000.

500,000 copies x $5 x 0.03 = $75,000
250,000 copies x $5 x 0.03 = $37,000

My guess is that trek novels are down to between 25,000 and 75,000.

25,000 copies x $8 x 0.03 = $6,000
50,000 copies x $8 x 0.03 = $12,000
75,000 copies x $8 x 0.03 = $18,000

Let's assume that it's relatively the same across multiple tie-in works. Let's also assume a very prolific writer (ala KRAD) and say that seven tie-in novels are being produced each year.

That would give you--for an extremely prolific tie-in writer--a salary of between $42,000 and $126,000. Everybody else needs a day job.

 

[James Swallow]

Almost as much as authors hate libraries... .

Of course in a country with Public Lending Rights, there is a teensy fee when someone borrows your book out of the library, if you're signed up to it...

Wot Dave said; I get a nice little cheque every year from the PLR agency, thanks to all the people who borrow my books. It's a good excuse to donate stuff to your local library. The PLR fee reflects how many library loans your books get over a 12 month period across the UK, and it has a maximum cap, so people like Grisham or King don't get all the money.
Granted, it's not as nice as a royalty, but you get it on everything, even stuff that the publisher didn't give you a % for.

 

[KRAD]

Speculation:

There's a lot of false assumptions in this post, starting with the premise that the advances are based on sales. They're not. Keep in mind that we're paid before the book is ever printed. So many copies the books sell is an impossible criterion on which to judge because the decision on what to pay the author is made well over a year before the book even is on sale.

Let's assume that it's relatively the same across multiple tie-in works.

It really isn't.

Let's also assume a very prolific writer (ala KRAD) and say that seven tie-in novels are being produced each year.

I've never produced as many as seven tie-in novels in a single calendar year. My record is six in 2007.

 

[William Leisner]

Almost as much as authors hate libraries... .

Of course in a country with Public Lending Rights, there is a teensy fee when someone borrows your book out of the library, if you're signed up to it...

Wot Dave said; I get a nice little cheque every year from the PLR agency, thanks to all the people who borrow my books. It's a good excuse to donate stuff to your local library. The PLR fee reflects how many library loans your books get over a 12 month period across the UK, and it has a maximum cap, so people like Grisham or King don't get all the money.
Granted, it's not as nice as a royalty, but you get it on everything, even stuff that the publisher didn't give you a % for.

Wait... do Grisham and King, as non-UKers, in fact get any of this money?

More importantly, am *I* potentially entitled to any??

 

[Defcon]

More importantly, am *I* potentially entitled to any??

From http://www.plr.uk.com:

At the time of application you must have your only home or principal home in the UK or in any of the other countries within the European Economic Area (i.e. EC member states plus Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein). The UK does not include the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. If you have more than one home, your principal home is the one where you spent most time during the 24 months before your application.
Further details on PLR schemes around the world can be found on our PLR International website.

 

[JB2005]

wow being in the eec's finally done something that wasn't moronic...i'm shocked!

 

[SicOne]

In the immortal words of Frank Barone, "Holy crap!" I'm gone for two days and come home to find much waiting for me. And 694 people have viewed this, as of this posting, which tells me there are many people lurking in the wings, learning about the process.

First of all, thanks much to everyone who has participated thus far, especially KRAD. Thanks especially to The Laughing Vulcan, for putting it in proper perspective. While I'd like to think I share a love of Trek literature with millions of people (and I do enjoy the opinions of those few hundred, maybe a thousand?who post to the BBS), I would probably feel bad of I found out Myriad Universes sold, like, thirty copies or something. What do you think, published authors, did The Laughing Vulcan explain it well?

KRAD, so if I understand it right, you would make, say $0.24 on a single copy of "A Singular Destiny". One hundred thousand copies sold worldwide is still $25,000.00. Not too shabby. Let's see, minus agent fees, minus taxes...crap, back to the typewriter for you. Especially since you live in New York City. At least I'd like to think that sales would be that high, even in this bad global economy, factoring in libraries, etc...I prefer to think of Trek fans as being fairly more literate than many other genre fans, (though I think right now the vampire people are having Trek's ass six ways from Sunday) and that would reflect in increased sales.

