police murder man in my town protests and demonstrations

[Chaos Descending]

Whether ya'll believe me or not, and no offense to you guys, but I'll take the word of DI I know personally than some random bloke on the internet.

Your prerogative, of course, but I figured you'd prefer to have facts instead of silly made-up Hollywood nonsense.

There isn't a tactical profession in the entire world (and that includes SWAT, Special Forces, Spetnaz, SAS, MOSSAD, Navy SEALs, the CIA, Municipal Police Forces, etc.) that is trained to "shoot to disable" with a handgun.

I'm sorry, friend, that's 100% Hollywood fiction.

 

[clint g]

I know a guy who hasnt fired his service weapon in roughly 20 years. Firing range, yes. But never in the line duty.

This describes most all police officers in the united states. A fire arm is a tool only used to kill. As such, most cops never pull the trigger against another person. It's only done if their life is on the line.

 

[Miss Chicken]

I know a guy who hasnt fired his service weapon in roughly 20 years. Firing range, yes. But never in the line duty.

This describes most all police officers in the united states. A fire arm is a tool only used to kill. As such, most cops never pull the trigger against another person. It's only done if their life is on the line.

Tell that to the family of the guy who was shot dead by police because he was sitting on his friend's porch playing with a hose nozzle.

http://losangelescriminallegalblog....t-douglas-zerby-for-holding-water-nozzle.html

 

[Chaos Descending]

Is he "most" cops?

 

[Miss Chicken]

Maybe not most cops but there certainly seems to be a strong relunctance with punishing cops who don't follow procedure which is a problem with the police force as a whole. Instead all too often when a policeman makes a mistake other officers and police chiefs etc will try to either cover the mistake or else to put the guilt back onto the victim even when they know the victim is innocent.

I don't believe anyone is going to face criminal prosecution over the Douglas Zerby case despite the fact that the officers didn't follow procedure. It doesn't seem that many of their fellow police officers have a problem with this.

I hope the family end up with a huge payout in the civil 'wrongful death' case.

 

[Chaos Descending]

I've read a few more articles since you posted that link, and some have more details.

For example, someone called police and reported that Douglas Zerby was outside with a handgun, so the cops on arrival expected for there to be a gun.

Second, the cops who spent 5 to 10 minutes observing him from a little distance never got a good look at what he was carrying as he had his back to the officers most of the time.

Lastly, Douglas Zerby put both of his hands together and raised them up in front of himself as if he were drawing a gun with intent to harm. It didn't help that he did it DIRECTLY TOWARDS some observing police officers, who took it as an "Oh Fuck, he is about to shoot" moment. When someone raises a gun towards an officer in what looks like an immediate attempt to shoot, officers do not have to waste time issuing a warning before they open fire.

I have a feeling it will be spun this way.

Why they never challenged him during the 5 to 10 minutes they were watching him, I couldn't speculate.

 

[clint g]

Maybe not most cops but there certainly seems to be a strong relunctance with punishing cops who don't follow procedure which is a problem with the police force as a whole.

I most certainly would say it to that persons family. Just because he was shot by police officers doesn't mean most police officers fire their guns. If I said cops never fire their guns then maybe you may have some sort of argument.

 

[Miss Chicken]

If the cops didn't get a look at what his was carrying then they should have been extra careful. They should not have expected him to have a gun just because someone reported that he was holding what might be a gun.

It also doesn't explain why they choose to handcuff a critically injured man who they had shot several times and whose non- weapon by that stage could have been clearly identifiable as a hose nozzle. It also doesn't explain why they didn't come and admit much sooner that a) they never challenged him b) that he in all likelihood had no idea the police were around and c) he did nothing illegal and his actions were in no way threatening but was totally innocent behaviour that was seriously misinterpreted.

Mr Zerby was 0% responsible for his own death.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Maybe not most cops but there certainly seems to be a strong relunctance with punishing cops who don't follow procedure which is a problem with the police force as a whole.

I most certainly would say it to that persons family. Just because he was shot by police officers doesn't mean most police officers fire their guns. If I said cops never fire their guns then maybe you may have some sort of argument.

The point I was trying to make was aimed more at the statement that "it was only done if their life was on the line".

