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Profits?

I don't really see all the confusion on the subject. Perhaps it's because I used to live in a communist country, but I don't think it's an impossible leap to go from today to Federation economy. The change in mindset is the absolute key (and atteinable within a few generations), everthing else is easy.
 
Yes, but what Pevonis said was he wanted to to be able to walk to work, personal preference. Not that he want to be able to beam there.

So, our hypothetical 24th century citizen wants a penthouse suite with a view of the Eiffel Tower and is located within walking distance of his or her workplace. That's a lot of constraints. Even Bill Gates would have some trouble finding a place that filled all those requirements.

With or without money, our hypothetical 24th century citizen would have to decide which of these desires were most important, and sacrifice one or more of them. Money isn't the issue at all in this case.

In the 24th century, the easiest thing to do would be to let go of the constraint of having the Eiffel Tower view from home. Paris could be easily reached by transporter. Of course, that does assume transporters are available to the public.


In the DS9 episode Explorers, Sisko states that he used to visit his father back in New Orleans so often, he burned through a month's worth of "transporter credits". Plus, transporters seem to be relatively restricted technology, considering how it can be used to violate one's privacy rather easily.

I see. When I watched that episode, I took it to mean that Academy students were restricted in their movements, because they're not allowed to leave campus freely and randomly, that it was teaching them a form of discipline. If cadets can beam from San Francisco to New Orleans every night for dinner, they're going to have quite a shock when assigned to deep space vessels and can't go home to daddy every night for a meal. It's a form of adaptation to Starfleet service.

As for privacy, again, that's a cultural issue that we may not agree with or understand. Beaming directly into a stranger's living room may be possible but considered extremely rude or perhaps even illegal.

I'll grant that 100% of the transporter activity depicted in Trek was Starfleet related. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a civilian-related transporter scene. Maybe I'm just missing one.

Still, I think it is incumbent on us to find a good justification for why civilians wouldn't be allowed to use transporters while Starfleet is - it would have some serious implications for the culture of Earth in the 24th century. Civilians can't be allowed to roam freely - they have to be restricted in their movements?

Plus, I think there are hovercars seen to be used in a few episodes throughout the franchise.

I recall seeing exactly one hovercar in the 24th century, in the episode "All Good Things", on the campus of Cambridge University. Sure, they may be ubiquitous, and that's fine. There's probably more than one way to get around in the 24th century. But if the choice is between driving several hours and transporting in a few seconds, which would you choose?

I think in First Contact, once Picard sees "Borgified" Earth, they state there is a population of 9 billion Borg on the planet at the time.

That's not really an informative statement about the Earth's current population, though; when Data made that statement, the Borg had assimilated Earth in the 21st century. By the 24th century, they could've bred or imported billions more people. It doesn't tell us anything about how many people are on Earth in the 2370s.

Plus, like I stated earlier, I figured, and I think it is reasonable to believe that the use of transporters is not something that can be used constantly by all individuals. You are correct that we don't know what might be desirable to civilians in the 24th century, but it can still be assumed plenty of people would enjoy having a home along the ocean, or in view of a major landmark.

If transporters aren't used widely or constantly, I've not heard a good argument for that situation. It strikes me as having serious implications for the freedoms of civilians in the 24th century. It would hardly be a paradise if people can't move around as they choose.

How would you figure out "reputation" meters for something like that? Sounds almost like a video game, haha. Anyway, the issue I see with that is that there will be plenty of people who conduct moral, but indiscreet lives. The teachers, doctors, engineers, artists, etc. that are perfectly good at their jobs, but they're not famous by any means, like Picard might be to the Federation as a whole.

Actually, it sounds like social networking. Everyone can know anyone else, anywhere, through social media nowadays. The world grows smaller all the time. Of course, social media is not something we've seen in Trek, but then we're way outside of canon at this point. The economics of the future have barely been described or depicted, and usually only in negative terms (it doesn't have money, it's "different").


We have that now, through television and radio. Millions of people watch sporting events, like the Olympics, or artistic events like musical concerts. Yet, even with this low-cost ability to view such events, people still fill stadiums and amphitheaters to view them live. I don't see that changing in the future.

