Prophecies are lame

[RoJoHen]

I don't know about you, but I am getting sick of prophecies in my stories. I think it's the main reason I didn't like the new "Alice in Wonderland." They introduced a prophecy 15 minutes into it and told me exactly how the movie was going to end. How am I supposed to care about anything that happens in between?

Some prophecies are handled all right. The Shanshu Prophecy in "Angel" was nice and vague. It told us that he would eventually find redemption and be rewarded by turning human again, but that's all it said. It never gave any specifics about how or when, and we never actually saw it happen.

I enjoyed the prophecy angle in BSG because it wasn't always obvious what was going on, and there was plenty speculation about what it actually meant.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I agree with you. I hated all the prophet and prophecy stuff in "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine", but I'm enjoying how it figures into the story of "Battlestar Galactica" as I watch it for the first time. I like the tension between the people who believe in prophecies and those who don't. I think this series shows how to use prophecies right...they don't simply make things predictable, but effectively generate some controversy and interesting conflicts between characters.

 

[Skywalker]

Ironically, it was prophesied long ago that RoJoHen would start this thread.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Prophecies are used far too often by writers as a kind of "get out of jail free" card to be played when they've written themselves into a corner, to convince everyone "I meant to do that."

 

[Trent Roman]

Yes, I must agree. Enough with destiny, magical thinking and salvationary 'logic', particularly in science-fiction. It might be interesting if there are clever twists in the manner of Greek oracles, but most times when they fall back on prophecy and that sort of thing it's just an indication that they don't really know how to move their story forward--as a story element, it's bland, superficial and insufficiently contested. That kind of mush-minded thinking is what ultimately drove nuBSG into irrelevancy. It does no favour to the characters, either--I want characters who succeed through determination and intelligence, not because 'they were meant to'; I want the protagonist to be the hero by virtue of his or her qualities, not by some kind of intrinsic power and fortuitous birth.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Count Zero]

BSG really drove the prophecy thing into the ground. At first, it was tolerable, but soon it evolved into a way to create faux tension and excitement. I felt it was often lazy story telling. That was one element of BSG that really bugged me. It also soured me on previous prophecy storylines that I liked or didn't mind, like the "he will knock four times" stuff on Doctor Who. (I watched all of BSG this year for the first time.) But that's a show involving time travel, so there's at least some explanation for prophecies that didn't exist in BSG.

 

[Goji]

I agree for the most part, and found Battlestar Galactica's prophecy storyline to be annoying in particular. But I oddly had no problem with the prophecy storyline featured in the last season of The 4400. Nobody came out and said it, but since pretty much everything else on the show was the direct result of people in the future mucking about in the past, I just assumed that the prophecy was too. Which would make it less about mysticism and fate and more about time travel being used as a tool to manipulate the characters. I find that idea a lot more interesting than the usual prophecies.

 

[Small White Car]

I agree with you. I hated all the prophet and prophecy stuff in "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine"

Now, see, that's the one time I DIDN'T mind it since they were, you know, dealing with aliens who knew the future!

That makes it less 'magical' and more 'good planning.'

I also enjoyed Harry Potter's use of it. The prophecy was solid, but it turns out the individuals involved weren't locked in. The fact that Neville could have been the 'chosen one' instead of Harry really appealed to me. That's, like, a 'sort-of' prophecy. The events were foretold but there's nothing saying it had to be Harry!

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Its just another example of lazy writing crutches.

 

[Small White Car]

Its just another example of lazy writing crutches.

What about the Marty McFly arc in Back to the Future 2 and 3?

He was supposed to give in to people calling him chicken...get in a car accident...ruin his life...maybe even get shot by Mad Dog Tannen. That was his destiny according to the films.

But he learned his lesson in time and didn't get shot or get into the drag race. He had some help from a time machine, but even so he was able to recognize his trajectory and change it. And don't say "well, that's just a character learning." No, they gave Jennifer the 'You're Fired' fax so we could see it change at the end of the film. We also saw his tombstone erase itself. Marty LITERALLY had a course laid out for him and he derailed it...two different times! That's not a character learning...that's a prophecy. Given to us in the form of a photo and a fax.

I don't think any of that is lazy writing.

 

[StarshipDefiant]

I don't mind such things if its thought out or a part of the show since the beginning, or near it, and not later on shoehorned in like it was always meant to be, or had always been some sort of guiding principle. The Pretender is a good example of this, I never recall anything about any sort of prophecy what so ever until the final movie when some sort of scroll 'predicts' everything that happened in the series, right down to Jarod's name and the organization, The Centre, that had kept him captive. Lame. BSG didn't do to good at it, either really, but again it seemed pushed in later on in the series.

