Praising Allah in the trek universe

[Nerys Myk]

But divorced from the kind of prejudicial argument Min Zife is making, just as a factual question, are there any sympathetic Christian characters lately? I haven't really been looking for it, but I can't think of any.

In the S.C.E. series, there was Diego Feliciano, who was a Cuban-born Catholic. In his tragic final scene in Wildfire, his last act is to recite the "Hail Mary" en Español.

In Vanguard, there was Father McKee, the pastor of a nondenominational Christian chapel aboard Starbase 47.

And it's strongly implied that Vanguard's commanding officer character, Commodore Diego Reyes, is a man of faith based on his invocation of the Psalms during the Bombay's memorial service in Harbinger.

So, to be blunt, Min Zife's assertion that Christianity has never been depicted in the Star Trek novels, or depicted sympathetically, is complete bullshit.

non-demonational, spoken in another language and IMPLIED by Diego.. that's weak sauce Dave. Give me a devout english speaking human who prays and puts his faith in God.

All the chapels I went to on base (USAF) were non-denominational. We had a Episcopal Chaplin who made use of Lutheran material and my family were Methodists.Other denominations and faiths also made use of the chapel. Why English? Do the majority of Christians speak it? Are Christians who do not speak English less Christian?

 

[Mage]

Min Zife, as a Christian myself, I hope you will also recognize the horrors and atrocities commited in the name of our Lord during the centuries.
We have a rather dimwitted politician in the Netherlands who once commented that if you take all the violent parts out of the Koran, you are left with something as thick as the weekly Donald Duck. Unfortunatly, the same can be said for the Bible. He, ofcourse, neglected to mention that, since anti-Muslimism is a big part of his political statement.

Again, I am a Christian, but I'm also smart enough NOT to judge an entire religion on the actions of a group that is still a minority compared to the entire Muslim/Islamic religion. Christians have been responsible for the deaths of God knows how many people through the centuries. Please be smart enough NOT to make unfounded comments on a religion if you don't know everything about it.

It's so easy to attack what you don't understand, and unfortunatly, most attacks on the Islam are made by people who don't know everything about it. Yes, there are some pretty horrible things in the Koran, and some people follow it to the letter. But the same can be said about the Bible. There are groups of Christians who basicly treat women as second-class citizens, because they feel that's what the Bible says. Should we do something to liberate these women as well then, since that is completely against equel rights for sexes in our society, right?

In your first paragrah you said recognize all the horrors christians have done then your your next you say the horrors done in the name of Islam pale in comparison.

No, I didn't say that. You want it to say that, because you have a vested interest in proving your point and will not listen to others. So you twist their words so they suite your line of reasoning.
Any reason you feel the need to do this?

 

[Christopher]

Star Trek has always tried to be a vision of the future that was open to everyone, not just one narrow group. In the '60s, its integrated crew gave hope for the future to African- and Asian-American viewers. Geordi La Forge was a symbol for viewers with disabilities. And so on. True, it's sometimes fallen short of that ideal -- the demographics of the future are still disproportionately Anglo-Saxon, there's never been a canonical gay character, etc. -- but the ideal is still there, underlying it. Part of being a Star Trek writer is presenting a view of the future that's inclusive and multicultural. That's as much a fundamental ingredient of the mix as warp drive or Starfleet. If you're looking for a fictional franchise that only celebrates white, heterosexual, English-speaking Christians, then Star Trek is not the franchise for you by a long shot.

 

[Min Zife]

Min Zife, as a Christian myself, I hope you will also recognize the horrors and atrocities commited in the name of our Lord during the centuries.
We have a rather dimwitted politician in the Netherlands who once commented that if you take all the violent parts out of the Koran, you are left with something as thick as the weekly Donald Duck. Unfortunatly, the same can be said for the Bible. He, ofcourse, neglected to mention that, since anti-Muslimism is a big part of his political statement.

Again, I am a Christian, but I'm also smart enough NOT to judge an entire religion on the actions of a group that is still a minority compared to the entire Muslim/Islamic religion. Christians have been responsible for the deaths of God knows how many people through the centuries. Please be smart enough NOT to make unfounded comments on a religion if you don't know everything about it.

It's so easy to attack what you don't understand, and unfortunatly, most attacks on the Islam are made by people who don't know everything about it. Yes, there are some pretty horrible things in the Koran, and some people follow it to the letter. But the same can be said about the Bible. There are groups of Christians who basicly treat women as second-class citizens, because they feel that's what the Bible says. Should we do something to liberate these women as well then, since that is completely against equel rights for sexes in our society, right?

