Post 2378: Warp 10, the Delta Flyer, & A New Technology Boom?

[Thomas_Sullivan]

I just finished re-watching the entire run of "Voyager" for the second time in about a year (please, don't light your torches and gather your pitchforks just yet) and I was thinking about the sort of things that the Voyager and her crew brought along with them when they returned to the Alpha Quadrant.

They have untold amounts of information in their database on previously unknown species and spatial phenomenon (such as the silver bloods from the demon class planet, the telepathic pitcher plant, and the ellipses), advanced means of space travel (warp ten, quantum slipstream, underspace, transwarp, the tetryon reactor powered displacement wave "catapult" and more), star maps of the Delta Quadrant, an advanced stellar cartography sensor suite and mapping technology, Borg nanoprobes, enhanced shielding, stealth and ablative armor generation technology from thirty years in the future, the 24th Century "hotrod" known as the Delta Flyer, and much, much more.

Ignoring "Picard" and assuming instead that Star Trek had continued in the vein of the 90's franchise entries with a new series set after "Voyager," and a Starfleet that had not become so corrupt as what we see in the new Trek series, what are some of your theories on how these new technologies might have been applied by Starfleet (by capability or inclination), what sort of breakthroughs might they likely have made with the data from Voyager, and what sort of impacts might this have had on Starfleet, the Federation, and the future of space travel?

I suspect that certain things (such as the nanoprobes, ablative armor and stealth technology) might be classified and tightly controlled, but I'm open to any thoughts, even if they disagree. I'm just curious what sort of future other fans might project from the conclusion of "Endgame" forward.

-- Tom

P.S. If this is more appropriate for the Voyager forum, please do move it. I just felt this was more of a general Star Trek universe conversation, even if it addresses technology from "Voyager."

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

such as the silver bloods from the demon class planet, the telepathic pitcher plant, and the ellipses)

Silver Bloods = new species for StarFleet / UFP to meet and interact with

Telepathic Pitcher Plant = new dangerous space creature to avoid

Graviton Ellipse = new crazy Spatial Anomaly to research / avoid / use to cross dimensional boundaries. Incredibly exciting from a scientific research stand point.

advanced means of space travel (warp ten, quantum slipstream, underspace, transwarp, the tetryon reactor powered displacement wave "catapult" and more), star maps of the Delta Quadrant, an advanced stellar cartography sensor suite and mapping technology, Borg nanoprobes, enhanced shielding, stealth and ablative armor generation technology from thirty years in the future, the 24th Century "hotrod" known as the Delta Flyer, and much, much more.

The new Dilithium - should allow for higher Warp Speeds / Faster Power Generation to keep up with Faster Warp Speeds.
I'm sure somebody within StarFleet will research how to artificially make this new form of Dilithium and implement safe guards to prevent Warp Infinity.

Quantum Slipstream - will enable new exploration capabilities for StarFleet + Tactical opportunities.

UnderSpace - A new shortcut within the MilkyWay Galaxy like the Bajoran Worm Hole to the Gamma Quadrant. A new shortcut to map out and let everybody know about since it's a "Cheap/Free & non FTL drive usage" that anybody can use to cross vast distances. This would save ALOT of energy consumption & Time.

Tetryon reactor - A new form of power generation that is capable of powering FTL systems when scaled to the appropriate size. Comparable to Matter/Anti-Matter reactors or Artificial Quantum Singularity reactors or massive Fusion Drives.

Tash's Catapult - The design specs for this has HUGE implications for civilian space travel within the UFP. This along with Borg TransWarp corridors would allow civilians to cross vast regions without having to own a vessel with advanced reactors or FTL drives.

The main issue with civilian travel in space is that FTL drives require a crew to maintain and run all the advanced systems.

There's a reason why Air Travel is far more limited in terms of who qualifies for a pilot's license and vs who can operate a automobile.

Tash's Catapult + Borg Style TransWarp Corridors + Warp Sleds can enable a new generation of "Space Cars" AKA "Astro-Mobiles" with civilians operating on large ultra dense batteries like the "Condensed Energy Matrix" that powered the Series 5 long-range tactical armor unit. The damn tiny AI run Long Range Torpedo/Missile/Projectile can cross 80 ly's, have shields, and advanced sensors along with who knows what else.

