Property rights and commerce in Trek, some musings

[at Quark's]

^True.

That is, I don't believe humanity will change its nature in the first place, but I'm willing to suspend that disbelief just to enjoy Star Trek and take it as a given in that context.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I have my doubts you could regulate and have a planned/command economy across 8,000-light-years, especially since there would still be scarcities, like the one you bring up; real estate. Yes, there's new land available in off-world colonies, but (if we go by the way real estate works in the present-day) not all real estate is equal. A plot of land on Earth arguably doesn't have the same value as a similar area on a frozen Andoria or the deserts of Vulcan, the same way a house on a California beach has a different value than one in the middle of rural Oklahoma flat land.

True, different Real estate locations have different value, but given people need to work and would most likely rather work near their place of employment then to take some form of transportation, they get to choose where to live. Most folks won't want a commute that eats up lots of Federation Credits or Consumes alot of Energy.

That obviously relegates a persons residency to be some what close to their occupational place of employment.

One big problem with planned economies has been proper allocation of resources without a market to (in theory) regulate how much is produced and needed. The same issues would come up with anything that's specific to a certain area and can't be replicated. An obvious one is dilithium, since through Discovery we know it's a finite resource that will become limited and have a high demand.

The plan is to have a market to regulate. No where did I say you were forced to live in ___ area.
I just said limit 1x Residential Property per Adult Citizen who is a resident of that Planet/Region/Country/State/County/City/Town/etc.
That helps control the Demand side of the Supply / Demand curve in any 'Regional Real Estate market'.

You don't have too many potential outsiders buying into Residential Properties to treat them as Investment Real Estate properties to act as a store of Wealth.
We want to avoid the Vancouver Real Estate bubble that is going on, also avoiding what is happening in San Francisco & NY with their Real Estate inflation.

Most Couples or Polygamous Family Units would probably live together and raise their families.
That gives them some options where the extra Residential Properties that are owned by the other Citizens can be turned into Rental Units to gain some additional income for the family unit.

But another issue is something like specialized services that are specific to a certain place. How about a vacation on Risa? Does it cost anything to go there?

The Cost of Travel should still exist, it takes Energy & Matter Resources to move between places.
Doesn't matter if it's via StarShip / Shuttle / Transporter.
All of those methods of Transportation costs something.
That should factor into the ticket price for travel between planets or anywhere else.

Even if it doesn't and it's rationed, it's a finite resource. There's only so many hotels, with so many rooms, and so many hours and days in a year, and so many people that can provide "services" to guests.

That's why there should still be tradtional competition between hotels for the customer to stay.

How exactly do you ration out the equivalent of a trip to Disney (Sex) World to 150 Federation member worlds?

Booking of time between the Workers & the Guests along with how much it costs to participate in their services.
Everybody has a schedule, and they can scheduule their "Fun Time" and how much it costs for their services.

And that's even before we get into what kind of system you would need to compliment the people who come from non-Federation worlds to visit, since Quark is able to go to Risa too in DS9.

Conversion of Currency from their Worlds Currency Standards to UFP equivalent.

I'm sure the UFP already has a Currency exchange with the Ferengi Alliance.

Also, even if you are able to regulate the value of a Federation Credit within the Federation to control its value, trying to have it be worth anything beyond the Federation would become an issue.

That's true of any species you have never met and have not established common trade values for basic goods & services along with basic valuation of currency.
But lets leave that to the Economists, Scienctists, & Diplomats to regulate once we get past "First Contact".

This is why I think there's some new "economic" philosophy/reality we haven't figured out yet. For example, you could go with the Roddenberry concept of human nature changing that Picard touches on in First Contact, where the entire social science calculus of how humans behave in the pursuit of resources has changed so much that how people consume things don't obey present economic rules.

Of course, different rules for how the Economy works means people have to play the Economic Game in a different way.

Star Trek exists in a universe where on Earth the world's present-day religions have lost their influence. So it's not far of a leap to go if human society has shifted so far in that aspect, why couldn't have they totally shifted in other areas like economic behavior?

I'm basing my ideas of Regulation on countering human behavior and their more "Primal Selfish Instincts".

Having a more Regulated Economy that balances out against the Selfish Actions of an Individual that is trying to snowball the Economic Game for Personal gain w/o doing any "REAL Hard Work" is supposed to be "MUCH Harder" than before.

