Well that "one man in one little ship" is what changed the timeline in the first place!
Property of Ambassador Spock [SPOILERS!!!]
- Thread starter WarpFactorZ
- Start date
Well that "one man in one little ship" is what changed the timeline in the first place!
Not deliberately.Well that "one man in one little ship" is what changed the timeline in the first place!
Spock was following Kirk's lead there. It's possible that if it had been just up to him to decide for himself, he might have made a different decision.
Restoring the timeline wasn't his call in that instance. In the real world, no one in their right mind would've went on the air stating it was okay to let the Nazi's occupy the world. Not in the 1960's.
He'd have to travel not only to the future, but also to the future of a different timeline. I don't think the slingshot effect works that way. A slingshot would place him in the future of the Kelvin timeline.
No, he'd have to travel to the past, to the moment he arrived or to the moment Nero arrived. He had 2 windows of opportunity to go back to the original timeline and try to preserve it.
Not necessarily. His action of going back, in and of itself, could cause a new timeline to be created.
Once Nero is in 2233, the change is in. The only place to prevent the Kelvin timeline or another alternate timeline is in the 2387 of the Prime timeline.
Not really. Spock was completely in favor of fixing their timeline according to this dialogue after Kirk prevents Edith from falling down the stairs:
SPOCK: Captain, I did not plan to eavesdrop.
KIRK: No, of course you didn't.
SPOCK: I must point out that when she stumbled, she might have died right there, had you not caught her.
KIRK: It's not yet time. McCoy isn't here.
SPOCK: We're not that sure of our facts. Who's to say when the exact time will come? Save her, do as your heart tells you to do, and millions will die who did not die before.
Now maybe Spock feels differently when he's older and realizes that it makes no difference what timeline he tries to save, trillions of lives will change either way.
Yes, that's why I used the word "try."
Besides, I think multiple timelines already exist (like the TNG episode Parallels), it just depends which one you happened to access.
No. (Oops...sorry for not multi-quoting into a single post but new posts are appearing as I respond to another.)
Umm, no. In STID Quinto Spock converses with Nimoy Spock on the bridge's viewscreen, publicly in front of the bridge crew, discussing the Spock Prime's knowledge of the future and origins from an alternate timeline. And indeed, in Beyond when discussing Prime's death, I was under the impression McCoy knew who he was.
And if you want to include the comics, Spock Prime is very public about being from an alternate future. Which never made sense to me, someone who's taken a solemn vow not to discuss the future sure does advertise the fact he's from there. You don't want to avoid discussing the future, don't tell your younger self and his dad who you are. Tell them you're cousin Selek.
Kirk set the parameters of their mission at the outset: "to set right whatever it was that McCoy changed." Spock is objectively advising his commanding officer how to best accomplish that goal. That's his duty. Again, it doesn't necessarily follow that he would have chosen to undertake the same mission in the first place if he were the one in command (and alone). But you're absolutely right that however Spock felt about that particular situation, he could have a different perspective on such matters more than a century later in his life.
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The way I rationalize Spock Prime not going back in time to alter the events of Star Trek 2009 (specifically to save Vulcan) is this: the timeline was a parallel timeline. It is stated that the original timeline still exists. Therefore, Vulcan in Spock Prime's timeline still exists. Basically, a new timeline (and essentially, a new universe) was created at the point of the Narada\Nero incursion, that didn't exist before. The thing that makes this different than the City on the Edge of Forever was that in that instance (and Star Trek First Contact for that matter) is that the Prime timeline was altered. In Star Trek 2009, the Prime timeline was not altered.
If Spock Prime were to go back and attempt to prevent that from happening, yes, he might save Vulcan in this parallel universe, but it might just wipe out an entire timeline\ universe in doing so. So, Spock Prime rationalized the Needs of the Few are outweighed by the many. Perhaps that is why he CHOSE to stay to to help New Vulcan rebuild, rather than use the Guardian of Forever to go back to his time. Basically, that was his Kobayashi Maru test. He failed to save Romulus, then his actions inadvertently created a new timeline, and was forced to watch Vulcan be destroyed. Then to add to that, if he tried to restore Vulcan, it would wipe out a newly-created universe. So, his penance was to help rebuild new Vulcan.
