Poll: Bring Janeway back?

[kimc]

However, I find it telling that people get shocked about the fact that Janeway has been leading in polls for favorite Captain lately. It shows that this board must have been without Janeway fans for quite a while, or perhaps they just stayed silent. Again, I'm not trying to "fix" anything with that statement. It's just an observation.

During the show's run there were a lot more Janeway fans as other posters who were here at that time can attest to. For various reasons we don't need to get into they drifted off. The Janeway board teya mentioned is no longer active but there are a few strong J/C boards where many still hang out.

Personally, I feel the board has been pretty unbalanced since most of them left so it's good to see some come back. As for the threads/posts on Janeway's death folks need to vent - that is only human and makes sense. As for those who aren't venting or who aren't interested in a good conversation - well I can go on about them but I need to leave for a party.

 

[Gorf]

Dude, what's done in TNZ stays in TNZ (If you don't post in TNZ, I have no idea who you are).

I don't even have a clue what TNZ stands for so nah can't and won't hold you responsible for anything you might or might not have said or done there.

No, I was simply refering to the fact that you've made quite a few remarks that I'd classify as rather rude and pointless to me and others in the past, but I know you're not a fan of Voyager or these discussions, so I can deal with it. Hell heated things have been said on both sides and I've blown a gasket a few times so...all's well than ends well.

 

[JustKate]

^ TNZ = "The Neutral Zone" - it's a BBS forum for discussions on more controversial subjects. You have to have made a certain number of posts to go there, and you have to ask for mod approval. I've never visited, but I'm told you can find some very....interesting discussions there.

 

[Therin of Andor]

if you can't or don't want to understand them, the next best thing is to just leave those in grief alone.

We've been told not to belittle them, not to tease them, not to chase them away with our humor, not to "shut down" their complaints, but...

... grief-stricken people, who come back to a room every few days, saying, "Hey everyone who thinks I'm grieving unnecessarily, I'm still here and I'm still grieving" are testing everyone's patience, no?

We get that they're grieving. Kirsten Beyer's upcoming book will specifically address the grieving of Janeway's onscreen friends, and maybe Janeway's actual fans can pick up some coping skills by reading the novel, and seeing how Chakotay et al are managing their situation?

 

[Gorf]

^ TNZ = "The Neutral Zone" - it's a BBS forum for discussions on more controversial subjects. You have to have made a certain number of posts to go there, and you have to ask for mod approval. I've never visited, but I'm told you can find some very....interesting discussions there.

Thanks for the explanation.

I have no desire to go there. I'm quite happy where I am. I just found it funny if he thought I was from there since I didnt even know what it stood for.

 

[JustKate]

^ You're welcome. I don't go because I hear enough discussions, pointless or not, about hot topics out here in the real world - I don't need the Trek BBS for that!

 

[teya]

As for those who aren't venting or who aren't interested in a good conversation - well I can go on about them but I need to leave for a party.

There are some in here who aren't venting but are interested in a good conversation. We've been making some decent points.

I'm not sure what there is to "go on about."

 

[MilitantJaneway]

And now, when there is an author with some imagination taken over the writing of the book, it was too late because Janeway is dead and Chak is mourning!

Here's an idea! Read the book, enjoy Kirsten Beyer's writing, follow the storyline through the next few books, and see if Janeway ever returns. Meanwhile, enjoy learning about how the characters will cope with their loss, showing all their strengths, finding new strengths and weaknesses within themselves, and whatever else Ms Beyer brings to the table.

Essentially, you are demanding to know the outcome of a story arc that hasn't even been completed by the author yet, refusing to even get involved with it, just in case the eventual resolution might not meet with your approval.

Trust a professional author to tell the best story she can, in the way she wants to tell it.

Are we going to get more voyager books after these two are out? I have to wonder. With the main character offed off and the others being sucked into the other series. I wonder after this jaunt of Voy back in the DQ is done we will be left with zilch!

 

[Square]

And now, when there is an author with some imagination taken over the writing of the book, it was too late because Janeway is dead and Chak is mourning!

Here's an idea! Read the book, enjoy Kirsten Beyer's writing, follow the storyline through the next few books, and see if Janeway ever returns. Meanwhile, enjoy learning about how the characters will cope with their loss, showing all their strengths, finding new strengths and weaknesses within themselves, and whatever else Ms Beyer brings to the table.

Essentially, you are demanding to know the outcome of a story arc that hasn't even been completed by the author yet, refusing to even get involved with it, just in case the eventual resolution might not meet with your approval.

Trust a professional author to tell the best story she can, in the way she wants to tell it.