Imagine a Battery the size of the Tesseract from the MCU, but instead of "Unlimited Energy", it would just have ALOT of energy, enough for 80 ly's of Warp Travel + Shields + extra systems.

That's one of the largest game changers IMO since you can enable civilians to easily have STL Impulse or Hyper-Impulse based simple "Space Cars" AKA "Astro-Mobiles" and use established FTL transit points like:
Borg-Style TransWarp Corridors = Inter-Stellar FTL Highway.
Tash's Graviton based Catapult = Long Range direct point to point travel at high speeds.
Warp Sleds + Condensed Energy Matrix style batteries allows anybody to go FTL within nearby StarSystems like modern day personal ferries.

InterMix reactor - ST:PIC gave Rios a new type of Reactor to power his "Speed Freightor" that we don't know much about.

Star maps of the Delta Quadrant - Invaluable to the UFP & StarFleet

An advanced stellar cartography sensor suite and mapping technology - Invaluable to StarFleet for exploration.

Borg nanoprobes - It'll definitely advanced the Nano Robotic field.

Enhanced Shielding - Always good to have, especially the configuration that the Female Q gave Bellana.

Stealth and ablative armor generation technology from thirty years in the future - I know I use it for future StarFleet vessels in my head cannon on top of regular Shields for extra tough StarShips.

the 24th Century "hotrod" known as the Delta Flyer - A new line of Shuttlecraft will be mass produced from the DeltaFlyer baseline IMO where we will see the lineage of in the future.

 

[NCC-73515]

I guess most of the advanced tech was taken by 31 or otherwise classified by SI

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I guess most of the advanced tech was taken by 31 or otherwise classified by SI

They already classified the Spore Drive which would be a "Game Changer" in combat.

Even without a Biological Navigator, if you can just 'Spore Jump' a few Light Seconds via Computer Controlled Accurate Navigation, that can change the face of a battle by repositioning you where-ever you want.

Even with a limited stock of Spore Cannisters for a limited stock of Jumps.

That alone with give ships a HUGE tactical advantage.

 

[Thomas_Sullivan]

They already classified the Spore Drive which would be a "Game Changer" in combat.

Even without a Biological Navigator, if you can just 'Spore Jump' a few Light Seconds via Computer Controlled Accurate Navigation, that can change the face of a battle by repositioning you where-ever you want.

Even with a limited stock of Spore Cannisters for a limited stock of Jumps.

That alone with give ships a HUGE tactical advantage.

True. I've wondered about the possibility of using Voyager's warp ten or quantum slipstream data to create a drive with the ability to do just that -- jump a starship over a distance by engaging the drive for the briefest of moments and then disengaging it again, making them feasible for use where they weren't for actual continuous travel.

 

[Deks]

They already classified the Spore Drive which would be a "Game Changer" in combat.

Even without a Biological Navigator, if you can just 'Spore Jump' a few Light Seconds via Computer Controlled Accurate Navigation, that can change the face of a battle by repositioning you where-ever you want.

Even with a limited stock of Spore Cannisters for a limited stock of Jumps.

That alone with give ships a HUGE tactical advantage.

To be fair, the issue of finding a biological navigator shouldn't have been an issue.
The premise you need an 'organic' entity is also flawed.
Apparently, the writers fail to understand that computers are already able to do things at least 1000 times faster than a group of humans can (this is with today's technology).
With technology Starfleet had in mid 23rd century... having an 'artificial navigator' (aka computer) shouldn't have been an issue to navigate the mycelial network.

We know the only reason they classified the spore drive was because if they hadn't, it would break the canon... but from my point of view... the 24th century as we saw it should have really been 23rd century set about 30 years after TOS. Not enough change happened on a science/technical basis to justify the 24th century as we saw it... it was barely a few decades more ahead of the 23rd (just like the real life passage of time).

Oh well.

Too many missed opportunities to use advanced technologies on so many occasions or to show proper advancement.

It looks like the writers just prefer to keep things 'as they are' (which is ridiculously unrealistic for the premise of Trek in the first place) so they just 'forget' about new/advanced technologies as if they never existed (case in point, numerous episodes featured a lot of interesting uses for existing technologies that were never seen again - just forgotten).

The writers just don't seem that comfortable with creating stories with more advanced technology for fear that the galaxy would become 'too small' (which in itself is stupid because even with the Spore Drive it would take quite a long time to explore every facet of the Milky Way) or that it would become a 'crutch' to solving problems (well excuse me, but technologically developed societies solve problems with science and technology).