Right, and people still will fill stadiums to see things live. I'm not saying there can't be a way to regulate and accommodate the distribution of scarce items, like seats to the Klingon Shakespeare. I'm just saying the people of Trek may have different rules for determining how they're distributed. Now, something like Olympic stadium seats are allocated based on the willingness of people to pay the price for the ticket. In the future, though, the "price" may be a relentless streak of generosity, or notoriety in a particular field, or lottery.

Instead of chasing down material wealth, the people of the 24th century could be competing for the things that we can buy now - status, fame, respect. How do we earn these things now? By trying to get rich, by trying to get people's attention, by working in fields that are financially lucrative. OK, so what if what is "lucrative" changes? What if to gain social status, you have to donate time to charity, or to write amazing plays, or to serve in Starfleet? If money isn't the goal anymore, but the positive view of the fellow humans and their respect, then how would things change?

I'm not saying I would find these types of changes a positive thing, or that we can do something like this now, or ever. What I'm trying to do is work within the canon of Star Trek. We can dismiss claims that "money doesn't exist", saying they're wrong or false or lies, but why? Warp drive, transporters, and human-alien hybrids are equally scientifically outlandish, but we accept them within the framework of the story, and even work hard to fit certain inconsistencies in, because these are features of Star Trek. If we dismiss them as impossible or outlandish, then we're saying we don't like Star Trek. Why dismiss the social side of the science fiction setting of Star Trek if we can accept these outrageous violations of physics and biology? Does a moneyless society really break our imaginations where warp drive doesn't?
 
So, our hypothetical 24th century citizen wants a penthouse suite with a view of the Eiffel Tower and is located within walking distance of his or her workplace. That's a lot of constraints. Even Bill Gates would have some trouble finding a place that filled all those requirements.

Actually I didn't say anything about penthouse suite or a view of the Eiffel Tower. I just said a comfortable house within walking distance of his workplace, something that plenty of people might desire now.

Those other two situations are other examples of limited commodities in a future with such boundless energy/resources.

I see. When I watched that episode, I took it to mean that Academy students were restricted in their movements, because they're not allowed to leave campus freely and randomly, that it was teaching them a form of discipline. If cadets can beam from San Francisco to New Orleans every night for dinner, they're going to have quite a shock when assigned to deep space vessels and can't go home to daddy every night for a meal. It's a form of adaptation to Starfleet service.

I'll grant that 100% of the transporter activity depicted in Trek was Starfleet related. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a civilian-related transporter scene. Maybe I'm just missing one.
Possibly, I've generally focused on DS9 as my favored series of Star Trek. I figured the limitations are set for everyone considering the various other, possibly more energy efficient transportation sources.

Still, I think it is incumbent on us to find a good justification for why civilians wouldn't be allowed to use transporters while Starfleet is - it would have some serious implications for the culture of Earth in the 24th century. Civilians can't be allowed to roam freely - they have to be restricted in their movements?

I recall seeing exactly one hovercar in the 24th century, in the episode "All Good Things", on the campus of Cambridge University. Sure, they may be ubiquitous, and that's fine. There's probably more than one way to get around in the 24th century. But if the choice is between driving several hours and transporting in a few seconds, which would you choose?
Well, if you have the ability to freely go to anywhere on the Earth, at any time, given to billions of civilians and military personnel, I can see issues. Specifically, I don't think there can be enough transport pads to handle such a massive capacity. I always viewed transporters as something reserved for emergencies.

I can't deny though, if I had free access to a transporter at any time, I'd abuse that system like crazy. Transport myself to some Parisian cafe in the morning, beam back to work, beam to Sicily to get some delicious Arancini balls in a bakery, beam back to work, beam to Texas to get a delicious steak, etc etc.


Why dismiss the social side of the science fiction setting of Star Trek if we can accept these outrageous violations of physics and biology? Does a moneyless society really break our imaginations where warp drive doesn't?
Well, in my case, my scientific mind is reading up articles in Popular Science and such. I'm not an engineer or a researcher, so I can accept things that more scientific professions cannot. When technobabble is said, I just accept it, even when translated into "regular" English, it's most likely nonsensical bullshit.

