Prejudice and The Katric Ark.

[indranee]

I think it means just that. an ability to erect a "shield" around your mind. nothing comes in, nothing goes out - depending, of course, on the perfection of it. from what I've read in Trek novels, it's a routine exercise Vulcan children are taught. what is interesting is if Humans can be taught this as well. I've always assumed that it takes a certain kind of mental discipline and acumen to do that, as with the mindmeld. I think mindmelding is ALL about shielding or the lack of it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think it means just that. an ability to erect a "shield" around your mind. nothing comes in, nothing goes out - depending, of course, on the perfection of it. from what I've read in Trek novels, it's a routine exercise Vulcan children are taught. what is interesting is if Humans can be taught this as well. I've always assumed that it takes a certain kind of mental discipline and acumen to do that, as with the mindmeld. I think mindmelding is ALL about shielding or the lack of it.

Can't say I recall anything on film about that. I can see errecting sheilds to keep out a psychic attack, but to keep emotions in? Seems to me emotional control is totally internal. And it has to he learned. I've a feeling many of Vulcan psychic techniques predate the Surakian Revolution and are unrelated to emotional control.

 

[indranee]

I think it means just that. an ability to erect a "shield" around your mind. nothing comes in, nothing goes out - depending, of course, on the perfection of it. from what I've read in Trek novels, it's a routine exercise Vulcan children are taught. what is interesting is if Humans can be taught this as well. I've always assumed that it takes a certain kind of mental discipline and acumen to do that, as with the mindmeld. I think mindmelding is ALL about shielding or the lack of it.

Can't say I recall anything on film about that. I can see errecting sheilds to keep out a psychic attack, but to keep emotions in? Seems to me emotional control is totally internal. And it has to he learned. I've a feeling many of Vulcan psychic techniques predate the Surakian Revolution and are unrelated to emotional control.

that old shebang about only film being canon no longer exists. the writers of ST09 borrowed heavily from the novels to reconstruct Kirk and Spock's (not to mention other stuff) past/future/whathaveyou. it's now folly to ignore the books. I heartily recommend any and all Trekkies to seriously dabble in some of the major/better ones.

agreed on the pre-Surakian mental disciplines. from what we've learned, Surak taught control of emotions but probably rudimentary emotional discipline existed from Vulcan time immemorial, something he built on.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I am not aware of any canon evidence that Vulcan emotional control has anything to do with biology. Nothing onscreen has ever said that.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I think it means just that. an ability to erect a "shield" around your mind. nothing comes in, nothing goes out - depending, of course, on the perfection of it. from what I've read in Trek novels, it's a routine exercise Vulcan children are taught. what is interesting is if Humans can be taught this as well. I've always assumed that it takes a certain kind of mental discipline and acumen to do that, as with the mindmeld. I think mindmelding is ALL about shielding or the lack of it.

Can't say I recall anything on film about that. I can see errecting sheilds to keep out a psychic attack, but to keep emotions in? Seems to me emotional control is totally internal. And it has to he learned. I've a feeling many of Vulcan psychic techniques predate the Surakian Revolution and are unrelated to emotional control.

that old shebang about only film being canon no longer exists.

Um yeah it still does exist. Just because they borrow some stuff from the books doesn't mean the books themselves are canon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Indeed, the information is usually in a different context than it was in the books, so how could entire books or bits not used in the film be canon?

 

[indranee]

thing is, it's now a very gray area. there is no hard and fast rule anymore regarding the books NOT being canon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Thats for Paramount to decide. So far, no change has been announced. The folks who would know (the authors) are still stcking with the books aren't canon. Announcing a new policy would appear presumptuous. I'm sure its not the first time something has drifted over from the books.

 

[indranee]

Thats for Paramount to decide. So far, no change has been announced. The folks who would know (the authors) are still stcking with the books aren't canon. Announcing a new policy would appear presumptuous. I'm sure its not the first time something has drifted over from the books.

I am not deciding for YOU you can decide for yourselves.

all I know is that now there is a much greater gray area than ever before due to THIS particular set of writers. ask them, if you want. don't take MY word for it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I assume the question has come up, otherwise you wouldn't mention it. So link or quote? Of course they have no contol over what outside of their scripts is canon. Still up to Paramount and CBS.

