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Praxis...

Kor

Fleet Admiral
Admiral
How plausible is it for the lunar body of the home planet of the whole Klingon empire be "their key energy production facility" with lots of mining operations?

And would its destruction really threaten to deplete Kronos's ozone layer in fifty years?

For comparison, how plausible is mining on our own moon, and what if it exploded?

Kor
 
How plausible is it for the lunar body of the home planet of the whole Klingon empire be "their key energy production facility" with lots of mining operations?
Very, I'd say - they are a paranoid empire, so they would want to keep a key supply close to their home even if there were much richer pickings in distant star systems. And it's unlikely that they could mine an entire moon empty of its key resources within just a couple of centuries.

It might also be that no culture can become a star empire unless it has certain key materials available at its home system. Perhaps Praxis blew up because it contained energetic minerals necessary for warp drive (dilithium might fit the bill, although opinions vary)?

Although perhaps it was because Klingons had stacked it full of powerplants making use of imported fuels (and used those for refining the local materials). We can also take "overmining" literally and say that their security department deployed far too many land mines to repel intruders, and caused a chain reaction when a Romulan or Federation spy stepped on one of those. :p

And would its destruction really threaten to deplete Kronos's ozone layer in fifty years?
We don't know if it's a case of ozone depletion: Spock's words were "deadly pollution of their ozone". Ozone is a deadly poison, so possibly the planet would be polluted by excess ozone because of the explosion. Might be "their" ozone from the upper atmosphere (where it actually does some good), forced down by the calamity.

Certainly an energetic phenomenon would create ozone out of oxygen where it's needed the least, in the lower atmosphere (just like ordinary cosmic radiation creates it in the upper atmosphere but fails to penetrate deeper down). Whether that would still be "their" ozone is a case of semantic wrangling, to make sense of jargon the writers themselves clearly didn't quite understand...

For comparison, how plausible is mining on our own moon, and what if it exploded?
Luna is great for obtaining light metals and oxygen, which are both quite useful for space industries. It can also be used for harvesting exotics such as cosmic helium-three, which is trapped in lunar soil and easily extracted but is a pain to gather here on Earth, what with the atmosphere being in the way. But Star Trek level industries might be more interested in heavy metals, and would be able to mine gases from gas giants.

The Moon exploding would be a problem in terms of the explosion itself; the mere fragmenting of our natural satellite would matter little, with a few boulders semi-harmlessly impacting Earth but most no doubt just forming an orbiting cloud that gradually ground itself into nice dust rings. Today's artificial satellites would hate that, but Trek technology again would easily cope. Whatever effect there was on tidal forces could be shrugged off by the human civilization, even if some other lifeforms here might complain.

If what exploded there was big enough to remove half the moon from existence altogether, one might expect there to be all sorts of exotic damage to nearby planets, though. No telling what, until we know more about the nature of the explosion.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Via the computer game, Star Trek: Klingon Academy, the Klingon Empire had another larger source of energy production in a system near a black hole. This system was destroyed during one of their Civil Wars just a few years before TUC. The resulting loss of this system's resources results in the Empire turning back to Praxis and overmining it to make up for the loss of several planets with of resources over the short term while Klingon starships head out to find new planets to gain resources from to stabilize the Empire. Praxis destruction from overmining was supposedly because the output needed was far beyond the normal levels of production for this one moon.
 
Or then the Klingons overmined to get an edge in their ongoing cold war with the Federation. Or then the Klingons overmined simply because they didn't know what the limits were.

It's a bit difficult to see how mining could make a moon blow up, no matter whether there's a lot of it or just a little. Did the Klingons mine with explosives, and used a bit too much of those, a bit too carelessly? The result would probably still be just a large crater rather than a shattered moon...