Are we going to get more voyager books after these two are out? I have to wonder. With the main character offed off and the others being sucked into the other series. I wonder after this jaunt of Voy back in the DQ is done we will be left with zilch!

I highly doubt the "jaunt" back to the DQ will only take one book to explore, especially since they're sending an entire fleet.

Maybe you should just read it and avoid getting your Starfleet-issue panties in a twist about things that haven't even been written yet.

 

[MilitantJaneway]

Here's an idea! Read the book, enjoy Kirsten Beyer's writing, follow the storyline through the next few books, and see if Janeway ever returns. Meanwhile, enjoy learning about how the characters will cope with their loss, showing all their strengths, finding new strengths and weaknesses within themselves, and whatever else Ms Beyer brings to the table.

Essentially, you are demanding to know the outcome of a story arc that hasn't even been completed by the author yet, refusing to even get involved with it, just in case the eventual resolution might not meet with your approval.

Trust a professional author to tell the best story she can, in the way she wants to tell it.

Are we going to get more voyager books after these two are out? I have to wonder. With the main character offed off and the others being sucked into the other series. I wonder after this jaunt of Voy back in the DQ is done we will be left with zilch!

I highly doubt the "jaunt" back to the DQ will only take one book to explore, especially since they're sending an entire fleet.

Maybe you should just read it and avoid getting your Starfleet-issue panties in a twist about things that haven't even been written yet.

That is extremely rude and very inappropriate!

 

[Therin of Andor]

Are we going to get more voyager books after these two are out?

No, Pocket Books will just let their VOY license lapse.

What do you think? The same rules apply, of course. If the books sell well, they'll continue.

Kirsten Beyer has confirmed that everyone's in "Full Circle" and Janeway doesn't even die till halfway through. Then the ship is off on a grand, long-term adventure, which continues in at least one more book. Tuvok presumably stays with Titan, but nothing's been said that no one else will be appearing in future VOY fiction. Maybe there'll be scenes with Janeway and the Q?

But again, you are demanding to know the ending before the ending has even been written.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That is extremely rude I suggest you shut up now!

PS. Oh dear. Do I have to shut up too?

PPS. Ah, I see you tempered your response to the OP while I was typing...

 

[MilitantJaneway]

That is extremely rude I suggest you shut up now!

PS. Oh dear. Do I have to shut up too?

PPS. Ah, I see you tempered your response to the OP while I was typing...

I did because I am not ill mannered, unlike square up there

 

[Trent Roman]

We get that they're grieving. Kirsten Beyer's upcoming book will specifically address the grieving of Janeway's onscreen friends, and maybe Janeway's actual fans can pick up some coping skills by reading the novel, and seeing how Chakotay et al are managing their situation?

Apparently 'poorly', since Chakotay is still eating his heart out going into Unworthy. Apropos of nothing, I personally hope the grieving scenes are kept to a minimum, best handled 'off-screen' as it were. Going through the real thing is heart-wrenching, but I've rarely seen it done well in media--usually it just comes off as transparent emotional blackmail or, worse yet, just plain dull. That said, I must admit that watching Coetzee sustain his protagonist's almost-wild grief over two hundred pages in The Master of St. Petersburg was damn impressive.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Therin of Andor]

usually it just comes off as transparent emotional blackmail or, worse yet, just plain dull.

I'm sure that's not Kirsten Beyer's intention. Those who've read it aren't complaining that "Full Circle" is "dull".

 

[Trent Roman]

^ Well, no, I imagine nobody sits around a room and says "This is a very emotional scene, so let's make it really trite and boring as all hell." Grief is one of those things that's really hard to artificially duplicate.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[brcarthey]

i don't know if this was discussed in the other "janeway is dead" threads, but after 17 of posts i'm surprised no one has mentioned (maybe again) that one could look at janeway's death as karmic fate. she subverted the natural order of life by going back in time to rescue seven, chakotay and tuvok. in cheating seven's and chakotay's death, it is inevitable that karmic retribution would be in janeway's future thus hastening her death. thus, giving her death an even more heroic meaning since her actions would eventually lead to a hastened end to her life.

 

[Trent Roman]

^ Even assuming such a notion as 'karma', the Janeway who went back in time is not the same person as the Janeway who died at the hands of the Borg. That Janeway already died using herself as a Trojan horse during the attack on the transwarp hub; if there are any 'karmic bills' to be paid, life has already been spent.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Lynx]

Here's what I can tell you about the process by the time it gets to the writer. An editor says, "We need a new story." They might or might not also add things like, "By the end of the story x, y and z need to have happened to set up this other story or to tie in with something previously established." We are then asked to provide the editor with an outline of the best possible story we can that honors the specific requirements they made of us.