It looks like not even Slipstream drive is being used by Starfleet at all (Voyager was able to create its own improved version in Timeless episode about 6 months after encountering the original technology in Hope and Fear episode... which crossed through 10 000 Ly's in about 1 minute - sure it had the phase variance issue, but Starfleet would have been able to solve that issue likely within months of Voyager coming back to the AQ - especially when you consider the fact SF has a lot more resources at its disposal and the immense advantages over Warp drive in terms of speeds it offers).

Heck, even Warp drive still seems as slow as ever in Picard... even though the USS Prometheus was the only ship capable of travelling at Warp 9.9 sustainably (Voyager couldn't despite official statement its sustainable cruise speed being 9.975 - which they never achieved or sustained... the ship started breaking apart by reaching 9.9 alone according to actual dialogue... because if Voyager were able to achieve and sustain 9.975 as a top cruising speed... it would be able to get back to Earth in 7 days), it showed an improvement in just 4 years after its launch... whereas the Enterprise-D was initially able to sustain maybe 9.2-9.6 - and that class of ship came 7 years before Voyager) - either that or the La Sirena is exceptionally slow and most of Starfleet did in fact upgrade their Warp drives severely.

 

[Thomas_Sullivan]

To be fair, the issue of finding a biological navigator shouldn't have been an issue. The premise you need an 'organic' entity is also flawed.

Apparently, the writers fail to understand that computers are already able to do things at least 1000 times faster than a group of humans can (this is with today's technology).
With technology Starfleet had in mid 23rd century... having an 'artificial navigator' (aka computer) shouldn't have been an issue to navigate the mycelial network.

I actually find the whole concept of the spore drive to be questionable at best, and Discovery itself to be extremely subpar, but it is possible that they were aping the mechanics of slipstream in Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda. In that universe, slipstream is another dimensional space where all the quantum connections of reality are visible as "strings," which can be used to "ride" to a different spatial coordinate. Due to the complex nature of slipstream probability (i.e. choosing the right path) and difficulty in mapping slipstream, only biological entities are capable of successfully navigating it.

-- Tom

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Apparently, the writers fail to understand that computers are already able to do things at least 1000 times faster than a group of humans can (this is with today's technology).

Just like Quantum Computers are good for "Different Types" of calculations, I don't think current day Classical or Quantum computers will be optimal for processing the type of data that the Spore Drive would deliver.

The fact that a biological entity does it better seems to point that there are certain types of data / signals that we as biological beings are better at processing within a short amount of time.

Ergo, it makes sense that due to the speed of traversing the Mycelial Network, present day computers would be limited while the biological navigator would be optimal. Maybe a century or two later, there might be new specialized computers designed to handle navigation within the Mycelial Network that would negate the need for a biological navigator, but until that day happens, you'll be stuck with "Short Jumps".

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Heck, even Warp drive still seems as slow as ever in Picard... even though the USS Prometheus was the only ship capable of travelling at Warp 9.9 sustainably (Voyager couldn't despite official statement its sustainable cruise speed being 9.975 - which they never achieved or sustained... the ship started breaking apart by reaching 9.9 alone according to actual dialogue... because if Voyager were able to achieve and sustain 9.975 as a top cruising speed... it would be able to get back to Earth in 7 days), it showed an improvement in just 4 years after its launch... whereas the Enterprise-D was initially able to sustain maybe 9.2-9.6 - and that class of ship came 7 years before Voyager) - either that or the La Sirena is exceptionally slow and most of Starfleet did in fact upgrade their Warp drives severely.

I'd venture that 9.975 was only possible by Voyager for minutes at best, their sustained cruise speed is much slower.
Even Enterprise-D can't sustain 9.2-9.6 for that long.

I'm sure with the technolgical R&D StarFleet puts in + all the tech Voyager brought back, they probably have Quantum SlipStream working by now and deployed across the fleet during the time of ST:PIC.

La Sirena is probably pretty dang fast for a "Speed Freighter".

 

[Deks]

I'd venture that 9.975 was only possible by Voyager for minutes at best, their sustained cruise speed is much slower.
Even Enterprise-D can't sustain 9.2-9.6 for that long.

I'm sure with the technolgical R&D StarFleet puts in + all the tech Voyager brought back, they probably have Quantum SlipStream working by now and deployed across the fleet during the time of ST:PIC.