Yet Spock doesn't claim that overmining alone blew up the moon. It was "overmining and insufficient safety precautions". Perhaps the former (that is, the hurry involved in overmining) is what led to the latter, which in turn led to the explosion. Because the Klingons were so busy mining, they didn't watch the gauges in the big powerplant that would have told them that their futuristic power source was about to explode...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Of course, though, Praxis did not have a very normal explosion. It threw out a flat, radial subspace shockwave which miraculously smashed the Excelsior (presumably) many light-years away. I would think there was a enormous generator of some sort which went critical. Centuries of tunneling mines could have made the moon structurally unsound, especially if it was their primary resource.

One thing I would like to point out that our man Timo overlooked in post #2, is that our moon acts like a gravitational anchor to keep our axial tilt stable. If it were gone, the axis would wobble wildly, if slowly. The axis could roll ninety degrees pointing a pole at the sun in a matter of centuries. Such an orientation would have a dramatic effect on all species of plant and animal life. The lack of our moon would therefore be a potentially enormous ecological catastrophe. Would it lead to human extinction? I dunno. I think it could probably be dealt with, especially with Star Trek technology. But it would be a huge, huge deal in any case.

--Alex
 
Would the same be true of Qo'noS? Most planets we know of do quite nicely without a large companion, not tilting either wildly or mildly for lack thereof...

Half of Praxis would have departed the immediate vicinity of Praxis one way or another. The other half is apparently still there, though, and not doing the Space:1999 thing... At least not immediately and observably (since Sulu's officer can "confirm the location" if not the existence).

Timo Saloniemi
 
How plausible is it for the lunar body of the home planet of the whole Klingon empire be "their key energy production facility" with lots of mining operations?

How is it plausible to confirm the location of Praxis but not the existence of it? The following lines always bothered me:

SULU: Mister Valtane, any more data?
VALTANE: Yes sir. I have confirmed the location of Praxis, sir, but...
SULU: What is it?
VALTANE: I cannot confirm the existence of Praxis.

That makes no sense. That's like saying that I can confirm the location of my car but not the existence of it. :wtf:
 
The context is that of the earlier scans done by Valtane...

Sulu wants to know what hit them. Valtane determines that it was a shockwave from certain coordinates. He then jumps to the conclusion that these coordinates are those of Praxis, which is quite a leap considering the cosmic distances and all. He no doubt will continue to work on those scans and hope to pinpoint the source - and eventually he does, confirming the location indeed is Praxis exactly, and not merely something in the general vicinity.

It's only at that point that the additional concern arises that while the location is exactly the one the star charts quote for Praxis, spot on, there's little or nothing there at those coordinates...

Sure, it sounds funny in isolation, but it's not completely unreasonable in terms of what Valtane ought to be doing and saying at the time.

In terms of the car analogy, let's say you hear a loud bang outside and see a cloud of smoke. Your hubby says "I think it comes from our car", and then checks it out, ascertaining "Yes, it definitely came from where our car was - but I can't see the car any more".

Timo Saloniemi
 
Would the same be true of Qo'noS? Most planets we know of do quite nicely without a large companion, not tilting either wildly or mildly for lack thereof...

....

Timo Saloniemi

We don't know enough about Qo'noS to hazard a guess.

And I should also point out that as far as obliquity is concerned the changes are so far only simulated mathematically. While measurements of the Earth's tilt have been made going back to the Arabs in the Middle Ages, the Greeks in Classical times, and residents of India even before that, observations of other planets have been much more recent. Changes in Earth's tilt can be projected millions of years forward and backward, but, naturally, the results are based on the model you use. In fact, some models suggest that the Earth's tilt would actually become more stable in absence of the Moon, but my understanding is that it's a minority position.

As for other planets, some models can show that Mars has a chaotic obliquity. And we know that dramatic changes can happen based on the current orientations of planets in our system. Uranus has an axial tilt of 97* and Venus is rotated totally upside-down with its tilt of 177*. I find it note worthy that Venus has no moon. I dunno what Uranus' excuse is, though...

--Alex
 
Well, good old Immanuel Velikovsky would have us believe that the two facts are intimately related... (And involve remarkable changes in orbit within historical times, but the heresies are interesting enough even without this nuance!)