That's it. Really, honest to God, there has been no discussion, at least for me in the few times I've done this, about doing or not doing something because of fan reaction. I may have worried or wondered about it in my secret heart of hearts because even though I am a writer, before I was that, I was a fan and that fan still lives in me and from time to time offers suggestions. And maybe this is something the editors talk about amongst themselves before they even approach an author.

Point is, by the time it gets to me, the author, my only job is to look at the given circumstances and tell the best possible story I can. How people are going to react to it doesn't get a vote when crafting the story because there is ultimately no way to know. We can make an educated guess...but that kind of thinking just takes too much time away from all the time we need to spend figuring out the damn story.

And for what it's worth, I come to these boards because it is fun to interact directly with people who love these stories and these people as much as I do. That's been hard to do over the last several months for a variety of reasons and lately I'm just trying to correct as many outright factual errors as I can in the interest of not allowing them to get blown evern more out of proportion. And granted, I don't read all the threads, but by my count Margaret has been here once since December to correct one factual error herself.

First of all, I would really like to give you, Kirsten Beyer all credit for coming here and interact with us fans. This is something I really appreciate even if I do disagree with some of your opinions regarding this issue.

And yes, I do consider you an excellent author as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression from your post that the decision to kill off Janeway was made by the editor and that you and some authors decided to get along with it. Am I correct?

What I'm interested about here is how much impact the editors have on the ongoing Voyager saga in this case. I mean, if I was a writer, I wouldn't be that happy if the editors demanded a new direction for my characters if that direction was too different from what I would like to do and write about.

I don't want to speak for them, but yes, I'm sure the editorial staff knew that killing Janeway was going to upset some fans. That's not a huge leap of logic. But when you say things like "this anger is an intentional effect" to me it kind of feeds the absolutely false sense some have that the editors were sitting around asking themsleves...what's the best way to piss off this fan group? Intentional maybe in the sense that anyone with a brain could have seen it coming. But certainly not intentional in the sense that anyone wanted to anger people. The intention was to tell the best possible story we could. Fan anger in this case is an unavoidable consequence, given the creative direction chosen.

Yes, but they must have been aware of the fact that many fans would be angry and upset over it and in this case the line between intentional damage and not is very thin.

It's like "Now I'm gonna smash Mr Brown's window with a baseball, just to really p*** that old geek off"

or

"I would really like to smash Mr Brown's window with a baseball just to see the effect and hear the window crash but I know that Mr Brown will be very upset and angry so should I do it or not?"

What we do know that the result in both cases will be that the window is broken and Mr Brown will be upset and angry.

I must also once again state that I do find the killing off of Janeway a very destructive move. Wouldn't it have been better and more constructive to sit down and figure out a good story about her instead, such as "OK, making Janeway an admiral did actually paint her into a corner so what can we do to get this great character back into the action again? Why not try this........."

That would have been more constructive, as I see it because we would have gotten more action and more adventures for Janeway, the Janeway fans would have been happy and continued to buy the books and who knows, it may have attracted those Janeway fans who normally don't buy the books as well.

 

[Lynx]

Here's an idea! Read the book, enjoy Kirsten Beyer's writing, follow the storyline through the next few books, and see if Janeway ever returns. Meanwhile, enjoy learning about how the characters will cope with their loss, showing all their strengths, finding new strengths and weaknesses within themselves, and whatever else Ms Beyer brings to the table.

Essentially, you are demanding to know the outcome of a story arc that hasn't even been completed by the author yet, refusing to even get involved with it, just in case the eventual resolution might not meet with your approval.

Trust a professional author to tell the best story she can, in the way she wants to tell it.

A nice suggestion actually but I won't do it.

It's a matter of principles. When Kes was destroyed in "Fury", I did quit watching definitely, there and then. (OK, I did quit watching when Kes was kicked out in "The Gift" but changed my mind two years later and borrowed the video tapes with the episodes I had missed. But "Fury" was the definite end.)

It's the same here. I'm very dissatisfied with the way Janeway has been treated and I have no intention to support the current direction of the Star Trek books and I'm not interested in reading about the crew walloping in its grief over what has happened to Janeway.

Mind you, if they had brought back Kes in season 7 and undone the damage made to the character in Fury", I would have changed my mind and started watching the show again and I would probably have bought or borrowed the tapes or DVD:s with the episodes I'd missed. If Janeway returns, I would probably start buying books again.