If you look at the whole curve from about 1992 on that's pretty much the only conclusion you can reach, yeah.
Poll: Bring Janeway back?
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If you look at the whole curve from about 1992 on that's pretty much the only conclusion you can reach, yeah.
For any Janeway fans still hanging around, I'd just like to mention that Full Circle is absolutely worth it. Absolutely. Possibly the finest Voyager novel published to date. Not perfect, but in all the ways that mattered everything I was hoping for.
I hope that anyone on the fence does take the time to give it a chance. It may very well surprise you.
I hope that anyone on the fence does take the time to give it a chance. It may very well surprise you.
*is also waiting in Canada*
Oh yeah, if they kill Vaughn I'm going to boycott the DS9R books!
ok, I won't, but I will be as upset as when they killed Kirk or Data.
Dear Thrawn, I don't want to be rude and I have no intention to come up with anything which you might find offensive in any way.
But do you really believe that ardent Janeway fans will like or even appreciate a story in which their favorite character is killed off?
I mean, it's like trying to persuade me to watch "Fury" and try to find something positive in that episode.
As for watching episodes, I watched "Jetrel" yesterday. Now that's a well-written episode which even those who like a "darker trek" should watch. A lot of drama, touching scenes and great character interaction in an episode which deals with death, mass destruction and the burden of living with the consequences of one's actions. And all that without killing off or ruining main characters!
Believe me when I tell you, wholeheartedly, that I was in no way talking to you.
Did ardent Superman fans complain when Superman was killed off in the comics? Sales went through the roof, IIRC.
Did ardent Robin fans complain when Jason Todd was killed off in the comics? Sales went through the roof, IIRC. And the fans voted for him to die in a phone poll.
Did ardent Spock fans complain when he was killed off in ST II? Sure, they even took out an ad in "Variety" to complain, but they still went to see the movie, and many reluctantly agreed that the death enhanced the storyline of the movie, and that it gave us new insights into Kirk. And this was long before Nimoy suggested he'd be happy to return in ST III.
Fine.
Yes, I DO think that some ardent Janeway fans could like a story in which their favorite character is killed off.
Obviously, you are not among those particular ardent fans; hence, "I hope that anyone on the fence does take the time to give it a chance." No one in a million years would describe you as "on the fence".
Do I expect you to like this book? No.
Do I expect some people to like this book? Well, the first amazon.com review is from someone that disliked Janeway's death strongly, but still gave it 5 stars and said it's the relaunch book fans have been waiting for. So yes. I expect some ardent Janeway fans will like it, and that's why I posted.
So of course you responded in haughty disbelief, refusing to acknowledge other people could disagree with you, as I expected.
Tell me - do you think you've convinced a single person to not buy this book? Do you think you've convinced a single person that this story is unjust or unnecessary?
Yes, I DO think that some ardent Janeway fans could like a story in which their favorite character is killed off.
Obviously, you are not among those particular ardent fans; hence, "I hope that anyone on the fence does take the time to give it a chance." No one in a million years would describe you as "on the fence".
Do I expect you to like this book? No.
Do I expect some people to like this book? Well, the first amazon.com review is from someone that disliked Janeway's death strongly, but still gave it 5 stars and said it's the relaunch book fans have been waiting for. So yes. I expect some ardent Janeway fans will like it, and that's why I posted.
So of course you responded in haughty disbelief, refusing to acknowledge other people could disagree with you, as I expected.
Tell me - do you think you've convinced a single person to not buy this book? Do you think you've convinced a single person that this story is unjust or unnecessary?
I also wanted to quote Lynx's response here, but am still learning and failing, I'm afraid, how to multi-quote.
For what it is worth, I have found the numerous "is she dead yet" and "she betta be alive otherwise we're going to kill ourselves and take you all with us" threads very illuminating.
As a TNG fan (exclusively) up to Destiny, I have found myself at turns deeply sympathetic to Lynx et al and incredibly frustrated - sometimes both at the same time!
Knowing absolutely nothing, zilch, zero about Voyager, these threads have been very educational. And I've learned a lot about the ST universe that I was sadly lacking.
David Mack's trilogy got me hooked on non-TNG canon and and non-canon characters I knew nothing about. And that is what has made me purchase A Singular Destiny, which I'm mid-way through (and loving, btw).
And although I've never watched Voyager, I've now made the great leap forward and puchased Ms Beyer's book.
So, for what it's worth, all this debating back and forth, with all its pros and cons, has at least resulted in one particular ST niche customer widening her focus to engage with other parts of the franchise that prior to Mack's book and all these intense debates, would have held no interest for her at all.
So, I just want to thank Thrawn and Lynx and Trent and the rest of you for opening my eyes to a broader perspective.
So far, I'm loving it.
Why are only Janeway fans supposedly threatened by debating here? No one here agrees with everyone about everything.
I'm really glad to hear that. I love getting the alternative perspectives on this board; I even loved hearing Lynx's perspective the first few times, I thought we had a dynamite discussion about two months ago, and the recent exchange with Trent about main character death in this thread really made me think.
I love that such thoughtful people come on here and discuss these things; I've learned so many new perspectives myself since joining here. I just read Reunion, which I wouldn't have before (not being such a huge fan of MJF, I wasn't expecting to like it) but based on recommendations I did, and found that I'm really intrigued by the Stargazer crew. So that's another 7 books I'm gonna have to dig up...