Regarding asking about how much you make doing this, it wasn't that I wanted to know how much you make a year, for that's none of my business (I'm not gonna tell you how much I make driving trains for Union Pacific Railroad, but I'm union and it's enough to keep me in Trek books) but I guess I had built up in my mind not that you all live in gilded splendor like J.K. Rowling, but prior to this thread, that you guys lived, in the words of previous poster Nathan, yes, like kings...not maybe like Stephen King, who owns the state of Maine and large municipalities of neighboring states, but certainly well-to-do, even after the powers-that-be take their pound of flesh. And of all of you guys, I had figured Peter David, with all of the New Frontier stuff, lorded over all, kind of a "first among equals". But according to KRAD, it would seem I had a rose-colored view of it all.

But some of the rest of you, not to single anyone out (cough Christopher, Greg Cox, James Swallow, William Leisner cough), have not mentioned what your day jobs are. I guess I am curious to hear about what you do that you somehow find time to write...sometimes it's all I can do to keep up with the family, to say nothing of time spent on the BBS, which generally comes after-hours when the rest of the civilized world is abed. Also, I am curious to hear from you as how long it generally takes to write a book or a short story for an anthology, though, Christopher, as I looked at your annotations for Torrent Sea (folks, I highly recommend checking his site, it's very educational)(thus endeth shameless plug), it would seem you had in a sense pre-written it earlier and modified it for Titan, though that may be a one-sentence oversimplification of things.

I ask about how long it takes to write, because as I give this post a quick once-over before hitting the Submit Reply button, I notice the time and it took me about 45 minutes to compose it, clicking back and forth between earlier posts. And I don't know shit-all about writing, except that I've been told I use run-on sentences wayyyy too often.

I am glad to hear that Ordover and Marco fostered greater collaboration with you guys (Whatever happened to Ordover, anyway?). And of course, you knew it would be in all of your mutual best interests to work together to build on each other's work, to provide greater continuity and more engaged story-telling.

Another question comes to mind (though by now you probably think you're dealing with the Riddler, here...); how did each of you break into writing for Star Trek? Several of you have other books in other areas, but a quick look-see shows that many of them occur after you began writing for Trek. If you're in the mood for more questions, that is.

KRAD, I may have to check out your Executioner books. Though a certain Billy Ocean '80s hit comes to mind, making a rather incongruous match to a violent book...kind of like listening to Celine Dion while reading a Garth Ennis Punisher or The Boys comic.

OK, I'm off to bed, will check back in a few days when I get back from next trip.

 

[James Swallow]

but I guess I had built up in my mind not that you all live in gilded splendor like J.K. Rowling, but prior to this thread, that you guys lived, in the words of previous poster Nathan, yes, like kings...not maybe like Stephen King, who owns the state of Maine and large municipalities of neighboring states, but certainly well-to-do, even after the powers-that-be take their pound of flesh.

Sorry, I would have responded to this earlier, but after I stopped laughing, I took my gold-plated Harrier jumpjet for a spin around my private island in the Pacific...

Here's the thing - just because some writers are rich, it doesn't mean we all are (damn it...); most of us need a day job to keep the wolf from the door, and those of us who don't have to work bloody hard to earn a decent wage. The honest truth is, this job will never make you rich - but you do get to make stuff up for a living and be your own boss, so there's trade-offs.

But some of the rest of you, not to single anyone out (cough Christopher, Greg Cox, James Swallow, William Leisner cough), have not mentioned what your day jobs are.

Writing is my day job. I quit workin' for da man in 1997 and I've never looked back.

Another question comes to mind (though by now you probably think you're dealing with the Riddler, here...); how did each of you break into writing for Star Trek?

I used to write articles for Star Trek Monthly magazine, and through that I got to know people at Paramount. They invited me to pitch to Star Trek Voyager and I sold two story ideas that got made into episodes; meanwhile I was writing original fiction and tie-ins for other universes, and eventually the combination of these things got me on the radar at Pocket Books.