I just pulled that out of my ass, but that is what makes sense to me.
If Spock Prime were to go back and attempt to prevent that from happening, yes, he might save Vulcan in this parallel universe, but it might just wipe out an entire timeline\ universe in doing so. So, Spock Prime rationalized the Needs of the Few are outweighed by the many. Perhaps that is why he CHOSE to stay to to help New Vulcan rebuild, rather than use the Guardian of Forever to go back to his time. Basically, that was his Kobayashi Maru test. He failed to save Romulus, then his actions inadvertently created a new timeline, and was forced to watch Vulcan be destroyed. Then to add to that, if he tried to restore Vulcan, it would wipe out a newly-created universe. So, his penance was to help rebuild new Vulcan.
I just pulled that out of my ass, but that is what makes sense to me.
You'll have to expand on this. How can Spock ensure history unfolds as it did in the Prime timeline by stopping Nero in 2233?
I like this explanation of the Kelvin timeline.
Seems like he was going to try something like that in the Orci script for the third movie. Though it was supposedly via some doohickey instead of the slingshot methid
Spock goes back in time to either the point Nero came through or the point that he came through and somehow prevent those events from happening. If he can prevent himself from coming through (as the window opens), that will also keep Nero in the Prime timeline. How can he accomplish this? Maybe destroy Spock and his ship right when the window opens and then go through the opening that was created back to the Prime Timeline. If Nero isn't stopped at the same time, Spock can then use the slingshot effect again in the Prime Timeline and go back and stop Nero.
Yeah, sounds a bit convoluted but not any more ridiculous than some of the things that have gone on in Trek.
"Somehow"
And if it goes wrong, we're in a supremely dark reality where Nero succeeds and wipes out every Federation planet.
But then, even if it succeeds, where do we draw the line? Stop Romulus being destroyed in 2387. Stop the Xindi attack in 2153. Stop Ceti Alpha VI exploding. Stop Praxis exploding. Stop the Borg massacre at Wolf 359. Stop the Dominion War. Stop World War 3. Stop Voyager ever getting lost. Stop Genesis. Prevent Shinzon from killing the Romulan senate. Stop Kirk's death in Generations. Prevent the Romulan War. Stop Soran ever getting to the Nexus.
Imagine being the one who has to tell the victims of the Xindi, Borg, Khan or random space disasters that sorry, we won't save your loved ones the way we saved the Vulcans because they're not considered important enough in the grand scheme of things.
And if it goes wrong, we're in a supremely dark reality where Nero succeeds and wipes out every Federation planet.
But then, even if it succeeds, where do we draw the line? Stop Romulus being destroyed in 2387. Stop the Xindi attack in 2153. Stop Ceti Alpha VI exploding. Stop Praxis exploding. Stop the Borg massacre at Wolf 359. Stop the Dominion War. Stop World War 3. Stop Voyager ever getting lost. Stop Genesis. Prevent Shinzon from killing the Romulan senate. Stop Kirk's death in Generations. Prevent the Romulan War. Stop Soran ever getting to the Nexus.
Imagine being the one who has to tell the victims of the Xindi, Borg, Khan or random space disasters that sorry, we won't save your loved ones the way we saved the Vulcans because they're not considered important enough in the grand scheme of things.
Wherever the writers think it necessary to draw the line. They've gone back and changed timelines before. Look at "Yesterday's Enterprise" - should they have ignored Guinan and let things continue in their timeline? What if the Enterprise-C screwed things up even worse? Tasha Yar was sent back and created a whole new set of events, so the timeline ended up being changed anyhow. Maybe an even greater war takes place at a later time because of that.
