Post "First Contact" Starfleet more "military"?

[Gotham Central]

Is it me or does the post "First Contact" starfleet seem more militaristic? The starships seem far more like warships with less emphasis on exploration. The Sovreign Class startship has the most militaristic feel of any ship we've ever seen in trek. The ship is armed to the teeth, and the interiors are far less "comfortable" or welcoming than any previous class of ship. Even the refitted Enterprise A from ST:VI seems brighter and more suited to diplomatic functions. This is in stark contrast to either the Enterprise D or Voyager. The ship comes across as more of a warship than previous classes. The ship just looks menacing. Even the Defiant, while being more spartan, was filmed in such a way that it did not always feel like a warship. This seems to be directly related to the design asthetic that the producers used for starships post First Contact. Voyager seems to be the last ship with any semblance of the "Next Generation" asthetic. Though it featured a cooler color pallet, the she ship was still streamlined, and the interiors did not come across as militaristic.

From First Contact onward, starfleet ships had less organic curves/shapes, had darker colors, more metal and darker interiors, and the hulls were increasingly cluttered and over designed. Engines/nacells, which had steadily gotten smaller inorder to emphasize more efficient technology (and the miniturization that usually comes with said efficiency) balooned in size.

 

[arch101]

I firmly believe that, unlike the Galaxy class, which was a long-range explorer, the Sovereign class is a support/capital ship for defense and inter-Federation assignments. I also think that, with the outbreak of the war, the "grand age of exploration" that seemed to open at the beginning of TNG, was brought to a close. It could logically be a generation before the Federation again commits to a large-scale exploration program. New ship designs from INS, Nem and later Voy would reflect that change in mission for the Starfleet.

 

[TheRealNaveed]

I think the reason behind the sharper designs was as one of the producers, I forget who, said: The Enterprise-D, Voyager and Defiant were all smooth looking because they were meant for television sets. The Ent-E was designed to be much, much sharper and more highly defined to make use of the movie screen. I think Enterprise kept this in mind, because the average television in this decade are crisper than the average one of the mid-nineties. With the upcoming movie, I also think we'll see that the interiors, at least, are going to be a lot more complex than TOS, or even TNG/VOY, simply because it's more visually interesting, and fits with a movie screen better.

 

[msbae]

Well, after several Borg invasions and a Galactic War against the Dominion, I understand Starfleet's more militaristic direction.

Also, I think they should have had a military wing since the birth of the Federation. Thanks to the...

1.) NX-01's misadventures (especially the Xindi attack)...
2.) The Vulcans' years of experience...
3.) the Earth-Romulan War...

...they knew that Space was dangerous. There's nothing wrong with having a sizable fleet whose sole purpose is to protect the homestead.

Maybe they took a page out of American history and simply disbanded their military after each war until a really big one happened. Like WW2 did for the USA, the Dominion War just had to change the UFP's perspective on things.

 

[Deks]

Just because SF finally took a hint and decided to arm their ships properly doesn't diminish their ability in the department of exploration.

The Enterprise-D wasn't an overly special design in it's own.
True, it's larger interior would enable it to carry large amounts of stocks for example on long voyages, but that doesn't mean the Enterprise - E cannot do the same.
The E on the other hand would have to restock a bit sooner perhaps (and even that is questionable when you take into consideration the galaxy houses plenty of planets or areas rich in resources ... and besides, you also have to take into consideration crew sizes), but it would probably be able to withstand long term exploratory assignments just like a Galaxy class, while at the same time being better equipped to defend itself should the need arise.

Voyager was a downsized Galaxy class version and while it did have problems initially mostly because of their rough entrance into the DQ, the crew did well in repairing the ship and even making their own modifications to it.
They also didn't have to restock too often.
And even a Galaxy class under those circumstances would have been in trouble.

 

[C.E. Evans]

IMO, the Federation had enjoyed a long period of relative peace between TOS and TNG. An alliance was being established with the Klingons, the Romulans had adopted a policy of isolationism, and aside from a few minor border skirmishes with the Cardassians and the Tzenkathi, life was pretty good.

Then the Romulans came back. Then there was the Borg. Then there was the Dominion who not only went to war with the Federation, but also briefly turned the Klingons and the Cardassians against the Federation again. Things have been kind of rough for the Federation in the last 20 years or so...

Starfleet seems to have the ability to adapt with the times. I think the Enterprise-D and the Enterprise-E are products of their respective times in Federation history. But with the end of the Dominion War, we may see Starfleet going back to more peaceful pursuits. I'm sure lessons learned during the Dominion War will be incorporated into future Starfleet missions, but we may see some of the more combat-oriented starship designs either mothballed or redeployed in other peacetime endeavors.

