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Prime Directive? Yay-nay

The Prime Directive

  • Yay--it is such a great principle. And we need on Earth--NOW!!

    Votes: 15 34.1%
  • Nay--Nothing more than elite mumbo-jumbo.

    Votes: 29 65.9%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
Seeing how those same PD-inviolable disasters happened during TOS and TNG more than once per series, I'd say they're happening a lot more than you think and in a greater volume than just a few planets. The Pro-Interventionalists who want to abolish the PD would likely force Starfleet to actively search out the cosmos (within Fed boundaries or not) for every endangered world (no matter what level of danger) and demand they step in. And those ships and personnel wouldn't come from nowhere, they'd come from Starfleet's other duties like defense and such.

And it would sill take hundreds if not thousnads of ships working round the clock for any kind of evacuation/relocation, so even if it was only rare it still wouldn't be economically viable.

And your reasoning for the protection from natural disasters such as gamma ray bursts is akin to what if random aliens had stopped the meteor from wiping out the dinosaurs. Somehow I doubt humanity would've appreciated that.
 
Seeing how those same PD-inviolable disasters happened during TOS and TNG more than once per series, I'd say they're happening a lot more than you think and in a greater volume than just a few planets. The Pro-Interventionalists who want to abolish the PD would likely force Starfleet to actively search out the cosmos (within Fed boundaries or not) for every endangered world (no matter what level of danger) and demand they step in. And those ships and personnel wouldn't come from nowhere, they'd come from Starfleet's other duties like defense and such.

And it would sill take hundreds if not thousnads of ships working round the clock for any kind of evacuation/relocation, so even if it was only rare it still wouldn't be economically viable.
I concede that the writers utilize the PD for drama, and probably more than they ought to.

If the Federation economy really would become so strained by the incessant helping out, then a balance would surely be reached. The Federation electorate is a collection of holo-coddled, replicator-fed semi-infants and a smattering of Starfleet superhumans... as long as their quality of life remains unchanged, they'll be willing to help, but if it is affected in the merest, they'll debudget the Starfleet Rescue Division in a heartbeat.

For the same reason, the United States of America is willing to make half-hearted efforts to prevent famine and halt disease. Of course, we wind up doing tremendous good regardless of our half-assedness, but we don't dedicate our every resource to it. Nor, perhaps, should we.

And your reasoning for the protection from natural disasters such as gamma ray bursts is akin to what if random aliens had stopped the meteor from wiping out the dinosaurs. Somehow I doubt humanity would've appreciated that.
Dinosaurs aren't intelligent and intelligent life only existed as a potentiality in the future. The PD doesn't even apply to M-class worlds with no intelligent life on them. If something like Starfleet existed 65mya, they'd have colonized us already with a few hundred libertarian xenophobes in purple jumpsuits.

On the subject of PD violations, the hugest one might have escaped the attention of some compilers: Devil in the Dark. In this, a colony of miners tries to eradicate the strange indigenous intelligence of Janus IV, before being stopped by the Enterprise and Kirk--who suggests that the miners work with the natives, because the miners will benefit from the natives' tunnelling abilities, and apparently because the natives will benefit from not being shot with phasers anymore, but also the advanced technology of the Federation.

And truly, I think Devil captures the real spirit of Trek, which is the seeking out strange new worlds and new civilizations thing. The Horta truly live in a strange new world... with the PD hanging over our shoulder, we never even set foot on Janus IV, or rapidly evacuated once we ascertained the horrendous damage we did to Horta society.

I'd like to raise a final point about the assertion that alien technological assistance might coddle a less-advanced civilization, just because their own capabilities weren't stretched to reach an arbitrary technological level...

No one invents their own technology. Not all of it. This computer I use, the car I drive, the building I live in: these might as well have been designed by an alien intelligence, because they weren't designed by me. Have I been coddled, not to have been given a computer until I could design one myself, just like it is improper under the PD to give a society warp drive until it can build one itself?

