Post TMP 5 Year Mission

[Jsplinis]

Christopher, I can't believe I missed the obvious date for The Better Man. After you commented on it the first time I searched it for mention of the year and I completely forgot about the age reference. Thanks for correcting me.

So for those still interested, The Better Man would be better placed between Ex Machina and The Darkness Drops Again. Christopher was right and I am humbly embarrassed.

Oh and disregard the Note for The Better Man following my timeline.

 

[DarthPipes]

I remember in The Wrath of Khan novelization it being stated that Kirk got kicked back upstairs to Admiral after the V'Ger mission. I've never bought that myself.

 

[TheAlmanac]

G. Christopher prefers The Better Man has an earlier placement but also notes it was intended as 2 years after TMP. The year is not stated in the book so I left it where the Pocket Timeline placed it which is around 2 years after TMP.

Actually the year is established pretty unambiguously in TBM. The story explicitly states that McCoy was on Empyrea in 2254, and he's suspected of being the father of a young woman who's just turned 18. Those dates are mentioned specifically and repeatedly in the text. Allowing for 9 extra months, that pretty much pegs the book as falling in 2273. (There are some references to the visit being 20 years earlier, but those are alongside numerous references to it being 18 years, so I assume there's some rounding going on.)

And the bit about coming 2 years after TMP is really only mentioned in the historian's note; it has no relevance to the text proper. The author's intent is that the book takes place between 18 and 20 years after 2254, i.e. roughly 2273.

Actually, it seems like the author had two intents which are now contradictory, based on what's being described. (I have to go by this, since I haven't read The Better Man.)

On the one hand, the novel is supposed to be two years after TMP. On the other, it's supposed to be 18 years after 2255...which (at the time that book came out) would've been the same thing, based on official sources. The date for TMP has moved forward since then, but I would personally go with Jsplinis's instinct to maintain the novel's placement relative to TMP.

It's not as if many of those other novels don't also have calendar dates (stated or implied) that are now problematic, and I imagine that if TMP had already been thought of as taking place in 2273 at the time, McCoy's visit could've/would've been described as occurring two years later.

 

[ryan123450]

That was my thinking as well. The book was based on a chronology that is no longer correct. A choice would have to be made as to which of the contradictory dates should take priority.

 

[Christopher]

Actually, it seems like the author had two intents which are now contradictory, based on what's being described. (I have to go by this, since I haven't read The Better Man.)

On the one hand, the novel is supposed to be two years after TMP. On the other, it's supposed to be 18 years after 2255...which (at the time that book came out) would've been the same thing, based on official sources. The date for TMP has moved forward since then, but I would personally go with Jsplinis's instinct to maintain the novel's placement relative to TMP.

Yes, technically the book is positioned both 18 years after the flashbacks and 2 years after TMP, but the latter is far, far less important to the story and gets far fewer mentions in the text. It is not essential to the story that 24 months have elapsed since V'Ger or that they're wearing the TWOK uniforms. Those are both alluded to in passing, but they're incidental. But it is extremely important to the story, and mentioned quite a few times, that the central character who's suspected of being McCoy's daughter has just turned 18 years old, and it's made quite clear that he was on her mother's planet in 2254. (And McCoy's age in 2254 is given based on his birthdate as calculated from his canonical age stated in "Encounter at Farpoint.")

So it's a matter of priorities. The interval since the flashbacks is immensely more important to the story than the interval since TMP. The former is a critical plot point that comes up repeatedly, while the latter is an incidental bit of detail that gets a handful of passing allusions.

 

[Leto_II]

I haven't read it yet, but doesn't the Marvel comic Star Trek: Untold Voyages make the case that the original Marvel run was part of a "new ongoing mission" between TMP and TWOK? I was told that aside from some wonkiness about setting up TWOK elements a few years earlier than it should, it seems to work fairly well as "bridging" the Second Five-Year Mission concept.

^Uhh, the original 1980 Marvel run was explicitly presented as a new ongoing mission after TMP. There was no need to retcon that later; it was overtly the case from the beginning. Just about every post-TMP novel or comic since then has been, has had to be, in a post-TMP ongoing mission, so it was hardly an innovation for Untold Voyages to follow that established precedent. And UV didn't reference the 1980 run in any way, as far as I recall. The '80 run wasn't that well-regarded, and I doubt Marvel was eager to remind people of it.

Actually, the first issue of Untold Voyages does feature some subtle references the early '80s Marvel run with the character-design of the Klingons aboard the K't'inga-class battlecruisers -- they're pretty much a spot-on recreation of their TMP "lobster" appearances (in the sense of looking very much like Cockrum's interpretation), as well as in smaller details like how the Klingon captain fires his disruptor, the disruptor's appearance, etc.