However, I'm in school to get a Political Science degree, the social side of Star Trek interests me greatly. Brainstorming, and discussing how the social and economic aspects of a post-scarcity society. Seeing how they deal with alien societies, or deal with internal issues is what interests me.

Just personal taste, I guess, lol.
 
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If transporters aren't used widely or constantly, I've not heard a good argument for that situation. It strikes me as having serious implications for the freedoms of civilians in the 24th century. It would hardly be a paradise if people can't move around as they choose.

Subspace Bandwidth. Unlimited energy and computation power would give everyone the freedom and right to be anywhere they wanted to be, but ten billion people wizzing round the planet permeats the medium and it all goes to pot.

Its all about demand planning. Off peak beaming costs less credits, popular destinations will cost you more credits. Mundane journeys to your home town might barely make a dint in your transporter budget, but doing a ring world and joining every News Years eve party on the planet would probably blow the years budget.

My view though on the money thing though. Everyone has a right to anything that can be given, but there are still assets that can be monetized if availability is finite. There are a limited number of street cafes with a view of the eiffel tower, so if you want one, you need to offer an existing proprietor something they can't get elsewhere. What that might be is down to the individual.

As for everyone else, what would you do if all your needs were covered. Plenty of food, booze, shelter, entertainment, and at no cost to anyone else. And if you don't harm or bother anyone, you can go anywhere, any-when. What would you do?

Earth is an all inclusive resort where even the extras are free, from cradle to grave. How do you spend your days?

Live roleplay? Disease and guilt casual free sex, drinking in the scheduled climate controlled sun? Dabble in politics?
 
Subspace Bandwidth. Unlimited energy and computation power would give everyone the freedom and right to be anywhere they wanted to be, but ten billion people wizzing round the planet permeats the medium and it all goes to pot.

Well, that's an interesting idea. Limited transmission bandwidths for transporters - I hadn't considered that. Still, we don't know that there are ten billion people on Earth in the 24th century. Whether ten billion or two billion, though, I suppose the traffic could be pretty heavy for the transporter network.

Though I wasn't necessarily envisioning people moving via site-to-site transport. I was imagining more of a hub system, like the airlines have now. You wouldn't beam from your living room to the base of the Eiffel Tower. You'd walk (or perhaps drive a hovercar) to the local transporter network hub, get in line for the, say, 4:15 PM transport to the hub in Paris, then walk (or take a hovertaxi) from the hub to the Eiffel Tower.

Private groups could have their own transporter networks, though. The United Earth Geological Survey, for instance, could maintain transporter platforms in its various offices for the staff to use if they need to travel from the office in New York to the office in Beijing for a meeting or consultation.

Its all about demand planning. Off peak beaming costs less credits, popular destinations will cost you more credits. Mundane journeys to your home town might barely make a dint in your transporter budget, but doing a ring world and joining every News Years eve party on the planet would probably blow the years budget.

Well...transporter credits were only mentioned in relation to Starfleet Academy, so I don't think we can necessarily assume that civilians have to deal with transporter credits.

As for everyone else, what would you do if all your needs were covered. Plenty of food, booze, shelter, entertainment, and at no cost to anyone else. And if you don't harm or bother anyone, you can go anywhere, any-when. What would you do?

Earth is an all inclusive resort where even the extras are free, from cradle to grave. How do you spend your days?

Live roleplay? Disease and guilt casual free sex, drinking in the scheduled climate controlled sun? Dabble in politics?

Well, I imagine that the bulk of the population is involved in what we'd consider hobbies now. Perhaps there's a great resurgence in the creation of art. Science and medicine, of course, would still be viable careers. And there's always Starfleet for the adventurous, and colonization efforts for the hardy pioneer types.
 
Subspace Bandwidth. Unlimited energy and computation power would give everyone the freedom and right to be anywhere they wanted to be, but ten billion people wizzing round the planet permeats the medium and it all goes to pot.
First sentence, from Ringworld, by Larry Niven.