 

[Nyotarules]

I think 24th century earth population was 8 billion according to TNG FIrst Contact. There's probably decent social housing/apartments but if you want luxury then you use your federation credits to pay for it. In DS9 didn't Sisko buy land on Bajor to build his future home or was it a gift from the Bajoran state?

As for human nature, cultural values change but humans will always be humans.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I think 24th century earth population was 8 billion according to TNG FIrst Contact. There's probably decent social housing/apartments but if you want luxury then you use your federation credits to pay for it. In DS9 didn't Sisko buy land on Bajor to build his future home or was it a gift from the Bajoran state?

I'm sure Benjamin can afford the land on his StarFleet salary.

 

[kkt]

I think 24th century earth population was 8 billion according to TNG FIrst Contact. There's probably decent social housing/apartments but if you want luxury then you use your federation credits to pay for it. In DS9 didn't Sisko buy land on Bajor to build his future home or was it a gift from the Bajoran state?

As for human nature, cultural values change but humans will always be humans.

Sisko did buy land for his house - on Bajor which was not in the Federation.

 

[at Quark's]

I think 24th century earth population was 8 billion according to TNG FIrst Contact.

Minor nitpick - they mentioned 'nine billion', but that was the 'assimilated' earth (i.e. in the timeline we briefly saw where the Borg apparently assimilated Earth in the past). I don't believe a figure is mentioned for earth in the 'good' timeline.

 

[Shawnster]

Someone mentioned this earlier... How does holotechnology affect property values? With even a limited holo program an individual can have a beachfront property in the middle of New York City or a snow capped cabin in the middle of the Sahara.

Similar with transporter technology. Say I want to visit the real beach and not a holographic simulation. I can step into a transporter and instantly be at the beach or ski lodge. We see transporter commuting in Picard and hear it mentioned by Joseph Sisko on DS9.

How do property values change once the reasons for high property values can either be simulated anywhere or can be negated by ease of access technology?

 

[TheCaptainsLog]

Honestly if I had the ability I'd probably just replicate Maui Wowie and Alaskan Thunderfuck all day and chill in the local holodeck. I mean honestly that's what most people would do, admit it.

 

[at Quark's]

^ I've read theories on this board how humans on Earth probably degenerated into lazy scum that never leave their homes, probably don't even bother to get day clothes on, the only movement they get is between their holo-room and the replicator, and that the Starfleet types we see must be rare exceptions

 

[UssGlenn]

I suspect each federation member world has its own economic system. The Federation would help with currency exchange. So you pay to go to Risa, and someone has figured out that that translates to in Federation credits.

Earth/ humanity's system is unique in that they have figured out how to codify "reputation" into income. you "get credit" for contributing to society. But any scarce resources have their price set by the free market. but you can't "invest" federation credits, and one house per adult as suggested earlier is a good idea (that allows couples to have a vacation house). without the ability of corporations to buy up property as an investment, home prices would become stable.

 

[Nyotarules]

How do property values change once the reasons for high property values can either be simulated anywhere or can be negated by ease of access technology?

Since property value is generally determined by supply and demand, a simulation cannot replace the real thing. As for ease of technology, opening your door and seeing the beach in walking distance is a lot more impressive than stepping onto a transporter pad, unless its the 31st century, personal transporters that take you anywhere? Thats impressive!
Just a thought, maybe no one owns land on Earth its either rented or leased. I suspect there was a French revolution style execution of the landowning class and ultra wealthy during the barbaric post atomic age as per TNG Encounter at Farpoint episode. Or the majority of the 1% died in the nuclear war.
Wealth distribution on Earth most be like a diamond instead of a triangle as it is today.

 

[Citiprime]

The plan is to have a market to regulate...

In trying to wrap my head around this, the issue I have is that if you have "markets" in the way we mean an economic market currently, it would invariably lead to inequities. There would be some Federation citizens with "more" and others with "less," since within any market there's going to be people who lose their investments. And that should lead to class distinctions, where some citizens have more choices in what they can have and do than others.

I can't think of anything within Star Trek which supports something like that occurring on a societal level within the Federation, especially on Earth. I can't remember a character that everyone views as the "rich kid" from a "wealthy" family inside the Federation. For example, Bashir's father is depicted as failing at various positions in DS9, but you don't get the feeling that Bashir's family suffered from having more limited options growing up. If anything, they still had more than enough resources to travel outside the Federation to get their kid's DNA re-sequenced.