I really hope you enjoy Full Circle or, even if you don't, that it makes you think. There is so much interesting stuff going on in TrekLit these days!
Lynx - the difference between this and Fury is that Fury was a really shitty episode. This is a truly outstanding novel. Any particular idea can be executed well and executed terribly, and it would be worth mentioning if this were executed terribly, like Fury.
I couldn't really care one way or the other about Kes, and I still found Fury to be an annoying viewing experience. I found little positive in it either way. But even for a Janeway-death-is-a-dealbreaker person, there's a self-contained adventure for the first 300 pages of this book that brings everyone back together before she dies that I think any fan of the show would love.
You seem determined to present things as a rigid dichotomy, using all crappy instances of main character death to support the idea that all instances of main character death are crappy. Sometimes, good stories really are written this way, and this is one of them.
But you'd still hate it; I'm not saying you should buy it. I'm saying, recognize that there are people for whom this might be an incredibly frustrating plot twist that would still like this book because it's well written, exciting, moving, and treats every character including the ones that leave or die with the utmost of respect and depth. And for some people, that's worth it, even IF they agree with you.
I couldn't really care one way or the other about Kes, and I still found Fury to be an annoying viewing experience. I found little positive in it either way. But even for a Janeway-death-is-a-dealbreaker person, there's a self-contained adventure for the first 300 pages of this book that brings everyone back together before she dies that I think any fan of the show would love.
You seem determined to present things as a rigid dichotomy, using all crappy instances of main character death to support the idea that all instances of main character death are crappy. Sometimes, good stories really are written this way, and this is one of them.
But you'd still hate it; I'm not saying you should buy it. I'm saying, recognize that there are people for whom this might be an incredibly frustrating plot twist that would still like this book because it's well written, exciting, moving, and treats every character including the ones that leave or die with the utmost of respect and depth. And for some people, that's worth it, even IF they agree with you.
I have no doubt that the stories in "Destiny" and "Full Circle" must be better written than "Fury".
But for many fans of Janeway, the outcome would probably be the same as it would be for me to re-watch "Fury".
However, I see nothing wrong in reading the book and create an own opinion about it. However, I do have a feeling that most of those who are unhappy with the death of Janeway will change their minds about that particular event even if they might happen to find the books well-written.
LaBarre wrote:
Well, I don't think that any of the Janeway fans who are against the killing off of the character have any intentions to kill themselves. In that case, there would be no one left to demand that she should return in some upcoming book.
Well, at least it has created a very intense and passionate debate.
Therin Of Andor wrote:
I'm not familiar with the fanbase of Superman and Batman and how they are reacting to similar things so I won't comment on them but I do have a feeling that those series have very little continuity. I mean, we have main characters and villains killed off in this magazine here and that movie there and then they show up again in some upcoming movie or magazine without any explanation how and why they are back. Trek is different in that aspect.
There were many who were upset by Spock's death and protested against it. As for the fact that they still went to see the movie, well there were no Internet then and the only way to figure out what had happened was to watch it. Besides that, there might also have been some respect and understanding for the actor's decision to quit, not to mention that those who were unhappy over Spock's death might still have had books to read where the character would be alive.
I must also say that if Spock hadn't returned in the third movie, there would have been a risk for a decline in the interest for the upcoming movies and for the whole of Star Trek.
Even today, not all of Star Trek's fans use the Internet. In the old days we still had reviews in "Starlog".
Are you saying that if those fans didn't watch/read something, then it never really happened?
And Janeway is alive and well in lots of Voyager novels, so what is your point?
Even if Janeway is never resurrected in the current timeline, you continue to speak as if the character is forever banned from appearing in any new ST stories, even those set prior to "Before Dishonor".
I have also just read the book and completely agree the book does justice to all the main TV show characters who returned to the AQ.
In my opinion, Full Circle offers a Janeway who was just that. Captain Kathryn Janeway.
What I didn't expect from the book was a feeling of closure - the events in BD left a bitter taste in my mouth but at the end of Full Circle, I got understanding. In fact, in some ways, I feel as though I went through the last stage of grief, acceptance.
Sure Janeway is still dead. As we know, Full Circle doesn't change that. That may be a deal-breaker for you, if so, fine. But for those who are willing to push that boundary, I hope (and expect) Full Circle offers you something you will enjoy.
Why are you constantly trying to misinterpret and twist my words? I haven't written that "if those fans didn't watch/read something, then it never really happened", I have written that there were no Internet in which this event could be described/debated or be warned for so many fans had to watch the movie to see what did happen.
Haven't those in charge of the relaunch stated that she will remain dead?
As for stories in the timeline before "Before Dishonor", the timeline between "Caretaker" and the latest events is much more narrow than, let's say the TNG timeline and most of all the TOS timeline where there's about 30 years or more in which it's possible to cram in adventures for Kirk's crew (which is a reason why I prefer to write Kes stories which takes place in an after-"Endgame" timeline, rather than writing them in the narrow timeline of seasons 1-3 of Voyager, not to mention that all those events leads up the the events in "The Gift" and "Fury" while my stories leads away from them
).
Doesn't prevent a "Young Janeway" book. Maybe even put her in more Lost Era novels?
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