In Mr Zerby's cae their lives were never on the line. They probably wrongly though that their life was on the line but if they had followed proper procedures than they might not have ended up thinking that. Mr Zerby actually did nothing that was threatening, the police were totally at fault for misinterpreting a man's innocent actions. To me this suggests that the officers concerned had improper training or had reacting wrongly to the situation despite their training.

 

[mtblillie]

Everyone wants to look at these situations in black and white, look, it is NEVER THAT SIMPLE. You weren't there, you don't know what it is like to be in that situation, so stop trying to turn this into something its not. Yes, it sucks that an unarmed person was shot by the police. HOW DO YOU THINK THE COPS FELT WHEN THEY ARE SCARED SHITLESS THINKING SOMEONE IS ABOUT TO KILL THEM AND THEN FINDS OUT THE PERSON IS UNARMED. Its a shitty situation, it doesnt mean they went in guns blazing and have no concern over murdering people, if you feel your life is being threatened chances are you would pull the trigger too.

 

[think]

enough said about the act but looking at the place it happened it is one of the 'bad' parts of my town. Me and two friends drove there, to handy and troop, to buy pot and were punched in the head because we did not want the crack they were selling we just wanted pot.

I have not heard much since about this cept they shot seven bullets out a gun in my neighborhood maybe, on my corner late - late the other night. So we are taking the streets back, but what is the price really>? admittedly,.. it is not like they are doing here (5 severed heads outside school) but my town/city is trying ..

 

[Miss Chicken]

Everyone wants to look at these situations in black and white, look, it is NEVER THAT SIMPLE. You weren't there, you don't know what it is like to be in that situation, so stop trying to turn this into something its not. Yes, it sucks that an unarmed person was shot by the police. HOW DO YOU THINK THE COPS FELT WHEN THEY ARE SCARED SHITLESS THINKING SOMEONE IS ABOUT TO KILL THEM AND THEN FINDS OUT THE PERSON IS UNARMED. Its a shitty situation, it doesnt mean they went in guns blazing and have no concern over murdering people, if you feel your life is being threatened chances are you would pull the trigger too.

An innocent person being shot and killed is as serious failure of the system as an innocent being executed.

Police choose to go into an occupation that has its hazards. The innocent person killed by police had no choice at all.

If a doctor's negligence causes death he can face charges and that goes for most other occupations too. It seems that if a policeman kills someone while disregarding proper procedure many people's attitude is "tough luck".

I am sure that the majority of policemen could have handled the Zerby case batter than the two policemen did. Their poor treatment of the situation, especially their failure to follow proper procedure, means that they should not be policemen. Their mistakes were made before Zerby ever innocently raised his arms.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Can you produce the procedure, so we can see if they followed it or not?

 

[Miss Chicken]

According to the wrongful death law suit

1) failure to identify themselves
2) failure to order him to drop the weapon

The police had several minutes in which they could have done either of these.

I believe the law suit also covers the fact that a dying Mr Zerby was handcuffed even though the police would have known at that stage that the 'weapon' was a hose nozzle.

The family have also said that the police made no effort to identify Mr Zerby even though the majority of the neighbours knew him and would have told the police that Mr Zerby was harmless.

 

[clint g]

Often times its standard [procedure to handcuff someone once you shoot them. It's entirely possible that they were in the zone and just didn't get that the didn't have a gun on them.

Also, many departments have a policy where IDing one self and ordering to drop a firearm is to be done IF possible and IF it can be done without getting shot. Seems like the police were trying to ID the person to see if the person they were looking at was the suspect in question. After all, it would be stupid to flat our approach the guy if he has a firearm. While doing this, the suspect apparently saw them and pointed something at them, at which time they thought they going to be shot at

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ding-GARDEN-HOSE-nozzle-gun-chief-admits.html

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/douglas-zerby/

EDIT This article provides more details that correspond with what I figured happened. I should also add that cops are trained to NOT handle shooters until they have overwhelming support. The article states they called for backup while they tried to contain him. He then POINTED what was believed to be a firearm at the cops. The cops did everything they could to survive.

here is an except from the article explaining the wait before IDing themselves

The officers had a position of cover and were observing the suspect while other officers were en route," said Sgt. Dina Zapalski, a spokeswoman for the Long Beach Police Department.