 

[Bob Greenberger]

Amen, Greg. The royalties are reported twice a year and my statement, covering July 1-December 31 2008 netted me a royalty of $28 and change. That's the total of everything I have written for Pocket for about 20 years. Never, ever count on royalties.

 

[JAG]

^ Well, at least you can get a pizza and a beer to celebrate getting your check.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

I do have a question...

Do writers know their sales figures?

Obviously it's not an issue with best sellers and books that hit the charts, but books which are borderline, for which the advance is the lion's share of the earning potential.

Do you find out, are you told how many copies you sell?

Do you have to ask? Also how do sales figures affect your writing? Will you be dissuaded from continuing with a series or a set of characters with low volume sales, even if you are in the middle of a story arc, or is that one reason not to ask for the sales figures?

I'm wondering because I write a fair bit about anime on a general DVD review website, and I know full well that I am writing for an exceedingly small subset of the visitors to that site. It actually makes me deliberately shy away from page traffic figures and clicks generated, just to keep me motivated.

 

[KRAD]

I would probably feel bad of I found out Myriad Universes sold, like, thirty copies or something. What do you think, published authors, did The Laughing Vulcan explain it well?

He did, yes, but MyrU sold more than 30.

The thing is, what matters to a book publishing company isn't raw sales numbers, it's percentages and profit. If a book sells, say, 75% of its print run, it's considered a success. If it sells 10% of its print run, it's a failure, regardless of what the raw number is.

For example: Tell Me About the Monkeys by Dave Galanter sold 100,000 copies, while Alcoholism for Fun and Profit by David Mack sold only 75,000 copies. At first glance, Galanter's the success, right? But what I didn't mention is that Galanter's book had a print run of 500,000, while Mack's had a print run of 80,000. Plus, because the expectations were so high for Galanter, he got a much much bigger advance than Mack did, so the publisher's out a lot of money (plus they have 400,000 books collecting dust in the warehouse).

KRAD, so if I understand it right, you would make, say $0.24 on a single copy of "A Singular Destiny". One hundred thousand copies sold worldwide is still $25,000.00. Not too shabby. Let's see, minus agent fees, minus taxes...crap, back to the typewriter for you.

Typewriter. You're funny.

And you don't quite understand it right, because I received an advance and I don't receive a single penny of royalty money until that advance is earned out.

Of the many many many many many novels I've written over the years (more than 30 that have been published), precisely one has earned out its advance: my World of Warcraft novel Cycle of Hatred.

Especially since you live in New York City. At least I'd like to think that sales would be that high, even in this bad global economy, factoring in libraries, etc...I prefer to think of Trek fans as being fairly more literate than many other genre fans, (though I think right now the vampire people are having Trek's ass six ways from Sunday) and that would reflect in increased sales.

Not necessarily, and keep in mind that ASD is a niche book that isn't going to do as well as a TNG book or the Destiny trilogy it followed up on.

but certainly well-to-do,

Not hardly. I make more money per year than I did as a full-time editor (which I did from 1990-1998), and while it's enough to live on, I am always struggling for money (especially since the income is horribly inconsistent -- you can go months without anything, then get a ton of money at once).

And of all of you guys, I had figured Peter David, with all of the New Frontier stuff, lorded over all, kind of a "first among equals". But according to KRAD, it would seem I had a rose-colored view of it all.

Oh yeah. Peter has a mortgage, two kids to support (he has four kids, but the older two are all grow'd up), and is the primary breadwinner. Terri and I make enough to cover our NYC rent (which is unusually cheap for the size apartment we have) and feed ourselves and our cats (one of whom is diabetic, so we need to buy syringes and insulin for him), but sometimes just barely.

But some of the rest of you, not to single anyone out (cough Christopher, Greg Cox, James Swallow, William Leisner cough),

Can't speak for those gentlemen, but I can tell you that Terri has a good job working here in the city for a large stable company (one of the few left ) and she writes at night and on the weekends and during commutes on the Express Bus.

(Whatever happened to Ordover, anyway?).

Initially, when he left Pocket, he ran a small publisher called Phobos Books. Nowadays he's doing fundraising.