To apply a different standard to a civilization than to an individual seems odd. The whole point of a civilization is to raise up its individual constituents who could not possibly command such powers on their own but can do so collectively. The Federation, having realized the truths of equality, recognizes that those who work do so for the good of the whole as well as for the individual.

Sure, there are good reasons to deny access to certain technologies to certain civilizations, yet using self-attained warp as an indicator of civilized potential is rather arbitrary. Look at the Romulans. Or the Cardassians. Or the Gorn. Or virtually any species but the humans and the Vulcans. Or even them, they can suck as badly as anyone.

The warp barrier test simply can't be predicated on the notion that a warp capable society is sufficiently civilized and thus ready to come under Federation tutelage. There is far too much evidence to show that even a civilization which developed warp on its own is perfectly capable of having barbaric ideas about how to behave.

The warp test is predicated, rather, on the fact that once a society is warp capable, the Federation simply can no longer restrain their access to the wider galaxy, and the cynicism that dictates the Federation is better off with bound allies than with potential enemies. Hence we have civilizations which are Federation members or affiliates but who have values contrary to those which the Federation stands for.

The Prime Directive attempts to balance the evils of interference and non-interference but is clearly a failure as a policy. Even when non-interference works, it produces ridiculously bad societies, like the Son'a or Ardanians, as often as it does mature ones, like humans. When it doesn't work, it leads to extinction of unique and valuable life. Maybe we have an instinct to "coddle" because "coddling" works.

I'm curious, would the Prime Directive apply to a society which, through modern-day means ascertained the existence of habitable nearby worlds and sent a generation or sleeper ship to go check it out? Say a big relativistic arkship glides into Sector 001 one day and says "What's up?" Do we pretend we're not home?
 
Sometimes nasty things like said meteor collisions and other disasters are ultimately good for a civilization to grow and change. Adversity and all that are necessary things for any civilization to go through if they want to become stronger and better. If you baby them through everything they may never realize their own potential as a culture because they never had to really go through anything bad to begin with.

Yeah! Those goddamn Indonesians should have known that the tsunami was going to be good for them in the long term! And I still can't believe how much those people in New Orleans like to whine about the fact that their city drowned and over a thousand people died. Babies!

:rolleyes:

Seems to me that the 24th Century Starfleet has a really bizarre, paternalistic understanding of the Prime Directive that goes against its original intent:

The PD is there to force Starfleet officers to respect the autonomy of other cultures and to refrain from interfering with their internal processes. It wasn't originally there because Starfleet and the UFP thought that they were more evolved than other cultures and therefore superior enough to judge for them whether or not they were "ready" to learn about the outside universe or "worthy" of contact with the UFP. It was there because the UFP recognized that it might not be sufficiently enlightened to be capable of interacting with pre-industrial or pre-warp civilizations, or other civilizations that it is more overtly powerful than, without succumbing to the temptation to exercise that power over that less-powerful or less-technological society.

The Prime Directive, in other words, used to be about recognizing our limits, not about judging theirs.

And in that form, I think the Prime Directive is a good directive. It forces the UFP not to dominate less-powerful cultures, but it doesn't actually prevent contact in all situations provided that we allow the other culture to interpret the contact on their own cultural terms and don't interfere with their internal processes. It forces the UFP to respect foreign states' autonomy without preventing trade and cultural exchange and alliances -- or humanitarian aid in the event of a horrific disaster.

Mutual autonomy, not isolationism. Mutual respect, not standing in judgment of other cultures. That's what the PD was originally about and what it ought to be about again.

It's the sort of policy the United States and its allies could stand to learn a thing or two from.
 
"If the US had had a Prime Directive, and also the ability to instantly rescue all the Jews from the internment camps, before the US was in the war, would they, if President, had done so?"

Look at the dialog in Pen Pals. They clearly show that, if someone asked for help, they'd have a duty to help. The Prime Directive is to prevent the Federation from taking the initiative to interfere, it doesn't prevent them from helping in all cases.
 
