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Praetor Pontilus... WTF? TGTMD

Oh, cut that out. :) There are no spoilers there. There would've been if I'd included the sentence before the first one quoted, and/or if I'd finished the final sentence. :D

FYI, if i use leet-speek and loads of !! you can pretty much guess I'm being sarky... mmkay?
 
Spock said the power cost was enormous; that would mean it was impractical for a ship to remain cloaked for any great length of time, or to stay cloaked while in motion.

Nice enough speculation - but we have to remember that Spock was probably dead wrong about it. Certainly later Trek gives scant support to the idea that cloaking would be a power-hungry technique or technology. Still a valid way to play out one pair of moves in the eternal game of cloaks vs. sensors, I guess.

Anyway,

Besides, the bottom line is, this is a work of fiction, and sometimes you just have to accept that something needs to be explained to the characters in order to explain it to the audience. BoT was the first episode to use the concept of a cloaking device, so naturally it needed to be explained there.

I still fault "Balance of Terror" for not going against expectations. Invisibility is a cliched old element of scifi, and it would have been much better had this been old news for our heroes as well. Things like teleportation and rayguns were, after all. The sheer undue explicitness of their confusion over the enemy ship blinking out of sight is problematic from the perfectionist-continuist point of view, but also because it doesn't add all that much to the story.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Nice enough speculation - but we have to remember that Spock was probably dead wrong about it. Certainly later Trek gives scant support to the idea that cloaking would be a power-hungry technique or technology.

But as we've already established in this discussion, cloaking technology is constantly advancing and being reinvented. So the state of cloaking technology in TSFS or TUC or TNG or DS9 isn't necessarily informative about the particular type of cloak being used in "Balance of Terror."


I still fault "Balance of Terror" for not going against expectations. Invisibility is a cliched old element of scifi, and it would have been much better had this been old news for our heroes as well. Things like teleportation and rayguns were, after all. The sheer undue explicitness of their confusion over the enemy ship blinking out of sight is problematic from the perfectionist-continuist point of view, but also because it doesn't add all that much to the story.

Come on, it was 1966. Audiences weren't nearly as genre-savvy or as jaded as they are now. Besides, insofar as invisibility was a familiar genre element, it had primarily been seen on a personal scale (The Invisible Man, The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, Sue Richards in The Fantastic Four) rather than applied to spacecraft. Doing a little web-searching, I find that while there were various prose-SF stories including invisible aircraft or spacecraft going back to the '30s, they were outnumbered by stories about personal invisibility; and I can't find any references to invisible vessels in film or TV prior to "Balance of Terror" (though there were multiple Invisible Man sequels and imitators). So an invisible spacecraft wasn't actually a cliche at the time, not to TV audiences, at any rate. If anything, it was a fairly innovative notion for television.
 
^ Not to mention that the "invisible spaceship" was also a means of tranferring the "hunt the submarine" notion to space battles. "Balance of Terror" is, after all, more than a passing homage to films like The Enemy Below.
 
My quick take: Perhaps the Enterprise had a cloaking countermeasures package installed and our hero's confusion stemmed from the fact they thought they had most forms of cloak licked thanks to these advanced sensors.

Imagine their shock and surprise when they are proved wrong.
 
^ Not to mention that the "invisible spaceship" was also a means of tranferring the "hunt the submarine" notion to space battles. "Balance of Terror" is, after all, more than a passing homage to films like The Enemy Below.

You mean Captain Murrell should have gasped in amazement and muttered "I don't understand..." when the enemy disappeared underwater? :p

Timo Saloniemi
 
Oh, cut that out. :) There are no spoilers there. There would've been if I'd included the sentence before the first one quoted, and/or if I'd finished the final sentence. :D

FYI, if i use leet-speek and loads of !! you can pretty much guess I'm being sarky... mmkay?
Oh, I figured, but I wanted to be clear to anyone who missed the nuances of your posting style... :D
 
My quick take: Perhaps the Enterprise had a cloaking countermeasures package installed and our hero's confusion stemmed from the fact they thought they had most forms of cloak licked thanks to these advanced sensors.

Imagine their shock and surprise when they are proved wrong.


That's the plausibility I'm angling toward. If we assume that previous Romulan cloaking tech was based on holographic camouflage, which had varying degrees of effectiveness, then the surprise of our intrepid heroes when presented with a massively powerful ship which is completely undetectable can certainly be believed.
 
As for why Kirk seemed unfamiliar with it, it could be that the technology fell out of use after "Minefield" because Starfleet figured out how to penetrate it, and the Romulans weren't able to achieve the next theoretical breakthrough until a century later. Their technology could've been set back considerably by the war, just as human technology seems to have been in some ways.