La Sirena is probably pretty dang fast for a "Speed Freighter".

Warp 9.975 was not possible for seconds, let alone minutes for Voyager.
In episode 'Threshold', when Voyager was reaching Warp 9.9 (in an attempt to match Tom's shuttle before it reached Warp 10), here's the dialogue:
KIM: They're approaching warp nine point nine.
CHAKOTAY: Increase speed to match.
COMPUTER: Warning. Nearing maximum warp velocity. Structural collapse is imminent.
CHAKOTAY: Are we in tractor range?
KIM: No, and they're still accelerating. Warp nine point nine seven.
COMPUTER: Warning. At present speed, structural failure in forty five seconds.
CHAKOTAY: Reduce sped to warp nine point five. Keep a sensor lock on them as long as you can.

Voyager couldn't possibly reach Warp 9.97... structural collapse was imminent at 9.9.

In another episode ('The Swarm' I think) Tom Paris mentioned that he could try holding Warp 9.75 for as long as he could... followed by Chakotay who said: 'If we can sustain that for 12 hours, we'd be a third of the way through'.
Transcript:
JANEWAY: All right, let's get through this as fast as we can. Mister Paris, what's your recommendation?
PARIS: I'll try holding warp nine point seven five for as long as I can.
CHAKOTAY: If we can sustain that for twelve hours we'll be nearly a third of the way through.

Also, in episode 'the 37's', when Amelia Earhart asked Paris how fast Voyager is, he said: 'Warp 9.9. In your terms that's about 4 billion miles per second' - which translates to 21 475 times the speed of light... at which speed, the ship would be able to reach Federation space in 3 and a half years (if they had to cross 75 000 Lightyears).

If Voyager could indeed sustain 9.975 for any appreciable amount of time, 9.9 would have been a piece of cake in comparison and could have maintained that for the entire journey.

Later on, we've seen (in Season 4 'Message in the Bottle') that the USS Prometheus was traveling at Warp 9.9 towards Romulan space (without any turbulence or issues), and it was mentioned that it was designed to be the fastest ship in the fleet by its EMH.

From these instances, we can conclude that the writers made an error when they said Voyager's maximum sustainable cruising speed was Warp 9.975.
Maximum sustainable cruising velocity is not 'absolute maximum' and in fact means that you should be able to reach/maintain that velocity for as long as you need it and have the resources/fuel to maintain it - implying the structural integrity would be able to handle that velocity without problems (the only issue would be deuterium/anti-matter consumption - but if a ship was DESIGNED for those speeds, then it would also imply that it should be able to sustain it for long periods of time without issues of running out any time soon - indeed, Janeway also mentioned that the Warp core can go on for 3 years before being refilled - and obviously, they found ways to extend anti-matter supply, found new potential sources of it like omicron particles in other areas of space which could increase their anti-matter reserves, and traded with other species).

If we were talking about Warp 9.98 for example, you'd encounter structural limitations that would force the ship to drop out of warp probably after about 12 hours, however, Warp 9.985 to 9.99 would be 'maximum Warp speed' for Intrepid class ship which the vessel might be able to maintain for seconds at best (aka 'nearing maximum warp velocity, structural collapse is imminent and you'll be blown to bits in less than half a minute').
From this we can deduce the following:

Enterprise-D top cruising speed: Warp 9.2 - 9.6
Defiant top cruising speed: Warp 8.5-ish (Warp 9.1 could be maintained if the weapons are taken offline and energy transfered to structural integrity).
Voyager's top cruising speed: Warp 9.5 - 9.7
Prometheus top cruising speed: Warp 9.9

That makes a lot more sense based on what we've seen regularly from TNG onward.

It also establishes that Warp 9.9 is relatively fast... but only the USS Prometheus was able to reach/maintain it in TV Trek canon (so far as we know), and that was a deep-space tactical ship made 4 years after Voyager was lost in the Delta Quadrant.