In your first paragrah you said recognize all the horrors christians have done then your your next you say the horrors done in the name of Islam pale in comparison.

No, I didn't say that. You want it to say that, because you have a vested interest in proving your point and will not listen to others. So you twist their words so they suite your line of reasoning.
Any reason you feel the need to do this?

Hatred of muslims
hatred of the hatred of christians.

 

[Christopher]

You don't hate Muslims. You hate the false image you have in your mind of what Muslims are. I doubt you've ever actually known a Muslim, or realized that someone you knew was a Muslim. Hate blinds us to the truth. And you've demonstrated emphatically today that your beliefs are profoundly far removed from the empirical truth.

Here's an essay I think you need to read, although I doubt you'll allow yourself to open your mind enough to think about what it says, even though it's written by a fellow Christian:

http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

 

[Lonemagpie]

Hatred of muslims
hatred of the hatred of christians.

Not a Christian, then?

I mean, you seem to have missed out on the "love thy neighbour" message that the old boy liked to put about...

But it's nice of you to give Bin Laden what he wanted- an angry face he could use to spark the war he wanted between Islam and the rest of the world.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Hatred of muslims
hatred of the hatred of christians.

Try turning the other cheek.

 

[Mage]

In your first paragrah you said recognize all the horrors christians have done then your your next you say the horrors done in the name of Islam pale in comparison.

No, I didn't say that. You want it to say that, because you have a vested interest in proving your point and will not listen to others. So you twist their words so they suite your line of reasoning.
Any reason you feel the need to do this?

Hatred of muslims
hatred of the hatred of christians.

Ah, an ignorant then. Well, like I said, I am a Christian, but also not an ignorant. Atrocities have been commited in the name of religion by Christians and Muslims throughout the ages. And probably by a lot of other religions throughout all the centuries. I believe in God and Jezus. That doesn't mean I condone everything that has been done in their name by zealous individuals who twisted the word of God to suite their purposes. That's what happening in the Muslim world right now, as it happened in the Christian world centuries ago during the Crusades. Think of that what you want, I am done arguing with someone who's only motivation to start a topic is hatred. I feel pity for you, and hopefully one day you will mature enough to see the folly of your ways.

 

[Greg Cox]

Give me a devout english speaking human who prays and puts his faith in God.

Why? So you can see yourself reflected in a ST novel and feel validated? Does your own faith really require that?

You can't. You were fired.

Okay, Marco didn't dignify that cheap shot by refuting it, but that doesn't mean I can't.

Marco wasn't fired. He was laid off during the economic downturn, like thousands of other Americans. And he's now lending his enthusiasm, experience, and editorial expertise to Tor Books. And how exactly does that invalidate his opinion on this topic?

And if you're looking for a Star Trek novel that's all about hating Muslims . . . well, that's not what's Star Trek's about.

 

[David Mack]

non-demonational, spoken in another language and IMPLIED by Diego.. that's weak sauce Dave. Give me a devout english speaking human who prays and puts his faith in God.

I don't work for you, so don't presume to tell me what to write. And the fact that you don't consider Spanish-speaking Catholics to be Christians is not only absurd — it's evidence of either mental illness or extreme stupidity on your part.

Henceforth, you'll get nothing from me except my scorn for your narrow-minded attitude and your self-professed ignorance and bigotry. ETA: Abandon those, and perhaps we can discuss this again in more genteel terms.

 

[Greg Cox]

The TNG novel Guises of the Mind by Rebecca Neason features a group of nuns as visitors aboard the Enterprise and portrays Christianity in a decidedly positive light.

No surprise, considering that Rebecca used to be a nun!

 

[Sci]

As soon as modern trek novel respectfully refers to jesus I'll lose my grudge. But the sugar coating of Islam makes me angry when the snide smirks of christians continues.

It is perfectly fair to say you'd like to see Christians represented as visibly as Muslims in TrekLit -- though it's not like Muslims are particularly visible in TrekLit; there are one or two characters that occasionally say "Praise Allah," and that's about it.

It is completely unreasonable of you to say such bigoted and hateful things about Muslims, just because you want more visible Christians.

As I understand it, the Eastern Coalition is basically China. (So says the ST:FC commentary. In the film script, all references to the ECON were originally China, and were changed at the last minute.) So even if the ECON started the war, one can't blame that on Islam, since the Chinese government is quite hostile to all religion even today.