 

[indranee]

well, for one, before the movie came out, Kurtzman talked about all the novels they'd read (and he's read them ALL -- even more than I have which is saying something lol) and what they borrowed and how much influence they've had in terms of storyline and canon and Trek lore. it was on trekmovie and I'd have to find it. gimme a few days.

 

[Nerys Myk]

How does that translate into the books being canon or canon is now a gray area? it just mean they are looking at the books for story elements. The elements used would be canon, not the stories themselves.

 

[indranee]

it means that some of the stuff that was in the books and ONLY in the books is now canon because it's in the movie. hence, I say that there's now a greater gray area. we cannot simply dismiss something because it's in a book. it may or may not be used in the future movie(s). if it is, it may very well become canon. ergo, there's no hard and fast rule anymore. that's what I am saying.

EDIT: btw, when I say "books", I mean the elements in the books. of course a WHOLE book would not be canon LOL. unless it was deemed such.

 

[Pauln6]

Number One was a human(?) woman with tight control of her emotions but even she dispalyed more emotion than the average vulcan and a powerful telepath maintained that her control was largely a pretence. However, that was before a lack of emotion was officially part of the vulcan back story. Diana Muldaur played a human who had been trained in vulcan mental disciplines and she certainly wasn't in control of her emotions.

Current thinking is that perhaps as much as 50% of our behaviour and personality is genetic so it makes sense that a vulcan's intense emotions and ability to control them would have some kind of genetic component. Since we've seen no other races even attempt to adopt such a lifestyle this seems like further anecdotal evidence to support this.

Janeway pointed out that that logic can be used justify almost anything. Prejudice, for example, is logical is the prejudice is founded upon empirically proven facts. So if humans are dumber than vulcans based on a vulcan-designed IQ test, they might indeed be acting logically by inferring that Spock was disadvantaged in some respects. Their inability to see the whole as more than the sum of the parts is a well-known vulcan shortcoming.

Oh, and I am being prejudiced when I say all this I suppose. Damn - it's very easy.

 

[indranee]

^great post

 

[Nerys Myk]

it means that some of the stuff that was in the books and ONLY in the books is now canon because it's in the movie. hence, I say that there's now a greater gray area. we cannot simply dismiss something because it's in a book. it may or may not be used in the future movie(s). if it is, it may very well become canon. ergo, there's no hard and fast rule anymore. that's what I am saying.

EDIT: btw, when I say "books", I mean the elements in the books. of course a WHOLE book would not be canon LOL. unless it was deemed such.

The hard and fast rule is still: If it shows up on screen its canon". Hikaru being Sulu's first name was in the books, it didn't become canon until Sulu said it on screen. Kirks parents being George and Winona didn't become canon until it was shown on screen. The same rules are in place for ST09 as they were for STVI. Nothing has changed. Things from the books and TAS will pop up in Live Action Trek from time to time. When they do, they become canon. There is no new gray area.

 

[indranee]

it means that some of the stuff that was in the books and ONLY in the books is now canon because it's in the movie. hence, I say that there's now a greater gray area. we cannot simply dismiss something because it's in a book. it may or may not be used in the future movie(s). if it is, it may very well become canon. ergo, there's no hard and fast rule anymore. that's what I am saying.

EDIT: btw, when I say "books", I mean the elements in the books. of course a WHOLE book would not be canon LOL. unless it was deemed such.

The hard and fast rule is still: If it shows up on screen its canon". Hikaru being Sulu's first name was in the books, it didn't become canon until Sulu said it on screen. Kirks parents being George and Winona didn't become canon until it was shown on screen. The same rules are in place for ST09 as they were for STVI. Nothing has changed. Things from the books and TAS will pop up in Live Action Trek from time to time. When they do, they become canon. There is no new gray area.

eggsactlee!

from now on...anything goes. it wasn't that way in the past 30 years. the books were pretty much left alone. as in, not borrowed from. a separate universe, if you will.

sigh... gee... why is being on the BBS so tiring?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Star Trek VI came out in 1991. Do the math. Its been that way for at least 18 years.(probably more). Nothing has changed. Still the same deal.

The books will continue along their seperate ways, building on what is established on screen til something on screen contradicts them. Then the books will reflect that version of continuity. The writers of the onscreen stuff will cherry pick the books,fanon and other apocrypha as they have done in the past. Same as they've done for decades.

 

[indranee]

ST09 changed all that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

ST09 changed all that.

In what way? Pre ST09, writers use stuff from the books. ST09, writers use stuff from the books.