A lot of the explanations for the cloaking device's earlier manifestations seem to suggest that Kirk, Spock, and presumably the rest of the Federation population would have been familiar with the fine details of Earth's first Romulan encounters. Why? It doesn't strike me as likely that two officers of some rank would automatically have access to Command's full database on the Romulans including their prototype cloaking technology--they might just might not have had the clearance.

Besides, it's within the realm of possibility that Command's information on the cloaking device got misplaced. For comparison, look at the Borg. We know that before the gutting of the Federation and Romulan outposts in 2364 that there were at least two encounters, Enterprise's initial encounter with cybernetic organisms assimilating passing ships and transmitting subspace messages back into the Delta Quadrant and the arrival in the 2290s of a shipload of El Aurian refugees fleeing the destruction of their homeworld by cybernetic organisms. The flight of the Hansens into deep space suggests that there were other rumours and other encounters entering the Federation sphere.

Before the first Borg assaults on the Federation, Starfleet Command had a significant amount of information on the Borg, ranging from scans of Borg material to interviews, but it didn't put the information together. Maybe all that information got misplaced, maybe people just couldn't make things click.

Maybe the same was true with the cloaking device. If cloaking technology was expensive and dangerous, the Romulans presumably wouldn't have made much use of it. The various admiralties--or at least the Earth and Vulcan military commands--would have been aware of the cloaking technology but presumably let their guard down when the Romulans turned out to be not using the technology, and quietly, neglectfully, those concerns faded away. After the Romulan attacks a century later, some heads probably rolled as the people in charge demanded of their archivists why they hadn't been made aware of these Romulan projects before.
 
A lot of the explanations for the cloaking device's earlier manifestations seem to suggest that Kirk, Spock, and presumably the rest of the Federation population would have been familiar with the fine details of Earth's first Romulan encounters. Why?

The way ENT portrays it, invisibility is a veritable trademark of the Romulans in the early encounters - perhaps not completely unique to them, but definitely characteristic of them. If it remained so in the war that followed, it would be intolerable that future officers not be aware of this. They might have forgotten that Romulan ships had birds painted on them, so that only Stiles would remember this detail (although it would be a bit like forgetting that the Nazis used the swastika!). But from the point of view of a 23rd century starship commander, the only thing worth knowing about the Romulans would be "the enemies who flew invisible ships". That knowledge should survive a century of silence...

In that sense, it would help matters ginormously if it were plausibly established that Romulans no longer were capable of any sort of invisibility during their big and memorable war. And I don't mean that modern 2160s sensors would have defeated it - I mean that people would no longer have had to reach for their technobabblerizers and gadgetaboobs when the enemy became invisible in that war; that the enemy no longer would become invisible; and that the very concept of invisibility to the Mk I Eyeball would be forgotten because it played no role in the war.

There never was a war with the Borg before "BoBW", so the data on them would only have passed through a small number of specialists and freaks. There was a (supposedly) big and (supposedly) important war with the Romulans, though - and if that war had featured invisible enemies, it would certainly be remembered for its uniqueness. Not just by a few analysts, but by every last civilian who read the headlines about invisible enemies and cowered in fear under his or her bed as the result.

Of course, it's still possible that

a) the Romulan war was neither big nor important, and the public never got excited about it, and/or

b) invisibility in its more primitive forms was commonplace between 2150 and TOS, perhaps being regularly used by Klingons who got possession of the tech in ENT.

In the first case, a lot would be explained about the seeming ignorance of anybody but the personally involved Stiles and the walking computer Spock on matters Romulan - but nothing would explain why Commander Hanson, specifically tasked with monitoring the Romulans for months at an end, would not be intimately familiar with their history of invisibility devices. In the second case, it would become all the more understandable how our heroes see nothing wrong with the fact that a Klingon vessel (originally never seen on screen) can catch them with their pants down in "Errand of Mercy" - but the pronounced amazement of Kirk at simple Mk I Eyeball invisibility, and Spock's denouncing of the possibility as theoretical only, would remain unexplained.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The way ENT portrays it, invisibility is a veritable trademark of the Romulans in the early encounters - perhaps not completely unique to them, but definitely characteristic of them. If it remained so in the war that followed, it would be intolerable that future officers not be aware of this.

Hmm. Maybe only the ships venturing far from Romulan space would be cloaked, all the better to snoop on the Coalition worlds, while it would be economically impractical to equip the much larger fleets of ships devoted to the Romulan War with cloaking devices?