Indeed. In fact, The Sundered makes it clear that a democratic Muslim Bloc comprising the nations of the Middle East had allied with the United States and European Union, and was itself the target of the Eastern Coalition's nuclear wrath during the May Day Horror of 2053 which marked the start of World War III.

So I think it's pretty clear that Star Trek's vision of World War III is founded upon good old fashioned nationalism and militarism, not Islamic extremism.

Ok, so, Min Zife came in here with a rather intolerant post, I think we all can agree. But he does raise an interesting question - can anyone think of sympathetic Christian characters in TrekLit?

I think it may be reasonable to argue that Christians are slightly less visible than Muslims in modern TrekLit (and if there is a disparity, the disparity is very slight; unlike Min Zife, we should not pretend that a few minor characters occasionally invoking the name of Allah makes Star Trek a work of Islamic fiction) because of the fact that Star Trek is the product of a predominantly Christian society where Christianity is generally assumed and only non-Christian faith is generally stated. This means that often, asserting a character's Christianity carries the risk of seeming to re-enforce Christian domination of society rather than to simply exemplify another religion that peacefully co-exists as equals with other religions.

Given David Mack's statements in this thread, I'd certainly consider Diego Reyes to be the most prominent Christian in TrekLit.

non-demonational, spoken in another language and IMPLIED by Diego.. that's weak sauce Dave. Give me a devout english speaking human who prays and puts his faith in God.

Bullshit. Fleeting allusions to the characters' faiths is all we ever get for the Muslim characters. I'm sorry, but it's not like we've gotten a central Muslim character whom we see praying towards Mecca five times every day and considering whether or not the theological concept of jihad is applicable to battle with the Klingons or Borg, or making a special effort to travel from Cestus III to Earth in order to make Hajj once in their lives, or what the existence of powerful god-like entities such as the Prophets/Wormhole Aliens says about Islamic concepts of monotheism, or any other particularly Islamic concern. We get fleeting references to the Muslim characters faith when they say "Thank Allah" or whatnot, and that's it. Which is about all we've gotten from the Christian characters, too.

I do think it's reasonable to argue that Christians have been slightly less visible in modern TrekLit, but you're not asking here for Christians to be portrayed in the same manner as Muslims. You're asking for greater visibility and attention for Christians than for Muslims. You are, in other words, demanding Christian domination, not Christian equality.

All the chapels I went to on base (USAF) were non-denominational. We had a Episcopal Chaplin who made use of Lutheran material and my family were Methodists.Other denominations and faiths also made use of the chapel. Why English? Do the majority of Christians speak it? Are Christians who do not speak English less Christian?

That would seem to be Min Zife's implication; perhaps the millions of Christians living in Spain and Latin America, and the millions of Christian Latino Americans, are somehow less legitimately Christian than those who "talk American?"

Habla pendejadas, of course.

Why? So you can see yourself reflected in a ST novel and feel validated? Does your own faith really require that?

You can't. You were fired.

Okay, Marco didn't dignify that cheap shot by refuting it, but that doesn't mean I can't.

Marco wasn't fired. He was laid off during the economic downturn, like thousands of other Americans. And he's now lending his enthusiasm, experience, and editorial expertise to Tor Books. And how exactly does that invalidate his opinion on this topic?

And, Marco has since written a short Star Trek novel entitled The Ruins of Noble Men. Which means that he's actually in the exact same boat as David Mack -- a writer who has written freelance novels for Pocket Books and could write more freelance novels in the future.

* * *

Two notes:

1. For all that Min Zife seems upset that there are characters in TrekLit who have brown skin and invoke Allah on occasion, I have to say that I'm not aware of any explicitly Islamic content in most TrekLit novels where Allah is invoked. As I understand it, "Allah" is simply the Arabic name for "God," and Arabic-speaking Christians use the same word for God that Arabic-speaking Muslims do. Now, granted, Captain Atish Khatami is Persian rather than an Arab, and Min Zife seems primarily upset about this particular character. But (and mind you, I haven't read past Reap the Whirlwind yet in the Vanguard series) -- does not the possibility remain that one could also interpret Khatami or other Allah-invoking characters as Arabic-speaking Christians, even if the original creative intent was that they be Muslims?

2. For the record, lest Min Zife forget, these are some Christian teachings about conflict resolution and how to relate to other people:

1 And seeing the multitudes, [Jesus] went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

<SNIP>

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

<SNIP>

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

I don't see anything in there about how it's okay to stereotype or dislike Muslims, or call them a backwards civilization, or hold them all responsible for terrorists, or to say or think any of the other horrible things you've said about Muslims in this thread.