 

[matthunter]

STO is set in 2410 and has:

1) limited system of transwarp gates for instant travel to key systems
2) all ships have some limited ability to remote activate these gates (so a Fed ship in random system XYZ can insta-travel to Earth orbit even if system XYZ lacks a gate)
3) the new warp scale of All Good Things applies past Warp 9.99, becoming Transwarp 10+ (my ship can do Transwarp 18)
4) Weapons go up to Mark XIV (some EU sources suggested Mk XII phasers were planet-based only as of 2375 - the TNG Tech Manual had the E-D's phasers as Mk X and Voyager was said to be equivalent)
5) Ships can have limited bursts of Quantum Slipstream drive (equivalent to Transwarp 33), representing the idea from VOY that the field becomes unstable if left too long - these systems are restricted to ships commanded by Admirals or above (i.e. anyone once they reach endgame)
6) Transphasic torpedoes are a thing, but the Borg have partially adapted (more of the torpedo damage bleeds through shields than any other torpedo type).
7) Personal holo-emitters like the Doctor's are commonplace and ships make routine use of Emergency Security Holograms, Emergency Engineering Holograms, etc. The Daystrom Institute is still figuring out when to class holograms as sentient... though the Doctor is acknowledged as such and now holds the rank of Lt. Commander.
8) Personal shields are now a thing.

 

[Oddish]

Voyager still shouldn't have needed 70 years to get where it was going.

According to the warp speed calculator, Warp 9.975 is about 5120c. Figure a ship cruises at 70% its top (flank) speed, and that is 3584c. Let's round down to 3500. For a 70,000 light year trip, that's 20 years of flight. Allow time for refueling, maintenance, trade, and the occasional first contact, that's probably 22-23 years.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Voyager still shouldn't have needed 70 years to get where it was going.

According to the warp speed calculator, Warp 9.975 is about 5120c. Figure a ship cruises at 70% its top (flank) speed, and that is 3584c. Let's round down to 3500. For a 70,000 light year trip, that's 20 years of flight. Allow time for refueling, maintenance, trade, and the occasional first contact, that's probably 22-23 years.

+ Voyager's Unscheduled 70,000 ly journey from the Delta Quadrant to home
- Based on the on-screen estimates of 75 year journey has a average cruise speed of Warp 8 assuming unlimited fuel
- Warp 8 = 1024c
- Warp 8 would take 68.36 years if non-stop with unlimited fuel, but given stops, repairs, exploration, etc. They probably rounded up to 75 years
- That means I can guess that Warp 8 was their cruise speed assuming unlimited fuel (A VERY Unrealistic Scenario)
- Galaxy Class initial Average Cruise speed was Warp 6, but later on became Warp 7

Top speed like 9.975 can probably be used consistently for probably hrs on end at best. It's not something you can pull very often without unnecessary wear & tear on the Warp Engines.

 

[Deks]

+ Voyager's Unscheduled 70,000 ly journey from the Delta Quadrant to home
- Based on the on-screen estimates of 75 year journey has a average cruise speed of Warp 8 assuming unlimited fuel
- Warp 8 = 1024c
- Warp 8 would take 68.36 years if non-stop with unlimited fuel, but given stops, repairs, exploration, etc. They probably rounded up to 75 years
- That means I can guess that Warp 8 was their cruise speed assuming unlimited fuel (A VERY Unrealistic Scenario)
- Galaxy Class initial Average Cruise speed was Warp 6, but later on became Warp 7

Top speed like 9.975 can probably be used consistently for probably hrs on end at best. It's not something you can pull very often without unnecessary wear & tear on the Warp Engines.

Except that Warp 9.9.75 was mentioned repeatedly to be 'maximum sustainable warp velocity' or 'top cruising speed' for Voyager.
Those terms imply by their very description you can usually maintain a speed indefinitely (or for as long as you have the fuel to do so) without worrying about engine damage.

However, the more likely explanation is the writers got it wrong and it was supposed to be 9.75 (as it was actually confirmed in several episodes of Voyager in dialogue and also using previous 24th century Starfleet ships as a benchmark... namely, no ships in Starfleet by the TNG era could travel much faster than Warp 9.6).

For Voyager to 'suddenly' be able to maintain 9.975 (less than a decade from ENT-D commission) would mean they'd cross 75 000 Ly's in just under a week... which would actually be in line with the concept of 'exponential developments in science and technology and their returns' (especially for the Federation which is comprised of over 150 species by that time and should have been developing at a FAR faster pace), but we know the writers didn't exactly think along those lines.

Also, Voyager was usually cruising at Warp 6 (not 8).
They did use Warp 8 after the Kazon briefly took over the ship and left the crew on that planet with that cave creature that ate Holden... but they did so to make up for lost time.