In the second case of "invisibility in its more primitive forms[being] commonplace," it would become all the more understandable how our heroes see nothing wrong with the fact that a Klingon vessel (originally never seen on screen) can catch them with their pants down in "Errand of Mercy" - but the pronounced amazement of Kirk at simple Mk I Eyeball invisibility, and Spock's denouncing of the possibility as theoretical only, would remain unexplained.

Would the possibility I suggested above work?
 
Hmm. Maybe only the ships venturing far from Romulan space would be cloaked, all the better to snoop on the Coalition worlds, while it would be economically impractical to equip the much larger fleets of ships devoted to the Romulan War with cloaking devices?
That'd make sense - perhaps the very few ships equipped with invisibility screens in the war were operated so skilfully that they simply were never seen, and thus the headlines about invisible ships never came to be?

One would still think Spock would be aware that invisibility was practical rather than theoretical, even if this was a side note in Starfleet history and not a major event. Or perhaps Spock was jumping ahead of things and saying "Invisibility is old news, but this... The ability to defeat our modern sensors that should see through cheap parlor tricks... Now this may be an example of the more advanced and so far theoretical invisibility method based on selective bending of light" without using so many words.

It's just too damn inconvenient that the (sometimes nitpickingly) precise Spock clearly calls the witnessed invisibility "theoretical". If it's just the witnessed sort of invisibility that is theoretical, why couldn't he say so? For our sakes? Damnit.

Timo Saloniemi
 
That'd make sense - perhaps the very few ships equipped with invisibility screens in the war were operated so skilfully that they simply were never seen, and thus the headlines about invisible ships never came to be?

Further, perhaps Starfleet was anxious to cover up the news of these cloaked ships so as to avoid panic, and to keep it covered up well past the time of the Romulan War. If the Romulans remained behind the Neutral Zone, presumably subjugating and pacifying the independent civilizations left in their region of space, information about the cloaking devices that had been witnessed in operating only a few times and didn't play a significant war in the Romulan War could have been dongraded in importance but not be declassified. Only with the attacks on Earth's Neutral Zone outposts was the reality of a highly-effected contemporary Romulan cloaking device recognized.

Who knows? Maybe Starfleet had access to cloaks. The Federation only signed the Treaty of Algeron in 2311, and "The Enterprise Incident" might have been as much about getting the sort of bleeding-edge cloak that Starfleet didn't have for its own nefarious purposes.

One would still think Spock would be aware that invisibility was practical rather than theoretical, even if this was a side note in Starfleet history and not a major event. Or perhaps Spock was jumping ahead of things and saying "Invisibility is old news, but this... The ability to defeat our modern sensors that should see through cheap parlor tricks... Now this may be an example of the more advanced and so far theoretical invisibility method based on selective bending of light" without using so many words.

Maybe he was operating from a distinction between the passive stealth technology that reduces emissions (say, using fusion reactors instead of the matter-antimatter reactors that produce tachyonic byproducts) and the active cloaking that actually hides the emissions (cloaking said tachyonic byproducts, somehow)?
 
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Maybe he was operating from a distinction between the passive stealth technology that reduces emissions (say, using fusion reactors instead of the matter-antimatter reactors that produce tachyonic byproducts) and the active cloaking that actually hides the emissions (cloaking said tachyonic byproducts, somehow)?

This is always possible - but one still has to confront the fact that Spock's answer "It's theoretically possible" is in direct response to Kirk's question "How come I can't see the enemy?". Kirk isn't asking "Why is this invisibility better than previous invisibilities?" even though by ENT logic, this is what he should be asking.

So apparently

1) Kirk and Spock are talking past each other and Kirk is criminally clueless, if Spock's answer is about the differences between various types of invisibility and cloaks played a significant role in the Romulan War. Or

2) the heroes could be talking past each other and Kirk is only understandably clueless if cloaks didn't play a significant role. Or

3) Kirk is understandably clueless and the usually knowledgeable Spock is exceptionally clueless if cloaks didn't play a significant role and Spock isn't aware of any sort of invisibility and is answering Kirk's question at face value.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I don't think Spock's "theoretically possible" line says anything about the characters' prior knowledge of the existence of invisibility tech. After all, Spock is prone to be pedantic. It's entirely credible that he'd begin a lecture at first principles before elaborating further, even if there's a good chance his listeners are already aware of those principles.

Anyway, I think it's best not to get too obsessively nitpicky about the literal interpretation of every syllable in a line written 42 years ago when the series and the audience were operating at a more elementary level than we are today. That way lies madness. Sooner or later you have to accept that it's a work of make-believe and sometimes concepts get adjusted or retconned.
 
Lord knows that I am continuity obsessive, but I just rewatched "Balance of Terror" a few weeks ago... and until I read this thread, it did not occur to me that "Minefield" even existed!
 
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