 

[Greg Cox]

Agreed. As I keep pointing out, it's not like the typical Star Trek character wears his or her religion on their sleeve. Khan may have been briefly identified as a Sikh, but he never came off as particularly religious. His motives were entirely secular, like the majority of human characters in Star Trek . . . .

 

[Therin of Andor]

My real question is will Islam really exist in the 23rd and 24th century?

Why not? How often in world history have entire religions been wiped out? I imagine even religions that have faded in popularity still have some faithful practitioners.
http://www.religionfacts.com/big_religion_chart.htm

1. For all that Min Zife seems upset that there are characters in TrekLit who have brown skin

And takes on a pseudonym of a 24th century man with blue skin.

 

[xortex]

Lee Quan started WWWIII, right?

This message brought to you by the Better Bomb Builders of America.
'We make the better bomb.'

 

[Christopher]

It is perfectly fair to say you'd like to see Christians represented as visibly as Muslims in TrekLit -- though it's not like Muslims are particularly visible in TrekLit; there are one or two characters that occasionally say "Praise Allah," and that's about it.

Oh, there's been a little more than that. My Trek debut, SCE: Aftermath, featured Cemal Iskander, the civilian Director of Earth Security, as a devout Muslim whose faith was an important part of his character and his motivations.

Indeed. In fact, The Sundered makes it clear that a democratic Muslim Bloc comprising the nations of the Middle East had allied with the United States and European Union, and was itself the target of the Eastern Coalition's nuclear wrath during the May Day Horror of 2053 which marked the start of World War III.

Certainly possible, depending on how the current sociopolitical upheavals in the Mideast pan out. There's definitely a democratic ferment in that part of the world, though it remains to be seen whether it will prevail. Certainly Islam is compatible with democracy, since it teaches that no one but God should have authority over the individual (and there's a long tradition of philosophical debate in Islam over the legitimacy of human rulers and governments).

As I understand it, "Allah" is simply the Arabic name for "God," and Arabic-speaking Christians use the same word for God that Arabic-speaking Muslims do.

Strictly speaking, it's Arabic for "The God," as in the one and only, and yes, it is the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians; Muslims simply consider Muhammad to be God's next prophet after Jesus, bringing revelations that somehow got overlooked or misunderstood by the older faiths.

...does not the possibility remain that one could also interpret Khatami or other Allah-invoking characters as Arabic-speaking Christians, even if the original creative intent was that they be Muslims?

Technically, yes. The word "Allah" has been part of the Arabic language longer than Islam has been around.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/allah.html

But for more than five hundred years before Muhammad, the vast majority of Jews and Christians in Arabia called God by the name Allah. How, then, can we say that Allah is an invalid name for God? If it is, to whom have these Jews and Christians been praying?

And what about the 10 to 12 million Arab Christians today? They have been calling God ‘Allah’ in their Bibles, hymns, poems, writings, and worship for over nineteen centuries.

However, as you say, Atish Khatami is Persian, not Arabic. The Persian word for "God" is apparently Khoda. So I think if an English-speaking Persian says "Allah be praised" as Khatami did in Summon the Thunder, the fact that she's using the Arabic word implies that she's a Muslim.

 

[xortex]

Khoda as in coda - the end. Allah as in all of us.

 

[Relayer1]

There's so little religion in Trek that you could be forgiven for thinking that humanity has pretty much outgrown it, but looking at some of the posts here, I think it's more like the UK which is a pretty secular society.

Most people here are either non-believers, don't care one way or the other OR don't take their Christianity that seriously (church attendance is pretty low). Followers of minority religions certainly tend to be more devout.

I'd like to point out that I find the heavily armed Christian right in America as scary as the terrorists we all seem to be so paranoid about.

I'm a non-believer - I don't really think religion is a good idea BUT I do believe in tolerance.

As Bill Hicks said when challenged about some comments about Christianity - 'Are you Christians ? Yes ? So forgive me...'

 

[xortex]

Romney looks like a corrupt tele-evangelist.

When Mahler was asked what his religion was he said he was a composer.

 

[Greg Cox]

Just to put this in perspective, let's throw our minds back to 1967:

"What the hell? There's a Russkie on the bridge? Damnit, the Soviets are godless brutes out to destroy America and freedom--and they're probably going to set off World War III one of these days. And yet Roddenberry suger-coats this by giving us a cute, teenybopper ensign who keeps bragging about how great Mother Russia is?

"Damn commie writers!"