Although, Voyager also had issues with power reserves and resources in the first 2 years... probably because of all the damage the ship endured when pushed halfway across the galaxy (which was significant in the pilot episodes).

It is very likely that Voyager used automation to repair a lot of damage, but some of the problems persisted as no ship was probably designed to withstand that kind of push from 75 000 ly's away.

 

[Timo]

A few hipshots:

Warp 9.975 was not possible for seconds, let alone minutes for Voyager.
In episode 'Threshold', when Voyager was reaching Warp 9.9 (in an attempt to match Tom's shuttle before it reached Warp 10), here's the dialogue:
KIM: They're approaching warp nine point nine.
CHAKOTAY: Increase speed to match.

Okay, so let's assume that this order remains standing even when the heroes risk falling down from all the shaking. If so...

KIM: No, and they're still accelerating. Warp nine point nine seven.
COMPUTER: Warning. At present speed, structural failure in forty five seconds.

...This means the computer predicts structural failure if nothing changes - that is, if Voyager keeps on accelerating to match Paris' shuttle!

This is different from the ship shaking apart from maintaining any given speed, be it the quoted 9.9 (which we never actually heard achieved, mind you) or the hoped.for 9.97 (which still wouldn't have sufficed). The top speed of the hero vessel is approaching rapidly, quite regardless of what that speed might be, because at the rate Paris is accelerating and the ship supposedly matching, they'll reach warp 9.999 well before the 45 seconds are up!

It's a separate issue from whether 9.9 or 9.97 or 9.975 could have been maintained if there was no acceleration. Although of course the prognosis for that isn't too good, with all the shaking we see at the given speeds already, we could attribute the shaking to the acceleration and assume that the pilot or the computer could trim the ship to smooth running at any of those ships if they just stuck to one of those.

If Voyager could indeed sustain 9.975 for any appreciable amount of time, 9.9 would have been a piece of cake in comparison and could have maintained that for the entire journey.

I don't think it's particularly difficult to believe in an inverse relationship between speed and the ability to maintain it - but on a rather more drastic scale. If you keep up warp 9.75 for twelve hours, this might give you an average speed of warp 5 across 24 hours, due to the cooldown and maintenance needs. If you kept up warp 9.975 for twelve ours, you'd get warp 2, for the much greater compensation needs, though. And if you did warp 9.0, you might attain warp 6 average, and at warp 8.0, you could get the warp 6.8 that Barclay credits the heroes with, in the long term.

"Sustaining" any speed on today's oceans is a matter of hours, save for nuclear vessels. And of those, only the submarines really apply, as the cruisers are now gone and the carriers can't survive cruising alone at 30 kt. There's no pressing reason to think starships ought to sustain high speeds for years straight, either. Although there's good reason to assume they can sustain moderate speeds for years straight if need be.

To be fair, the issue of finding a biological navigator shouldn't have been an issue. The premise you need an 'organic' entity is also flawed. Apparently, the writers fail to understand that computers are already able to do things at least 1000 times faster than a group of humans can (this is with today's technology). With technology Starfleet had in mid 23rd century... having an 'artificial navigator' (aka computer) shouldn't have been an issue to navigate the mycelial network.

I doubt the reason they needed Stamets to fly was his incredible brain capacity. The way they danced around the issue, Stamets just tapped into the resources of the tardigrades by pretending to be one of them. And the tardigrades in turn need not have had supercomputers inside their pretty little heads, either. It was all about networking, after all, and the water bears could have been tapping into networked computing resources to begin with. And now Stamets stole a bit of their bandwidth, by performing a masquerade no machine from that era would be capable of.

We know the only reason they classified the spore drive was because if they hadn't, it would break the canon...

Hey, really - it was a wartime invention, so there was a perfectly good in-universe reason to classify it from the get-go, and to never go public, at least not within the scope of the adventures of Kirk and pals, who were all about gunning down the evil Klingons.

At the juncture of "Sweet Sorrow II", nothing really happened. A secret project remained secret. Possibly a few sporeships were flying in the deep background and letting the Feds win a few against their public and not-so-public enemies, just as Starfleet no doubt operated quite a few cloaks and made deals with quite a few gods.