Seems to me that the 24th Century Starfleet has a really bizarre, paternalistic understanding of the Prime Directive that goes against its original intent

More like, they saw how the TOS PD still wasn't working and non-warp societies were still getting messed up so they scaled it up to the point that the worlds out there will all develop and survive due to their own strength and fail due to their own failings or inability to survive whatever the universe throws at them that's not caused by outsiders.

As for non-warp spacefarers, they'd make contact if they went out and looked for them or made it into space like that. It's just that Warp seems to be the common form of FTL travel for the advanced civlizations so it's more of a standard. But that doesn't make it the only thing that allows them to meet Spacefarers.
 
The Prime Directive. Those three words can cause such interesting conversations, and have ever since Trek came around. It has such lofty notions, and yet our "Captains" find ways to go around it, or in Kirk's case, to just smash through it.

TOS is a product of its time, the 60s. The Prime Directive is very fitting for that time, but in the here and now does it resonate as loudly? Would you let an entire civilization be destroyed by volcanos simply to let 'nature' take its course?

If we had a PRIME DIRECTIVE here on Earth, and we started using it right now, just think what that would mean. If we found the lost tribe of the Myans in the deep forest, and only twenty of them were left, and they all had a treatable illness but would die unless treated? Would a Picard of this time just let them die because 'we can't interfere?'.

If the Romulans/Borg/Dominion/Cardassians seemingly don't have a Prime Directive, then why do the Feds? If the Romulans suddenly reformed, became peaceful, and were competing to get new member worlds, they would win. Just think of the selling points.

Picard: Join our Federation. We are peaceful.
Applicant: What if there is a world, non-member, pre-warp, that faces destruction from a comet and you could stop it; would you?
Picard: It is against our principles to interfere with the natural evolutoin of the universe. We hold this principle very dear to our hearts.

Romulan: Join our new peaceful Romulan Empire. We are now a peaceful force in the galaxy.
Applicant: What if there is a world, non-member, pre-warp, that faces destruction from a comet and you could stop it; would you?
Romulan: Yes we would. We value life above our principles.

I think, IMO, most applicants would join a peaceful Romulan Empire.

Oh well..here is the poll...

PRIME DIRECTIVE

Nay

Yay

In TOS The Prime Directive meant whatever Capt Kirk wanted it to mean; depending on the situation. If a civilization was deemed "stagnant", Kirk would take ye olde wrecking ball in the form of Enterprise phasers and torpedoes.

Capt. Picard's version of the Prime Directive is a pretty hard sell. Even the Halkans in "Mirror, Mirror" are pragmatic by comparison. Capt. Janeway seemed to have more realism. She put her officer in the brig for 30 days, busted him and reinstated his rank in one years' time.

Who says the RSE doesn't already use your point as a counter offer?:rommie: I doubt every Romulan loves the smell of napalm in the morning. They might have epic poetry about it, but they don't want to live it.

No doubt many of the Romulans' allies are akin to Soviet satellites or client states. Many others may be voluntary allies and/or trading partners. In "Nemesis" they were shown as at least having good relations with the Tholians. The Tholians of Trek didn't strike me as a submissive species. A prospective ally of the Romulans might be told that the RSE would be their big, strong friend to protect them from bullies like the Federation, Klingon Empire, and Cardassian Union.
 
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I would imagine that the Prime Directive was originally made as a lesson learned from the cultural suppression effects of imperialization and colonialism (such as the spread of Christianity or European exploration). But as far as saving people goes? I doubt that would factor in much into the Prime Directive (at least, a decently-thought one).
 
Depends, if the civilization didn't know about alien life and had brought about its' own pain via warfare then it's pretty much their own mess to clean up. And if you protect them from every last little thing they'll never have faced adversity and grow as a society/culture.
 
Depends, if the civilization didn't know about alien life and had brought about its' own pain via warfare then it's pretty much their own mess to clean up. And if you protect them from every last little thing they'll never have faced adversity and grow as a society/culture.