 

[JNG]

I think fans who take some dark blue and sharp edges on chairs and consoles to mean all of Starfleet has become more militaristic are really reaching.

I didn't gather from Enterprise-E's appearances that it was noticeably outperforming the other ships, especially not when it was shown assigned to a comparatively insignificant diplomatic mission during the Dominion War while Galaxy-class starships were shown as fleet leaders in that conflict.

Enterprise-E ran out of torpedoes against the Reman warship in Nemesis, and even with the questions created by editing I highly doubt they fired more than 275 or 300 torpedoes in that single battle, so it appears Enterprise-E carried less armament in that respect than its predecessor. I don't know if the phasers have any significant technological differences from those on Enterprise-D because this was never addressed in the moviesand we sadly never got anything like a movie technical manual for the Nextgen era, but I do know the arrays don't have as many emitter segments. It does appear that their coverage is slightly better and comparable to that of Voyager.

There's little evidence to suggest any particular design is more or less combat-oriented than any other, as defense of the Federation is one of the missions of Starfleet and frontline starships are expected to be able to carry out this role. One exception is the Defiant from DS9, which was described as such an exception and which, unfortunately for it, seems to have been riddled with technical problems. However, I like that it was not made a fanboy supership but rather had clearly suffered performance penalties in other areas in exchange for certain aspects of its combat performance being beefed up.

Another possible exception is the Prometheus. The multi-vector attack mode may be a bit silly, but its being described as such is a strong suggestion that the separation capability is primarily for combat and not to serve other purposes, as with the Galaxy-class separated flight modes.

There are many continuing threats to the Federation across the different time periods we have been shown, so I would never expect Starfleet to ever draw down or intentionally reduce the ability of frontline starships to perform missions that are part of the charter while it faces such continuing threats (fragile peace with Cardassians after long period of hot war, border with proven hostile power in Romulan Star Empire, unrest in Klingon Empire, Tzenkethi, and of course the unknown--or the suddenly surprising known, as with the Breen).

I think a certain type of fan just does not like the suggestion that ships like Enterprise-D are capable in this regard because it does not suit their sensibilities that the ship would be capable in combat but normally pursue peaceful missions. However, this is a philosophical cornerstone of Star Trek. Differences in the amount of "action" that appear in the different parts of the franchise have their own explanations and I don't think they are a useful basis for assuming differences in hardware.

 

[JM1776]

The multi-vector attack mode may be a bit silly...

And the nominees for "Understatement of the Year" are ...

Your reputation for restraint is intact, JNG.

 

[nx1701g]

I didn't gather from Enterprise-E's appearances that it was noticeably outperforming the other ships, especially not when it was shown assigned to a comparatively insignificant diplomatic mission during the Dominion War while Galaxy-class starships were shown as fleet leaders in that conflict.

Enterprise-E ran out of torpedoes against the Reman warship in Nemesis, and even with the questions created by editing I highly doubt they fired more than 275 or 300 torpedoes in that single battle, so it appears Enterprise-E carried less armament in that respect than its predecessor. I don't know if the phasers have any significant technological differences from those on Enterprise-D because this was never addressed in the moviesand we sadly never got anything like a movie technical manual for the Nextgen era, but I do know the arrays don't have as many emitter segments. It does appear that their coverage is slightly better and comparable to that of Voyager.

The behind the scenes books that interview the producers and production designers do seem to suggest though that the Enterprise-E was more capable than the other ships the Federation had. LaForge confirms this in First Contact when he says that she's the most advanced ship in the fleet. Also, the movie sketchbook claims that the Enterprise-E's phasers are more advanced than the Enterprise-Ds. She also is supposed to have ablative armor like the Defiant. As for running out of torpedoes - speed of the plot? We don't know exactly how long the battle between the Scimitar and the Enterprise was and we don't know what happened prior to the start of the film (maybe they were on their way to rearm since they were doing little more than playing limo for the Rikers?) The novelization suggested that the battle took longer than was shown on screen.

As for the original question I'd have to say yes. In the time frame of TNG from it's start we've seen the Borg come into play. The Husnock were briefly seen and the Enterprise-D had little chance against one of their ships - even automated in Season 3. The Federation saw a brief war with the Klingon Empire during DS9 as well as was just coming out of a long drawn out conflict with the Cardassians that was supposedly longer than 20 years. Then you have the introduction of the Dominion, the Son'a, and then the Breen who have a weapon that disables ships with the flip of a switch. I can see where the Federation became more militaristic.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I didn't gather from Enterprise-E's appearances that it was noticeably outperforming the other ships, especially not when it was shown assigned to a comparatively insignificant diplomatic mission during the Dominion War while Galaxy-class starships were shown as fleet leaders in that conflict.

