Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed
- Thread starter brian577
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Problem with that is, God supposedly created us flawed without "us" (as in our ancestors) having a choice in becoming cursed and flawed.
So he created us broken with an actve part on our side to be loopholed into paradise...
That makes God just a dick!
So he created us broken with an actve part on our side to be loopholed into paradise...
That makes God just a dick!
Well, the Pope's off to a good start.
Does this mean I don't get to hang out in limbo anymore?
I realize the statement is not meant as such, because of his possibly sincere belief, but it still carries the insult that we are ALL broken and guilty and need redemption in the first place because of what imaginary mud guy and rib girl did 6000 years ago.
Forget mud guy and rib girl. People are all broken, and we are all guilty of doing something hurtful to someone along the way.
Nope, the Catholic Church has never taught Biblical literalism. Because the fundamentalists / literalists get so much press, a lot of people assume that all Christians are literalists. The reality is that Catholics and mainstream Protestants (Episcopalian/Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.) are not. If some individuals are, it's despite their denomination's teachings, not because of them.
This isn't surprising from the Holy See. As I've always said about those of us in the Catholic Faith, we're always far too busy hating ourselves to take the time to hate others.
On a serious note, while the Church does have some positions that I still do disagree with them on, it's good to see them taking a step out in front of so many of the mainstream Protestant sects yet again.
On a serious note, while the Church does have some positions that I still do disagree with them on, it's good to see them taking a step out in front of so many of the mainstream Protestant sects yet again.
I like you, but... that's bullshit. Damaging bullshit, too.
So he is going with Aquinas instead of Augustine. A little more tolerant. Still all bullshat though.
We all have weaknesses of some sort, we have all made mistakes, we have all been hurt at some time. That's all I mean. Not that we're all bad or something. You think that's bullshit?
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Hmm, how come? Everybody's made mistakes, everybody's hurt and been hurt.
Or basically what she said just above me, lol. Especially the "not that we're all bad."
Things are broken. Not people.
To me it still smacks of people as sinners or fallen from some perfect form in short Christian guilt. Having limitations such as a disability, or less facility at math or languages, or having made some mistake to be rectified does not make one broken or fallen in some fashion.
^True, it does. To me, that is not a problem, because no matter how good we are -- and I do believe that most people are mostly good -- we all still do some bad things. One way some people/religions describe that is by saying that we are all sinners.
Then suggest a better word for what I was describing.
Then suggest a better word for what I was describing.
Obviously you are entirely correct. I am an ex-Catholic but I don't think that original sin / fall from paradise are bad literal-religious ways to express what you described in plain English.
I think what some people do have a problem with though is the way that the Catholic church has historically approached this, with confession (oh, I am so bad, I have sinned, punish me) on the one hand and all the songs about the glory of God which are uplifting (it is like a spiritual drug, it makes you feel godo for some time).
I think that an ideal church should be a place where people can "lower their shields" and show how broken they are. Peter Rollins can it express better than me. And I guess that the early Christian communities which consisted of many poor people and outsiders were more similar to this than post-Constantine Christianity.
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Indeed. And, actually, confession -- or the Sacrament of Reconciliation, to use the current term -- can be a good place to lower one's shields, when the priest approaches it that way. Unfortunately, they usually don't.
The problem is that that kind of language (broken, fallen, evil, sinners, etc) shifts the blame from what we do to what we are. It takes away personal responsibility. "Good" and "evil" are just labels for promoting or censoring behaviours that are beneficial or harmful: they are not states of being.
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Even being one of those who believes that one gets to Heaven by faith in Christ, I think this is a fine thing for the Pope to say. Good on him. 