Angel, IMO, it worked, because there were references to it in Buffy, the Vampire Slayer I think. If not, I know it was mentioned early on into the series, one of the first episodes Wesley appears easily, if not earlier then that. Even then, like someone else said, it was very vague, just that Angel himself would play a part in the Apocalypse and as a result, will become Human.

 

[payndz201]

A variation on prophecy that I particularly dislike is "the Chosen One". Which in 90%+ of cases means "Mary-Sue who will win because the author says so."

Obviously, heroes win because the author says so all the time. It's when it's spelled out right from the start (and conflicts with what we actually see of the hero) that it becomes annoying. "Despite being a whiny little dipshit who ignores the advice of people who know better and behaves in a selfish way that actively disadvantages the good guys, you will still get the girl, kill the baddies and save the entire planet because lo! It is written!"

One of the few interesting aspects of the Star Wars prequels was that Lucas warped Joseph Campbell's ideal of "The Hero's Journey" by corrupting his Chosen One. Although the impact was somewhat lessened because, well, we kinda saw it coming.

 

[RoJoHen]

Agreed about The Chosen One. That is also really lame. I don't necessarily mind it, but you need to keep it vague. As much criticism as BSG gets with its prophecy angle, people were still questioning in the final episodes whether or not Roslin really was "the dying leader." The prophecy was unclear and had room for interpretation. Some people thought maybe it was Adama or Starbuck, or even Galactica herself. The fact that is wasn't clear-cut actually made that prophecy bearable for me.

 

[StarshipDefiant]

Agreed about The Chosen One. That is also really lame. I don't necessarily mind it, but you need to keep it vague. As much criticism as BSG gets with its prophecy angle, people were still questioning in the final episodes whether or not Roslin really was "the dying leader." The prophecy was unclear and had room for interpretation. Some people thought maybe it was Adama or Starbuck, or even Galactica herself. The fact that is wasn't clear-cut actually made that prophecy bearable for me.

I'll give them that, by the end of the series;the final episode itself, there were about a half a dozen different, yet plausible interpolations of the so called prophecy. Several different people; or things; ultimately lead the fleet to Earth as we know it.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think the best prophecies are the ones that aren't completely written in stone, leave certain aspects to different interpretations, and don't necessarily say that the hero(es) will definitely win in the end. It sets up "the hero's journey," but not its conclusion...

 

[shivkala]

Count me in the camp that doesn't mind them if they are done well. By that I mean either vague enough that they allow the writers to lead us into thinking one thing and then totally pulling the carpet out and revealing we were thinking about it the wrong way. Or when they come through a being that logically would know the future (ie time travellers or Prophet-like beings who don't experience time the way we do). However, the prophecies that reveal everything that will happen clearly enough that it's a foregone conclusion, I can do without that.

As for the latter, I'll put it to Captain Sheriden:

Assuming it means anything! Signs, portents, dreams - next we'll be reading tea leaves and chicken entrails.

and Delenn:

Prophecy is a poor guide to the future. You only understand it when the event's already upon you.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

I don't mind prophecy when it's in a fantasy.

I actively dislike it when it's in science fiction.

I suppose that's because I want science fiction to be about science. Having characters singled out for certain events by supernatural forces is only OK in fantasy to me.

In some stories, the line becomes blurred because the prophecy is given a quasi-scientific foundation. In Dune, I could buy that there was a Chosen One superbeing because a conspiracy to "breed" that superbeing had been underway for centuries. If Muad'dib had just been "chosen by fate" or by supernatural forces, I would have thought that was lame and that would have knocked Dune down a couple of pegs to me.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I don't mind prophecy when it's in a fantasy.

I actively dislike it when it's in science fiction.

I suppose that's because I want science fiction to be about science. Having characters singled out for certain events by supernatural forces is only OK in fantasy to me.

In some stories, the line becomes blurred because the prophecy is given a quasi-scientific foundation. In Dune, I could buy that there was a Chosen One superbeing because a conspiracy to "breed" that superbeing had been underway for centuries.

Isn't that what they sorta did with Captain Sisko in DS9? Non-linear aliens went back in time and arranged things so that he later would be their chosen one (a.k.a. the Emissary)?

 

[Sykonee]

I always liked this exchange regarding prophecy in The Mummy Returns:

Ardeth: "This was all pre-ordained thousands of years ago."
Eveyln: "And how does the story end?"
Ardeth: "Ah, only the journey is written, not the destination."
Rick: "Convenient."

 

[BrotherBenny]

I enjoyed the prophecy in DS9, and nuBSG to some degree, but actively disliked it in Alias and there is some kind of prophetic nonsense in Lost, isn't there?

If it's done well, you don't really notice it all that much.