Indeed, basically things they were never in control of in the first place, like a natural disaster, then sure. Would the inability to achieve their own world peace yet have warp drive mean that the Federation could indeed contact them? All this and more ...
 
Put it this way....

what would you do if you see a big colony of Ants living in your backyard?

Let them be?

Or bring out the Bug spray?

:))
 
Depends, if the civilization didn't know about alien life and had brought about its' own pain via warfare then it's pretty much their own mess to clean up. And if you protect them from every last little thing they'll never have faced adversity and grow as a society/culture.

Indeed, basically things they were never in control of in the first place, like a natural disaster, then sure. Would the inability to achieve their own world peace yet have warp drive mean that the Federation could indeed contact them? All this and more ...

Seeing how we have seen nonunified worlds in Trek that the Feds talk to, I'd say the "No contact til Warp" thing isn't the "they're ready now" barrier we think it is. Having Warp just means it'll be impossible for them to not run into someone eventually so the Feds are basically "okay they're coming whether they're nice or not so we might as well not hide anymore". It's not the "warp means they're good and nice" it's "warp means they'll know they're not alone anymore so no point in hiding it".
 
The PD was definitely a crutch in the 24th C. series - it was an excuse for the writers not to commit to a controversial stance while pretending to address it. The PD wasn't about not interfering with potential catastrophes or outright extinction events - it was about not imposing the Federation's technology or standards upon other cultures that were not yet capable of dealing with the sociological ramifications.

Wayyyyy back, in the TrekArt forum, we had a contest for potential new Trek series; I thought a great idea would be a show that was equal parts J.A.G., Law & Order, CSI and Mission: Impossible. Let the Prime Directive be truly explored, and show what the Feds do to either prevent or correct its violation - even by outside parties (say, the Ferengi come in and exploit a young civilization, and the Feds go in and try to fix it, while also holding the Ferengi accountable)

Starfleet G.O.1
 
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Seems to me that the 24th Century Starfleet has a really bizarre, paternalistic understanding of the Prime Directive that goes against its original intent

More like, they saw how the TOS PD still wasn't working and non-warp societies were still getting messed up

It's a huge, and incredibly paternalistic, mistake to judge the effectiveness of the PD on whether or not developing cultures are "messed up." For one thing, it goes against the very spirit of the PD to make such a judgment -- who's the Federation to call a culture "messed up" if their system works for them?

But primarily, the PD isn't designed to ensure any one particular type of outcome. It isn't there to ensure societies aren't "messed up." It's there to ensure that the UFP doesn't use its power to dominate less-powerful societies. It's there to preserve those societies' right to self-determination -- even if it means that the result is something the UFP wouldn't necessarily approve of.

Again, the PD is about mutual respect and self-determination, not about trying to mold foreign cultures into something we approve of.
 
Precisely, which means the Feds don't interfere with other cultures and even counts if the natives are at war or going through some kind of natural disaster. They have to go through those kinds of self-inflicted or naturally-inflicted things if they're ever going to grow up.
 
I wonder if a lot of the PD-good/PD-bad debate stems from a conflict of real-world ideology. On reflection, I know my PD-bad stance arises consequentially from my support of real-world interventionism. I just don't really believe a right of self-determination exists or ought to exist above an individual level.
 
I think the Prime Directive tends to fall silent when it comes to civilizations on a relatively equal development level - it's primarily meant to discourage interference in the internal affairs of other civilizations or the natural development of lesser civilizations, but clearly there are certain moral 'wrongs' that it allows the Federation to 'right' (especially if your name is James T. Kirk. :))

So on that basis technically the U.S. could have intervened in Germany to stop the Holocaust.

I agree. The basic principle(s) behind the PD are good, but I agree that the writers have often used them poorly. Particularly in TNG and more modern series. In some respects it would be better to have a somewhat more practical standard; even the best probably wouldn't have a solution to every single possible situation.
 
Just ask yourself one thing. What Would Kirk Do?