Praxis apparently is explosion-prone in all timelines. We get little idea of the scale of the moon in ST6, but ST:ID shows an immense object that either is in danger of crashing onto Qo'noS in a matter of days and annihilating the planet, or is safely distant but significantly larger than the "mother planet"...

Timo Saloniemi
 
How plausible is it for the lunar body of the home planet of the whole Klingon empire be "their key energy production facility" with lots of mining operations?

How is it plausible to confirm the location of Praxis but not the existence of it? The following lines always bothered me:

SULU: Mister Valtane, any more data?
VALTANE: Yes sir. I have confirmed the location of Praxis, sir, but...
SULU: What is it?
VALTANE: I cannot confirm the existence of Praxis.

That makes no sense. That's like saying that I can confirm the location of my car but not the existence of it. :wtf:

I went back to Ohio
But my city was gone
There was no train station
There was no downtown
 
What I have a problem with is if that explosion was as big as implied in the movie and Praxis was a moon of Kronos why wasn't the planet (or at least the side facing the moon) severely devastated? Perhaps the planet has some heavy duty deflector/shields to protect it they normally keep up but still an explosion of that magnitude should have dome more than just mess up their atmosphere in a couple of years...
 
That only really becomes an issue in ST:ID, as prior to that the term "Klingon moon" could just as well have meant (and I assumed it did) a moon somewhere in the Klingon solar system (not just one in orbit of Kronos)

Otherwise, that planet would have got the full force of the awesome FTL shockwave!!!!
 
^Only if the planet was in the plane of the shockwave. It could have easily missed.
 
Furthermore, we can postulate that a wave propagating in subspace does no damage whatsoever to matter existing in normal space.

But while the energies travel at FTL speeds within subspace, they also leak out of there to realspace, where they continue to propagate at much slower speeds.

Perhaps the subspace, FTL ring, propagating according to the mysterious rules of that realm, begat a series of realspace, sublight rings along the way, explaining how something very slow and narrow can hit the Excelsior smack on very far away from Praxis very soon after the explosion. It's not the main wave, but merely one of the several daughter waves. (And the preceding, invisible thing that rattled Sulu's tea cup to pieces was the very broad subspace wave rushing by, perhaps?)

The navigator of the Excelsior may be increasing the odds of impact by flying within the same subspace layer where the unseen FTL ring propagates, in preparation of making use of that layer when the ship soon goes to warp for the homeward journey... The ship isn't really astronomically unlucky for being in the specific hundred-meter corridor where the wave moves, but merely slightly unlucky in being the same very broad subspace layer and drawing the ire of the realspace manifestation of the wave.

Timo Saloniemi
 
One suspects the ring effect is a representation of a 720 degree bubble of energy expanding out from Praxis. Instead of expanding sphere, we get to see just a slice of it as a ring. (Rings of destruction look cool and don't block out the rest of the explosions and stars like a bubble would)
 
^ 720 degree?

And Generations showed a "sphere of destruction" just fine.
 
Well, 720 degrees or four pi is the traditional way to describe spherical coverage, although it's not all that intuitive.

Agreed that spheres would work. And Trek is such a visually oriented piece of entertainment that I certainly want to be able to believe in what I see. Yes, even in ship-to-ship fights taking place just half a dozen ship-lengths away... Rationalizations via technobabble are a separate issue.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I always thought Praxis was full of some naturally ocurring, highly energetic mineral that, this being Star Trek, of course could only be dilithium.

Due to the square-cube law (ot radius/perimeter of a circle if that shockwave was indeed planar), I can't see how it could have been to turn the (very far) Excelsior upside-down without obliterating the home planet (much closer) at the same time.

Probably basic Math is different in Subspace (yikes!).

How that influenced the Klingon homeworld, I can't make something else up.

Spock's speech in VI about an "ozone layer" and "pollution" is very confusing. Do Klingons use much CFCs? What that has to do with their moon? Was not the problem the loss of theiy "energy production facility" as Sulu had stated?

Is there a scientist on the house?
 
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