Not HUGE, obvious references, of course, but I remember being pretty thrilled to see all the love given to those Marvel-motifs in the '90s when Untold Voyages first came out.

 

[Christopher]

Actually, the first issue of Untold Voyages does feature some subtle references the early '80s Marvel run with the character-design of the Klingons aboard the K't'inga-class battlecruisers -- they're pretty much a spot-on recreation of their TMP "lobster" appearances (in the sense of looking very much like Cockrum's interpretation), as well as in smaller details like how the Klingon captain fires his disruptor, the disruptor's appearance, etc.

I'm sorry, I don't see that at all. Michael Collins and Keith Williams's Klingons don't look any more like Cockrum and Janson's than one would expect from two different art teams interpreting the same makeup design from the movie. The UV version is far more detailed and has elements from later Klingon designs influencing it (like longer hair on several of the Klingons, and more pronounced supraorbital ridges).

And I don't know what you mean about the disruptor's appearance. The disruptors in the 1980 issue are based on the Klingon disruptors seen in TOS (seen most clearly on #5, p. 26, panel 2, when Spock nerve-pinches a Klingon and takes the weapon), while the ones in UV #1 are different in shape and color (the only good look we get is on panel 3 of the third-to-last page -- the weapon has a thicker, more complex barrel and is purple instead of pinkish-gray).

 

[jpv2000]

A very nice thread. I'm going to dive into this era shortly and it's good to know where the various novels fit in. I already have a few of them now.

I'm going to get The Lost Years series leading into TMP and go from there.

 

[Christopher]

^Well, keep in mind that the books don't represent a single continuity. Things like The Lost Years and the Duane novels are part of the '80s novel continuity, and aren't consistent with the modern shows or post-2000 books like Ex Machina.

 

[jpv2000]

^Well, keep in mind that the books don't represent a single continuity. Things like The Lost Years and the Duane novels are part of the '80s novel continuity, and aren't consistent with the modern shows or post-2000 books like Ex Machina.

Thanks, for that info. I will probably skip them then. I read them all years ago but no longer had the books. Your "Ex Machina" is already on my to buy list.

Off Topic, but I just finished "Over a Torrent Sea" the other day and absolutely loved it. Kudos. Do you plan any future Titan novels? I sincerely hope so.

 

[Christopher]

^Oh, I didn't mean to say you should skip them. They're still worth reading, especially the Duane books. Just don't expect all the books to fit together, is all. If you want to read in sequence, maybe do one read-through of the '80s-continuity books in the period followed by a read-through of the modern-continuity books. Although there are some books that could go either way.

Titan and I seem to have gone in divergent directions over the past few years.

 

[jpv2000]

^Oh, I didn't mean to say you should skip them. They're still worth reading, especially the Duane books. Just don't expect all the books to fit together, is all. If you want to read in sequence, maybe do one read-through of the '80s-continuity books in the period followed by a read-through of the modern-continuity books. Although there are some books that could go either way.

I may get them later, but I still remember them fairly well from when I first read them. I was reading some of the reviews and the little excerpt on Amazon for your Ex Machina and it looks fantastic so I believe I will start with that.

Titan and I seem to have gone in divergent directions over the past few years.

Really sad to hear that.

Your two Titan books are my favorites of the entire series.

 

[Jsplinis]

^Oh, I didn't mean to say you should skip them. They're still worth reading, especially the Duane books. Just don't expect all the books to fit together, is all. If you want to read in sequence, maybe do one read-through of the '80s-continuity books in the period followed by a read-through of the modern-continuity books. Although there are some books that could go either way.

I am preparing for my read through and was already thinking along the lines of splitting it into two read throughs if they would be individually more consistent in style etc.

If one were to do an 80's read through and another for the modern style, which books would you say are better suited for which category. (And which could be both for that matter?)

Thank and have fun,
jsplinis

 

[Christopher]

Well, my list of the books that fit in the '80s continuity is here:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=7910899&postcount=74

The modern continuity is basically anything after 2000, not counting the new Rihannsu books. As for books from the '90s, that's more of a judgment call, although I do count The Covenant of the Crown, The Better Man, and The Kobayashi Maru in the modern continuity (and reference TKM in Ex Machina).

 

[ryan123450]

^Oh, I didn't mean to say you should skip them. They're still worth reading, especially the Duane books. Just don't expect all the books to fit together, is all. If you want to read in sequence, maybe do one read-through of the '80s-continuity books in the period followed by a read-through of the modern-continuity books. Although there are some books that could go either way.

I am preparing for my read through and was already thinking along the lines of splitting it into two read throughs if they would be individually more consistent in style etc.