It can always be argued that the Enterprise was the Federation's flagship and did participate in other battles during the Dominion War. When not in battle, it likely was going around securing as many allies for the Federation as possible. Hardly insignificant during war time.

And technically, if there really was a fleet leader in the Dominion War, then it probably would have to be the Defiant, but there all sorts of starships in the mix.

There's little evidence to suggest any particular design is more or less combat-oriented than any other, as defense of the Federation is one of the missions of Starfleet and frontline starships are expected to be able to carry out this role.

I don't think anyone said that Federation defense wasn't part of a Starfleet vessel's overall mission, but I do think there is enough evidence to suggest that Starfleet did start building ships with increased tactical capabilities in mind, particularly post-Wolf 359. Quite a few new starship designs were introduced during this period and Starfleet seemed to move towards smaller and more sturdy designs. If nothing else, Wolf 359 alone should have been enough to motive Starfleet to build tougher ships.

 

[nx1701g]

^ I remember in an episode that they refer to the Defiant as a Command Ship of the ninth fleet at one point. I think it was in Tears of the Prophets but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[LeadHead]

I can understand Starfleet taking a more militaristic aproach by that point. In the preceding years, There was a severe scare of war with the Romulans, (TNG's "Defector") The Borg invasion that made it all the way to earth past an entire defense fleet (TNG's "Best of Both Worlds") Sentient Borg attacked outlying colonies (TNG's "Descent") Several starships were destroyed by the Dominion before they had even introduced themselves (DS9's "The Jem'Hadar") The Dominion had proven its subversive methods by outflanking the Obsidian Order-Tal Shiar allaince (DS9's "The Die is Cast") The Klingons broke the Peace Treaty and enaged in Battle with a Federation Starbase (DS9's "The Way of the Warrior") The Klingons and Federation were at war for a brief time (DS9's "Apocalypse Rising") So it seems to be understandable that a more militaristic posture would be taken by that point. That ships designs would be done to create stronger combat abilities.

 

[Arpy]

It's because warships are KEWL!!!1!!1!!!11

No, seriously. I think this was another aspect of the dumbing down of the franchise that lead to some pretty bad movies and TV.

I'm hopeful about ST:XI though. Don't like the idea of a partial/whatever reboot, but it looks like it's being done well and smartly.

 

[JM1776]

The Husnock were briefly seen and the Enterprise-D had little chance against one of their ships.

That's assuming facts not in evidence.

We know only that the Enterprise-D "had little chance against" a Douwd-created Husnock ship. It's possible, even likely, he beefed it up simply to chase the E-D away. After all, its first incarnation ran like a girl, before the Douwd was aware of Picard's resolve.

 

[BenRoethig]

I firmly believe that, unlike the Galaxy class, which was a long-range explorer, the Sovereign class is a support/capital ship for defense and inter-Federation assignments. I also think that, with the outbreak of the war, the "grand age of exploration" that seemed to open at the beginning of TNG, was brought to a close. It could logically be a generation before the Federation again commits to a large-scale exploration program. New ship designs from INS, Nem and later Voy would reflect that change in mission for the Starfleet.

One other note, the Enterprise-D had to have space dedicated to the civilians. With an entirely starfleet crew, you can cut down on a lot of space. Add to that newer and more efficient systems and you're going to be able to do the same missions with a smaller hull. The Sovereign isn't some kind of paradigm ship design, the Galaxy and Nebula classes were they didn't work out as planned. As a result, they went back to more traditional hull designs with the Intrepid and Sovereign class.

 

[grabmygoblin]

considering that most of Post "First Contact" Trek set in the Alpha Quadrant involved the Dominion War, I think that it makes perfect sense that the ship would be more "military".

 

[Frodo Lives]

I've never understood way some people find the Enterprise-E to be mean and frightening. Personally, I dig the added contours in the interior, as well as the change in the colour palette from the Ent-D's pastels to the E's burgundy and dark browns - it looked like a much nicer place to live and work. Sure, the ceilings were a little lower, but I could live with that, whereas the D just made me think of some horrible hotel that hadn't painted the walls since 1979.

And as to the exterior, I can see way some people prefer the D - it's got a very sculpted look to it and I like it too - but in the end, there's just something about the E that makes it look, very regal and elegant (oversized impulse engines notwithstanding).

 

[nx1701g]

The Husnock were briefly seen and the Enterprise-D had little chance against one of their ships.