The only interesting thing here would be what happens after Khitomer. Does the secret of the Secret Nazi Antarctic Base die with the last Secret Nazi Scientists (with some gracious help from S31 in the dying part), or does it remain "normally secret" knowledge in the SF Intel archives? If the latter, why does it remain secret forever? I can see SFI knowing about the Borg and the Bigfoot, and this knowledge not surfacing because it was in no way relevant, till it eventually was. But would a superior form of travel be relevant? Probably not, if the UFP was doing so well with just basic warp.

This sort of a grace period would necessarily follow the VOY acquisitions as well, as the government spent a generation or perhaps two deciding whether to eliminate the witnesses or gradually let the discoveries leak in a controlled manner. After all, it has apparently worked for millennia - it's not as if the Feds could bring much new to that equation at this late stage of the game.

but from my point of view... the 24th century as we saw it should have really been 23rd century set about 30 years after TOS. Not enough change happened on a science/technical basis to justify the 24th century as we saw it... it was barely a few decades more ahead of the 23rd (just like the real life passage of time).

Why would the UFP move ahead in just a few decades or centuries or millennia? Its assorted members have been in the business for longer than that, and have come up with nothing truly new in that time. Say, South America has massive potential in its population, and was dragged kicking and screaming to the 16th century, back in the 16th century. It hasn't exactly made progress since then. That is, progress that would somehow speed ahead of that made by those who did the original dragging. It was just a single exceptional leap, and nothing ever came out of it; research in Sao Paulo does not differ from research in Bologna, despite a millennium of difference in the age of said research.

Having technology advance sounds awfully unrealistic in an environment where technologies freely interact across the galaxy. If your tech is up to the snuff, you survive; if not, and you can't afford to buy and don't know how to steal, you cease to be. But there's no mechanism for cutting ahead. And no way to be more active in the field of research than the Old Masters who invented it all a billion years ago already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Oddish]

+ Voyager's Unscheduled 70,000 ly journey from the Delta Quadrant to home
- Based on the on-screen estimates of 75 year journey has a average cruise speed of Warp 8 assuming unlimited fuel
- Warp 8 = 1024c
- Warp 8 would take 68.36 years if non-stop with unlimited fuel, but given stops, repairs, exploration, etc. They probably rounded up to 75 years
- That means I can guess that Warp 8 was their cruise speed assuming unlimited fuel (A VERY Unrealistic Scenario)
- Galaxy Class initial Average Cruise speed was Warp 6, but later on became Warp 7

Top speed like 9.975 can probably be used consistently for probably hrs on end at best. It's not something you can pull very often without unnecessary wear & tear on the Warp Engines.

That means that warp mechanics must be very different than normal ships. A ship that can hit warp 9.975 (5126c) but suatains warp 8 (1024c) is like a surface ship that can hit 35 knots at flank, but only cruises at 7.

If you delete a "9", making it warp 9.75, you get 2300c. Allowing the same 70% cruise velocity (80-90 is more typical), that's 1610c. That makes the journey 44 years or so. To make it 70, you'd need a cruise speed of only 44% max speed. Seems a bit low.

All speeds determined with the warp speed calculator: https://www.st-minutiae.com/resources/warp/index.html

 

[matthunter]

Comparing to surface ships is pointless. Higher warp factors are stated to be on a curve that requires more and more energy approaching infinity as you go towards Warp 10.

A better comparison is the Bugatti Veyron - it needs just 270bph to hit 155mph. But hitting it's TOP speed of 250mph takes another 730bhp. Nature is pushing back against you the faster you try to go.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Prior to VOY, it seemed (to me) that once you crossed Warp 9.5 or so, you were already moving at "ludicrous speed" and could probably cross vast regions of space within the span of a commercial break. In comparison, back then, Warp 10 was like "going to plaid."

 

[Oddish]

Comparing to surface ships is pointless. Higher warp factors are stated to be on a curve that requires more and more energy approaching infinity as you go towards Warp 10.

A better comparison is the Bugatti Veyron - it needs just 270bph to hit 155mph. But hitting it's TOP speed of 250mph takes another 730bhp. Nature is pushing back against you the faster you try to go.

Maybe. But the Enterprise can sustain Warp 9 (1500c) but has to slow down after 12 hours at 9.6 (1900c). That suggests that its sustainable speed is not too far off its top speed.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I don't believe there will ever be a consensus regarding "sustainable cruise velocity." It was a casually-written line of dialogue that has sparked 25 years of debate on this board, with no apparent end in sight. Depending on what camp you're in, it could mean a ship's ultimate top speed...or not.