If one were to do an 80's read through and another for the modern style, which books would you say are better suited for which category. (And which could be both for that matter?)

Thank and have fun,
jsplinis

Here's my take on the two different eras of continuity:

http://startreklitverse.yolasite.com/the-original-series.php

 

[Jsplinis]

Here's my take on the two different eras of continuity:

http://startreklitverse.yolasite.com/the-original-series.php

I love your website but I'm not sure that I totally understand the color codes of the TOS section. Mainly the white color. What does this stand for? Does it denote a crossover between the 2 trek-lit universes: original and modern?

Also, the list might be a little easier to understand for TOS if the Original trek-lit stories had their own page, so you wouldn't have two overlapping "continuities" in the same "chronology" Just a suggestion.

One more question, why would Rihannsu be "light blue"? Aren't they effectively replaced and slightly contradicted by the Vulcan's Noun series? Otherwise shouldn't Pandora's Principle be "light blue" as well?

 

[ryan123450]

Here's my take on the two different eras of continuity:

http://startreklitverse.yolasite.com/the-original-series.php

I love your website but I'm not sure that I totally understand the color codes of the TOS section. Mainly the white color. What does this stand for? Does it denote a crossover between the 2 trek-lit universes: original and modern?

On all my lists the white denotes nothing. It's for the entries that are referenced in one way or another by other stories, but aren't very important or very well tied to the Lit-verse continuity. The entries that apply to both the old and new Lit-verses have both blue and green colors.

Also, the list might be a little easier to understand for TOS if the Original trek-lit stories had their own page, so you wouldn't have two overlapping "continuities" in the same "chronology" Just a suggestion.

I've thought of doing that as well. I may do it eventually, but there are some other things I want to get done first, and I have such limited time to work on it. Plus keep in mind that the two continuities aren't totally separate. There is some overlap of stories and references between the two.

One more question, why would Rihannsu be "light blue"? Aren't they effectively replaced and slightly contradicted by the Vulcan's Noun series? Otherwise shouldn't Pandora's Principle be "light blue" as well?

I do need to add "light blue" on The Pandora's Principle. Thanks for pointing that out. As far as I feel, the events of the Rihannsu books and The Pandora Principle did take place in the Lit-verse in some basic form, though you have to gloss over the "continuity errors."

 

[Jsplinis]

Well, I've started the post-TMP marathon that I talked about earlier in this thread and it's been a lot of fun.

So far I've read:

Shadow of the Machine
Ex Machina
The Better Man
The Darkness Drips Again
Kobayashi Maru, and
The More Things Change

It's been great seeing the crew adjust to new jobs and new dynamics between each other. For example, Chekov starting out as Chief of Security, Sulu being Second Officer and Chapel being a doctor but bumped from her CMO position by McCoy.

But the one thing I've enjoyed the most is the exploration of Spock coming to terms with his emotional epiphany in TMP. I always liked how the later movies showed Spock as coming to terms with his emotions and being able to use logic with emotion and it's great that these novels show his personal journey and struggles to get to that point.

For the rest of my marathon I would like to read novels that further explore Spock in this way. My next book will be Forgotten History, but after that I'm not sure what to read.

I've skimmed the following and found that they stay consistent about Chekov as Security Chief and other crew changes, but I couldn't tell if they portray Spock as totally logical or on his emotional journey? Also, do the crew show awareness of Spock's change or do they act as if nothing happened? The books in question are:

Home is the Hunter
Enemy Unseen
Firestorm
Ice Trap
Shell Game
Death Count

Thanks for any input. I've already bought these books and will eventually read them, but for now I would like to continue reading about Spock coming to terms with emotions.

Thanks and have fun,
jsplinis

 

[Christopher]

None of the earlier post-TMP novels really addressed Spock's changing attitude; they generally just wrote him the same as he'd been in TOS. (The only one that even mentioned his emotional epiphany in TMP was the very early The Prometheus Design, which inexplicably reversed it and had him embrace an extra-cold "ultra-Vulcan" mode.) That's why it was so important to me to address it in Ex Machina -- because I felt it was long overdue for exploration.

 

[Jsplinis]

Thanks for the help.

Like I said earlier, it makes much more sense for Spock to have to face and integrate emotions into his life after the major event of melding with V'Ger. Especially if he is to grow into the Spock we see in later films who is more at peace with his emotional human half.

And I do have one correction for you. Of the books I've read so far there is one that acknowledges Spock's change and was released before Ex Machina. In The Better Man, there is a passage in Chapter 8 in which Scotty is considering how Spock was changed by his encounter with V'Ger two years earlier. I'm not sure what page its on because I have the ebook, but I know that you like the book and thought you might enjoy the passage.

Thanks again for the help,
Jsplinis