Another issue is regulating a market within the idea of what a "moneyless" society means. The US Federal Reserve's biggest tool in regulating the US economy is monetary policy. But, if there's no money, how can you have a monetary policy? There's no Federation central bank and no money to loan out. So there's nothing to set interest rates for, and that should lead to no way to control inflation or deflation.

Someone mentioned this earlier... How does holotechnology affect property values? With even a limited holo program an individual can have a beachfront property in the middle of New York City or a snow capped cabin in the middle of the Sahara.

Similar with transporter technology. Say I want to visit the real beach and not a holographic simulation. I can step into a transporter and instantly be at the beach or ski lodge. We see transporter commuting in Picard and hear it mentioned by Joseph Sisko on DS9.

How do property values change once the reasons for high property values can either be simulated anywhere or can be negated by ease of access technology?

Wouldn’t it be similar to the difference between going to the Sisko family’s restaurant for “real” food versus accessing a replicator?

Although, I can see a situation where going to a restaurant would be very expensive, since I have to believe there’s no large-scale farming or tending to live stock if most people eat through replicated food. It would be a niche market, with limited availability of resources, which under normal circumstances should make a meal at Sisko’s presumably an extravagant expense.

Depending on whether people in the 24th century put a value on realism, like some seem to value naturally grown food products, instead of Holodeck technology negating the value of real environments, there could be added incentive that within a normal market would lead to higher prices. Same would be true for a trip to Risa versus renting out a Holosuite from Quark.

Minor nitpick - they mentioned 'nine billion', but that was the 'assimilated' earth (i.e. in the timeline we briefly saw where the Borg apparently assimilated Earth in the past). I don't believe a figure is mentioned for earth in the 'good' timeline.

A real-world factoid to add to this ... Current UN estimates believe Earth's population should top-out around the start of the 22nd century at a little over ten billion.

Of course, if you lose a significant part of the population in World War III before that (either Pike's mention of a "third" of Earth's population dying in the war in SNW or Riker's statement of 600 million dead in First Contact), and then have an influx of alien visitors after joining the Federation, who knows how many people you end up with.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

In trying to wrap my head around this, the issue I have is that if you have "markets" in the way we mean an economic market currently, it would invariably lead to inequities. There would be some Federation citizens with "more" and others with "less," since within any market there's going to be people who lose their investments. And that should lead to class distinctions, where some citizens have more choices in what they can have and do than others.

True, the child of some Rich Person will have more, but the gap between the Rich, the common folk, & the poor won't be nearly as drastic as they are today.
That's why there are limitations & regulations into what a person can buy.

e.g. My desire to codify the limit of (1x Residential Property per Adult Citizen of stated Planet/Country/State|Province/County/City/Town/etc).
That really prevents the ability of outside forces from coming into Vancouver and buying up the properties

Canada is finally implementing a ban on Foreign Home buyers.
The difference between what this law is doing, and what I want is that mine is "PERMANENT / Forever". Not limited to a 2x Year ban on Foreigners.

This kind of law would help prevent the Supply of Homes from being Gobbled up by the Rich Outsiders who then Sky-Rocket local Residential pricing.

This would help with demand for the normal local Residents who Live/Work in defined (Planet/Country/State|Province/County/City/Town/etc).

Seriously, how many homes can 1x Person practically live in at any given time?
Realistically: 1x Residential Home per Adult Person.

You pick the home that fits your desires/budget/work situation. Then you're off to the races.

I can't think of anything within Star Trek which supports something like that occurring on a societal level within the Federation, especially on Earth. I can't remember a character that everyone views as the "rich kid" from a "wealthy" family inside the Federation. For example, Bashir's father is depicted as failing at various positions in DS9, but you don't get the feeling that Bashir's family suffered from having more limited options growing up. If anything, they still had more than enough resources to travel outside the Federation to get their kid's DNA re-sequenced.

I wonder where Bashir's family got all that Money/Resources? Maybe they inherited it? Maybe the Mother/Father was well off to begin with?