Totally unmake an entire alien civilization he knows nothing about and hamstring its leaders while forcing them to accept some half-assed solution he spent fifteen minutes thinking of, then beam back to his ship, crack some jokes and cruise off into the sunset without ever thinking another thought about his handiwork.

It might be because of Kirk that the directive became Prime in the first place. Wanna bet that not long after Enterprise' departure, Starfleet arrived at Sigma Iota to find the entire inhabitants had used reverse-engineered copies of Starfleet phasers to annihilate themselves?
 
I wonder if a lot of the PD-good/PD-bad debate stems from a conflict of real-world ideology.
Real world ideology is what spawned the PD in the first place. It's called "White Man's Burden," an old term from the days of the British Empire. In usage at the time, it basically described the obligation of "privileged" races to use their technological and cultural superiority to take inferior races under their wing and lead them on the proper path to enlightenment. The justification for this was the same that is sometimes used today by American imperialists and is often quoted by the PD-Bad camp: that having great power means having the responsibility to use it to help everyone else.

The problem is history doesn't reflect the British Empire did anything of the kind, nor did the empires of France or Germany or Spain or Portugal. Under the banner of "enlightening" the rest of the world they ran roughshod over the rights and traditions of dozens of cultures, started devastating wars and actually hampered more than helped the nations they set out to enlighten. In the end, those empires collapsed when their wards one after another fought for independence from their masters in terrible wars that cost humanity a small fortune in blood and treasure.

As Picard told the Borg, "Our culture is based on freedom and self-determination." This means having the right to make ones own decisions, as well as the right to make ones own mistakes. The principle is perfectly fine, even if Starfleet officers don't always understand the thinking behind the policy.
 
It might be because of Kirk that the directive became Prime in the first place. Wanna bet that not long after Enterprise' departure, Starfleet arrived at Sigma Iota to find the entire inhabitants had used reverse-engineered copies of Starfleet phasers to annihilate themselves?

The Prime Directive was already Prime when Kirk and Co. introduced the concept.
 
Sometimes nasty things like said meteor collisions and other disasters are ultimately good for a civilization to grow and change. Adversity and all that are necessary things for any civilization to go through if they want to become stronger and better. If you baby them through everything they may never realize their own potential as a culture because they never had to really go through anything bad to begin with.

Yeah! Those goddamn Indonesians should have known that the tsunami was going to be good for them in the long term! And I still can't believe how much those people in New Orleans like to whine about the fact that their city drowned and over a thousand people died. Babies!

:rolleyes:

Seems to me that the 24th Century Starfleet has a really bizarre, paternalistic understanding of the Prime Directive that goes against its original intent:

The PD is there to force Starfleet officers to respect the autonomy of other cultures and to refrain from interfering with their internal processes. It wasn't originally there because Starfleet and the UFP thought that they were more evolved than other cultures and therefore superior enough to judge for them whether or not they were "ready" to learn about the outside universe or "worthy" of contact with the UFP. It was there because the UFP recognized that it might not be sufficiently enlightened to be capable of interacting with pre-industrial or pre-warp civilizations, or other civilizations that it is more overtly powerful than, without succumbing to the temptation to exercise that power over that less-powerful or less-technological society.

The Prime Directive, in other words, used to be about recognizing our limits, not about judging theirs.

And in that form, I think the Prime Directive is a good directive. It forces the UFP not to dominate less-powerful cultures, but it doesn't actually prevent contact in all situations provided that we allow the other culture to interpret the contact on their own cultural terms and don't interfere with their internal processes. It forces the UFP to respect foreign states' autonomy without preventing trade and cultural exchange and alliances -- or humanitarian aid in the event of a horrific disaster.

Mutual autonomy, not isolationism. Mutual respect, not standing in judgment of other cultures. That's what the PD was originally about and what it ought to be about again.

It's the sort of policy the United States and its allies could stand to learn a thing or two from.

I like your style...you would have made a great lawyer!! And I'm serious!!!

Rob
 
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