Another question comes to mind (though by now you probably think you're dealing with the Riddler, here...); how did each of you break into writing for Star Trek?

I'd actually known John O. for nine years when he asked me to pitch to Trek. I first met him in 1990 when he and Greg Cox were both assistant editors at Tor Books. He moved over to Pocket in 1992? '93? Thereabouts... But, while he knew i wanted to write Trek very much, he didn't ask me for a pitch until 1999, after I'd written five novels (a Spider-Man novel, a Buffy novelization, two Young Hercules novels, and a movie novelization). The first pitch I sent him, he rejected, but then he came to me with the vague notion that eventually became Diplomatic Implausibility. It was all downhill from there...

KRAD, I may have to check out your Executioner books. Though a certain Billy Ocean '80s hit comes to mind, making a rather incongruous match to a violent book...kind of like listening to Celine Dion while reading a Garth Ennis Punisher or The Boys comic.

*snerf* I didn't think they'd go for my titles. Code of Honor was originally called Retired Spooks. I thought they'd both get changed, but they kept Caribbean Queen. Go fig'.

 

[Greg Cox]

I don't have a day job anymore. I used to work full-time as an editor for Tor Books, but these days I mostly get by on writing, plus a little freelance copywriting and editing. Basically, I've gone from being a full-time editor who writes on the side to being a full-time writer who edits on the side. (Richard Matheson, mostly.)

If you want to know how a lot of us broke into Trek writing, you should check out Jeff Ayer's book on the history of Trek novels, which quotes most modern Trek writers on the subject. In my case, the short version is that I started out selling to AMAZING STORIES and other magazines, wrote a non-fiction book on vampires and a young-adult time-travel novel, eventually did a couple of Batman short stories with John Betancourt, and met John Ordover when we were both working at Tor. When John moved over to Pocket, and suddenly had to launch an entire line of DEEP SPACE NINE novels on short notice, he remembered those Batman stories and recruited the Cox/Betancourt team. The rest is history . . .

 

[Therin of Andor]

Alcoholism for Fun and Profit by David Mack sold only 75,000 copies.

It was the research bill that killed that book.

 

[TGTheodore]

I earn whatever people at red left-turn arrows and the ends of off-ramps will pay me. It's tough writing 250 words during a traffic light cycle. Don't even get me started on the printing logistics.

WILL WRITE YOU TREK(LIKE) STORY FOR CASH.

--Ted

 

[DaveGalanter]

For example: Tell Me About the Monkeys by Dave Galanter sold 100,000 copies, while Alcoholism for Fun and Profit by David Mack sold only 75,000 copies. At first glance, Galanter's the success, right? But what I didn't mention is that Galanter's book had a print run of 500,000, while Mack's had a print run of 80,000. Plus, because the expectations were so high for Galanter, he got a much much bigger advance than Mack did, so the publisher's out a lot of money (plus they have 400,000 books collecting dust in the warehouse).

Meh. Should I be working on such a book that would be a secret. And a SURE success, as everyone loves monkeys.

 

[TGTheodore]

You know, maybe it's just me (and that usually means it probably IS), but I find discussion of specific figures to be a wee bit invasive and impolite.

If there are writers who don't mind discussing how much their specific checks are, that's fine, but to ask directly or reveal someone else's sales figures in a public forum rather than offline, seems well, a bit tacky to me.

And very little seems tacky to me ...

--Ted

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

For example: Tell Me About the Monkeys by Dave Galanter sold 100,000 copies, while Alcoholism for Fun and Profit by David Mack sold only 75,000 copies. At first glance, Galanter's the success, right? But what I didn't mention is that Galanter's book had a print run of 500,000, while Mack's had a print run of 80,000. Plus, because the expectations were so high for Galanter, he got a much much bigger advance than Mack did, so the publisher's out a lot of money (plus they have 400,000 books collecting dust in the warehouse).

Meh. Should I be working on such a book that would be a secret. And a SURE success, as everyone loves monkeys.

Change it to apes, and you might get some big movie cash for the film rights.