That's assuming facts not in evidence.

We know only that the Enterprise-D "had little chance against" a Douwd-created Husnock ship. It's possible, even likely, he beefed it up simply to chase the E-D away. After all, its first incarnation ran like a girl, before the Douwd was aware of Picard's resolve.

Ok then I'll replace the Husnock with the Children of Tama in Season five of TNG. While they did somewhat become allies (at least you could assume that was going to happen but it wasn't a guarantee) their ships were capable of causing severe damage to the Enterprise-D - the Federation Flagship.

 

[JM1776]

OK, then I'll replace the Husnock with the Children of Tama in season five of TNG. While they did somewhat become allies (at least you could assume that was going to happen but it wasn't a guarantee) their ships were capable of causing severe damage to the Enterprise-D - the Federation Flagship.

Well ... that may have had quite a bit to do with the fact their deflector screens weren't fully energized when the Tamarians attacked [Riker orders maximum shields; we then cut to the other ship firing, which could be interpreted as happening simultaneously or nearly so], and that E-D's response was rather perfunctory. In addition, the Tamarians unleashed three barrages, Enterprise only one (not counting the surgical strike intended only to take out the scattering field and do no other damage, of course). Our heroes weren't looking for a fight, but to free Picard.

I get your point, though, and in large measure I agree with it. Little doubt the Galaxy-class starships seen during the Dominion War had been given significant tactical upgrades.

In support of what you're saying ... a Romulan warbird nearly overwhelmed the E-D's defenses en passant in "Tin Man." While I enjoyed that ep immensely, I found the idea that even another capital starship could so reduce the Federation flagship's shields in a single salvo beyond preposterous. I interpreted it as dramatic license; nothing more.

 

[Timo]

...especially not when it was shown assigned to a comparatively insignificant diplomatic mission during the Dominion War while Galaxy-class starships were shown as fleet leaders in that conflict.

Whether ST:INS took place during the Dominion War, or after it, can be debated. IMHO, everything points to the latter being the case.

Enterprise-E ran out of torpedoes against the Reman warship in Nemesis, and even with the questions created by editing I highly doubt they fired more than 275 or 300 torpedoes in that single battle, so it appears Enterprise-E carried less armament in that respect than its predecessor.

Quite possible (even though this need not reflect the full warload, as the E-E could have been less than half loaded on that particular mission). Then again, the battle we saw would be the most perfect scenario possible in Star Trek for running out of torpedoes - firing blindly at an invisible enemy, with the full knowledge that even if a volley does make contact, it needs to consist of half a dozen torps to make any sort of damage to the monster of a target. The E-E could easily have fired hundreds of torpedoes in the engagement.

Another possible exception is the Prometheus. The multi-vector attack mode may be a bit silly, but its being described as such is a strong suggestion that the separation capability is primarily for combat and not to serve other purposes, as with the Galaxy-class separated flight modes.

One might consider that when a military organization has the time and resources to try out radically new concepts, it's typically a sign of deep and prosperous peace... In times of conflict, effort should be directed at that which is known to work.

LaForge confirms this in First Contact when he says that she's the most advanced ship in the fleet.

Again, this sounds like peacetime fiddling, thus rather unlikely to result in a superior combatant.

Also, the movie sketchbook claims that the Enterprise-E's phasers are more advanced than the Enterprise-Ds. She also is supposed to have ablative armor like the Defiant.

Neither of these claims seems to be supported by onscreen visuals or dialogue...

considering that most of Post "First Contact" Trek set in the Alpha Quadrant involved the Dominion War, I think that it makes perfect sense that the ship would be more "military".

...But she would have been designed and built long before there was war.

While I enjoyed that ep immensely, I found the idea that even another capital starship could so reduce the Federation flagship's shields in a single salvo beyond preposterous.

One would think this a standard occurrence in space warfare: adversaries would seldom be technologically matched, as they wouldn't even know about each other, let alone the military capabilities of each other.

Of course, Romulans would be more of a known quantity than, say, Tamarians. But they had spent a long time incommunicado, and probably milked that time for every possible drop of advantage. "Tin Man" is actually the first known time a real and operational (as opposed to illusory or badly damaged) modern Romulan warbird takes shots at a Federation vessel - so the Feds could very well be in for a nasty surprise.

And one must say the historical precedent is apt. Save for the age of sail, it has been more or less true that if a capital ship gets off the first volley from an advantageous position, the opposition is immediate fish food. Too bad for continuity that most other Trek combat follows the age-of-sail model where inflicting of any real damage is hellishly difficult.

Timo Saloniemi