“In the night-time heart of Beruit, in one of a row of general-address transfer booths, Louis Wu flickered into reality.”

Most of this next is pure conjecture on my part.

Your matter stream travels through a underground wave guide conduit (like a cable) to your destination. These over time have come to criss-cross the world. There's relatively little "through the air" beaming for most destinations.

Going pad to pad would be easier, use less power, less resources and be cheaper. Most transporting would be through a public station, Pads in private homes might be pricey. High traffic destinations would have a large number of pads. You set your destination into your padd (everyone has one, like a cellphone) you enter it into the system, go to a pad, and you're gone. Leaving a high volume location like a park or a shopping mall, each person on a hundred person transporter platform could be going to a different destination.

I kind of imagine it being something like getting on and off a large elevator. You wait for the incoming transportees to clear the platform, then you find a open pad.

Actual beaming from place to place without using a pad might be in some ways be like making a cellphone call today. If you're out in the open you are dematerialized and your pattern/matter stream goes to a near-by transporter tower, from there your matter stream travels through the underground wave guide conduit to your destination, up into a different transporter tower and finally rematerialized out in the open at the spot of your choosing.

If either your dematerialize or rematerialize point was really in the middle of nowhere, say a wilderness area, or a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean, your matter stream could be routed through a satellite in orbit, very expensive.

Well...transporter credits were only mentioned in relation to Starfleet Academy, so I don't think we can necessarily assume that civilians have to deal with transporter credits.
The academy might issue a certain number of transporter credit per quarter to the the cadets, who would have to pay for any additions travel out of their own pockets.

But it is also possible that using those credit would be all the outside travel the cadets are permitted. Modern day cadets at the military academies can't have a personal car until after the first year. And during basic training, you are restricted to base.

Beaming directly into a stranger's living room may be possible but considered extremely rude or perhaps even illegal.
Beaming into a private home would hopefully require the owners permission. Without the owner's express permission the control system won't even dematerialize you. You could only transport to locations that you would be permitted in to, it would not be like the console on the Enterprise where the target destination possibilities would be unlimited.

Emergency personnel like police medical, first responder types (which could include Starfeet) could over ride the permission provision. I would imagine most people wouldn't have a pad, with all the associated equipment and power use, in their private homes.

****************

With a Starfleet transporter, usual when someone is transporting there is a operator standing at a console who handles problems that spring up (occasionally Starfleet uses pure computer control). With the volume of traffic we're talking about on Earth there can't be a operator for each and every transporter move, these are highly automated, but there is probably a room full of operators somewhere waiting like 911 operators to handle emergencies.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a civilian-related transporter scene. Maybe I'm just missing one.
The only one that immediately come to mind is the office of Mister Lowry (name?), the civilian administrator if space station K7, in Tribbles. He had a two pad unit.

Earth in the 24th century is shown not wanting anything. Food can be replicated ...
Yes it can be replicated. But how common is this? Robert Picard wouldn't have one in his home. Chief O'Brien mother didn't use one, preferring to serve real food. Joseph Sisko served real food in his restaurant. The only time we hear of replicator food being eaten on Earth is from Keiko O'Brien childhood. We did see a replicator slot in Harry's San Fransisco apartment, but it wasn't being used.

Being on Earth, where they have easy access to real food, would people choose manufactured food instead?
 
Well, I can believe both a moneyless society and a warp drive.

One nice thing about being into paranormal research, one tends to actually see amazing things, and if I can see objects in the sky that can do L shaped turns, right angles, and sharp turns are incredible speeds, as well as 'wink' out and reappear elsewhere in a millisecond, I can believe in both a warp drive and a moneyless society. :)
 
I accept the warp drive, as well as some sort of moneyless, socialized system. Both of these are handwaving. Perhaps with near unlimited energy and replicators that the rule is

You must work at something, and show up. In return you have food, shelter, and free medical care.

How they solved freeloaders, well that the new future.
 
This is a fascinating thread. Btw I would still drive the hover car. I imagine scenic driving in the Utopia is quite nice. The concept of traffic is probably gone.
 
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