This is something almost all officers are trained to do.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Mr Zerby had not fired a shot, had made no threats to anyone and the police hadn't even been able to determine if he did in fact have a gun in his hand. There is something seriously wrong with a man being shot under these circumstances and it shows that something went seriously wrong with the system on that day and those faults need to be rectified.

Also there is no evidence that Zerby ever saw them, the Police Chief said as much. According to the coroner Mr Zerby was sitting down with both his feet on the floor when he was shot which I doubt is a position that someone aiming at police would take.

 

[clint g]

Mr Zerby had not fired a shot

By the time the suspect fires a shot, you're dead and going home in a body bag

, had made no threats to anyone and the police hadn't even been able to determine if he did in fact have a gun in his hand.

They had calls that a man had a fire arm. They encircled him, trying to hide from his view. They were observing waiting for backup.

The man then took a firearm-like object and pointed it at them. Think about it. A person, who you were told had a gun, is acting drunk. He then takes what looks like a gun and points it at you. You have two options at that point. Shoot him or die. That's it. You're monday morning quarterbacking. Put yourself in the minds of those cops. They saw a man pointing a "gun" at them. Only a fool would wait for the suspect to pull the trigger to find out for sure.

There is something seriously wrong with a man being shot under these circumstances and it shows that something went seriously wrong with the system on that day and those faults need to be rectified.

It's unfortunate that it happened, but the officers were acting along the lines of their training and common sense. When a person might have a gun, you don't have many second chances.

Also there is no evidence that Zerby ever saw them, the Police Chief said as much. According to the coroner Mr Zerby was sitting down with both his feet on the floor when he was shot which I doubt is a position that someone aiming at police would take.

From the LA times

Zapalski said Zerby was in a seated position when he extended his arms while holding the gun-like object and pointed it at an officer.

Emphasis on the POINTED IT AT AN OFFICER

EDIT: it should also be noted that it wasn't just a garden hose. It was a garden hose that certainly looks like a gun.
http://www.longbeach.gov/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=29544

It's not hard to imagine a cop seeing that staring him in the face and thinking he was about to be shot.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Zapalski is not the police chief, she is a police spokesperson and her statement was made before any adequate investigation was made.

At a press conference, two months after the shooting and after the coroner had made his report, Police Chief Mcdonnell said

We will never know what Mr. Zerby was thinking, what he saw or what his intentions were. We don't know, and we'll never be able to know."

 

[clint g]

Says who? You? You have yet to provide any evidence to the contrary. I provided multiple links that contradict what you state and that go into detail as to what happened. You posted one bare bones article that in no way contradicts the ones I posted.

Since the words of the official spokeswoman for the department arent good enough ( )

Here are the words from the Chief's mouth

McDonnell attempted to explain why officers did not speak with Zerby.

"The officers did not immediately contact the subject so that they could set up containment in the area," he said, "Fearing that if the subject walked out of the location with the gun, citizens and officers could be in harm's way."

McDonnell estimated that officers were on scene for about ten or fifteen minutes before the shooting occurred. He said that officers wanted to establish communication with the suspect.

"Unfortunately, due to the actions of Mr. Zerby, it never got to that point," he said.

The unfortunate actions being this

McDonnell said that Zerby extended his arms, holding the metal water nozzle, and two officers shot him. Zerby was pronounced deceased at the scene.

Again, from the Chief's mouth

http://www.lbpost.com/news/ryan/10795

 

[Miss Chicken]

The statements you quote all seem to have been made witgin days of the shooting before any investigation had been made.

My statment came from the press conference held three months after the shooting and after the coroner's report had been released.

[yt]http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=AU#/watch?v=yu_EqPa5lyg[/yt]

Mr Zerby has 0% responsibility for his own death. He did not have a weapon, he didn't threatened anyone, he didn't break the law.

MR Zerby died because other people misinterpreted his innocent actions and measures must be taken to ensure that such things don't happen again and to ensure that justice is served in Mr Zerby's case. Blaming Mr Zerby in any way for his own death is far from justice being served.