Another issue is regulating a market within the idea of what a "moneyless" society means. The US Federal Reserve's biggest tool in regulating the US economy is monetary policy. But, if there's no money, how can you have a monetary policy? There's no Federation central bank and no money to loan out. So there's nothing to set interest rates for, and that should lead to no way to control inflation or deflation.

That's why I don't believe the UFP is truly "Money-less".

The UFP Credit exists, there are more than enough examples dealing with currency within the UFP.

The end goal of the modern economy is different and there are many "Rules/Regulations" to tamper down on "Greed/Snow Ball" effects to let any one person grow "too Rich, too Quickly" without genuine hard work / innovation that they would have to bring society.

Somebody can't just be a lazy bum and rise to the top of their field.

They've got to work to be good at some field of employment.

 

[Shawnster]

As for ease of technology, opening your door and seeing the beach in walking distance is a lot more impressive than stepping onto a transporter pad, unless its the 31st century, personal transporters that take you anywhere? Thats impressive!

That's pretty much how it was by the time Ben Sisko was at the Academy. He beamed home

DS9 Explorers
SISKO: I remember, Jake, I wasn't much older than you when I left for San Francisco to go to Starfleet Academy. For the first few days, I was so homesick that I'd go back to my house in New Orleans every night for dinner. I'd materialise in my living room at six thirty every night and take my seat at the table just like I had come down the stairs.
JAKE: You must have used up a month's worth of transporter credits.

Now, granted, it cost transporter credits, but that's a financial matter. In a post scarcity society, why regulate transporter credits?

Picard showed commuters stepping into a transporter doorway as easy as stepping through a turnstile. No reason the other end couldn't be a transporter turnstile at the beach or on the moon.

There was a TOS era novel (or early movie era) in the 80s where this civilization carried remotes like we do phones, only these remotes beamed a person wherever they wanted to go on the planet.

Then there is the civilization from VOY "Prime Factors" where the native was on a date with Harry Kim and took him to another planet 40k ly away. That was just a brief walk. She went to that planet all the time.

 

[fireproof78]

Now, granted, it cost transporter credits, but that's a financial matter. In a post scarcity society, why regulate transporter credits?

Probably more for traffic and safety than financial. Millions of transportation transactions probably out a strain on the system sometimes.

 

[at Quark's]

Probably more for traffic and safety than financial. Millions of transportation transactions probably out a strain on the system sometimes.

Yes, or perhaps not even that, but a 24th century form of 'roughing it' - a way to build character in the cadets, that they can't always have what they want and have to carefully allocate those credits.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

This thread might interest you.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Kirk sold the house we saw in Generations, so someone bought it, no "providing" happening there. Going from that example people buy and sell homes on Earth, not being provided.

Scott in The Undiscovered Country said he "just bought a boat." Money and commerce exist.

Beverly made a purchase in Farpoint, Picard made a purchase in Captain's Holiday, money and commerce exist. Quark sold a shuttle on Earth in Little Green Men, money and commerce exist on Earth.

Kasidy Yates sought out business contracts, Humans work for money, and engage in commerce.

And the bounty hunters in that one DSC ep (I think it involved Harry Mudd) were paid in Federation credits.

Credits also exist in the MU as well, mirror Kirk tries to bribe Spock with them. Although in that case they're probably called Imperial credits.

 

[Tenacity]

Conversion of Currency from their Worlds Currency Standards to UFP equivalent.

And then convert it to the currency of whatever Federation planets currency you're heading to? Or just skip the Federation step.

In DS9 didn't Sisko buy land on Bajor to build his future home or was it a gift from the Bajoran state?

I would imagine accepting such a gift would get Sisko arrested and courts martialed.

Now, granted, it cost transporter credits, but that's a financial matter. In a post scarcity society, why regulate transporter credits?

Bandwidth?

SISKO: I remember, Jake, I wasn't much older than you when I left for San Francisco to go to Starfleet Academy. For the first few days, I was so homesick that I'd go back to my house in New Orleans every night for dinner. I'd materialise in my living room at six thirty every night and take my seat at the table just like I had come down the stairs.

Different that todays American military, cadets rarely/never leave academy grounds their first year.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

And then convert it to the currency of whatever Federation planets currency you're heading to? Or just skip the Federation step.

It's a one-way currency conversion, like how the Euro unified so many independent countries currency into one common currency.

The Federation Equivalent would do the same.