Plot holes

[commodore64]

A poster brought up the idea that there's a plot hole in Andorian Incident, indicating when they were hostages the Enterprise could've just beamed them up.

I think there are some big plot holes in other episodes and wonder if you, do, too. And which ones?

 

[miriel68]

Hi commodore, that's a nice thought to open this thread .

May be we can look at "Andorian Incident" first? As I said, I like it very much, especially Shran with his antennas . The pacing is very good, acting idem, characters development, final twist, many nice little moments (like offended T'Pol taking all the blanket she didn't want earlier).
But:
1. Instead of beaming down an assault party wouldn't it have been easier just to beam up Archer, Tucker and T'Pol?

2. Archer exposing himself to a second beating in order to throw an
artefact through the hole in divinities mask - the scene is amusing, but wouldn't it be far more simple to have a careful glance from inside?

I could add that trying to knock down an Andorian wasn't a very smart move, either - it would be probably better to pretend they didn't notice, go back to Enterprise and try to figure out what's happening then - but this is just a consideration, not what I call a "plot hole". The frist point certainly quilify as such IMO and some explanation should have been provided in order to save internal logic.

 

[pookha]

they couldnt beam up trip tpol jon and all the vulcan monks.
the transporter couldnt handle that many people.
remember the transporter is noisey..
(why malcolm and his team beamed in were they did and not admist the hostages)
so if they beamed some of the people up who knows how the andorians would have reacted to that.

so there was no way archer , tpol or trip would have taken the easy way out and left the vulcan monks to suffer the consequences of their leaving so suddenly.

so not a plot hole but rather thinking through the consequences of an action.

now for a plot hole mauraders.
since nothing was done to set up an orbital warning system for the miners in mauraders there was nothing to prevent the klingons from bombing them from space.
a much better story would have evolved around archer contacting all the species dependent on the miners and putting together group that would band together to help set up an orbital defense system and to make sure the klingons knew there would be consequnnces if something happened to the miners.

it was bad plan by archer and even worse that tpol with having more space experience didnt point out the flaw.

 

[bluedana]

I agree with your assessment on both counts, pookha. If Archer, Trip, and T'Pol had suddenly disappeared, the (paranoid and easily provoked) Andorians would surely have assumed the worst and killed the monks. Plus, for all the Ent crew knew, the monks' lives were in danger anyway. Even though they raided P'Jem periodically looking for stuff, this time, when they encountered this unknown element (the Ent crew), they think there's a conspiracy. No way the monks survive that.

Marauders should have followed the plot of A Bug's Life (which has the exact same plot, only microscopic) faithfully all the way to the end and destroyed the rogue Klingons completely.

Maybe it's my faulty (read: non-existent) understanding of physics, but I don't get why the ship couldn't just go under the storm in "Catwalk". It looked like a pretty narrow cloud to me. (Unlike Doctor's Orders, where they said going around would take too long.)

 

[Timo]

If the "Catwalk" cloud was indeed moving faster than the ship's top speed, then any imagery showing the cloud plus empty space around it would be proof that the cloud was ginormous. That's the only way a warp 5 object could look near-stationary to the camera - it would be immensely distant and immensely large.

As for "Marauders", I'd think the heroes succeeded without realizing why: they embarrassed the Klingons, causing them to flee for psychological reasons the humans couldn't truly fathom. The ending might have been better if it emphasized Archer's confusion about how they had succeeded in the impossible, while us Trek veterans chuckled under our graying beards and thought "You'll yet learn, kid, that's classic Klingon for ya!"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[gblews]

they couldnt beam up trip tpol jon and all the vulcan monks.
the transporter couldnt handle that many people.
remember the transporter is noisey..
(why malcolm and his team beamed in were they did and not admist the hostages)
so if they beamed some of the people up who knows how the andorians would have reacted to that.

so there was no way archer , tpol or trip would have taken the easy way out and left the vulcan monks to suffer the consequences of their leaving so suddenly.

This is as plausible and explantion as any, but I forget; was this stated or implied at some point in the episode? If it wasn't then it would appear to be a "plot hole", not a real big one, and easily explained, but a hole nonetheless.

For people who were familiar with the transporter, but unfamiliar with it's limitations, a quick like of dialogue would have closed this hole.

 

[commodore64]

I loved Andorian Incident -- a lot -- but I gotta agree with gblews and muriel. The Andorians did see Reed and company beam in, but it took them a bit to respond. I would think they may've been able to beam everyone up in the amount of time it took them to recognize the signal and then transport. And as GB said, if they don't explain it away, it's a plot hole.

Mauraders. That was really stinky and probably is one giant plot hole/waste of celuloid.

I know I've brought this up, but I really thought the plot for Demons/Terra Prime was weak: The organization Terra Prime wanted to create a human/Vulcan hybrid and disgrace the world, as well as show it wasn't viable, but ... no one was really disgraced and the baby was extra cute. More over, no one really went in disguise despite even Soong realizing the top three folks on Enterprise were famous. (And he's in a jail cell, fairly cut off from the world.) Their fame caused them to be captured quickly. You'd think they'd at least pull the wool cap thing for T'Pol ... like they did for Spock or even Mestral (Carbon Creek).

 

[pookha]

count the number of men in malcolms party.
and then count the monks plus the three.
there were too many people to beam up one time.

 

[TeutonicNights]

What was a bitt silly imo is that the Vulcans had that huge secret spy array in their cellar, but
- They can't detect the Andorians in orbit?
- They use a freaking curtain to camouflage it?
- Although you see those spy guys in the background (as Archer enters), no one there seems to care about a bunch of Andorians and humans entering through their covert door.
they probably were afraid to step out of their CGI matte and be Cyrus Redblock'd out of existence

But I believe the worst episode when it comes to plotholes is the glorious "Shockwave".

 

[commodore64]

count the number of men in malcolms party.
and then count the monks plus the three.
there were too many people to beam up one time.

We can count. Thanks. A few things: we don't know how many can be transported on ENT. And nor do we know how long it takes to transport them. (GBlews point.) Dialog would've explained it away, but to our knowledge it was not addressed. Ergo, your thoughts are intriguing, thoughts -- which means there's still a plot hole.

TeutonicNights - good points.

 

[Dane_Whitman]

"Marauders" is the worst offender, I think.

As was mentioned in this thread the Klingons could have destroyed the colonists from orbit.

They also could have re-materialised somewhere close after they transported away from the colonists boobytrap, and finished off everyone.

Five minutes after Enterprise left orbit they could have returned to the colony. "Next time... we'll be ready!", said the leader dude. Yeah, we'll see how ready you are when we beam straight into town and start slaughtering.

 

[Timo]

I can't really accept the idea that something not explained in the episode = plot hole. They didn't explain how Archer got to the planet in the first place - some in the audience might not know about starships and warp drives, but the writers didn't explain to us that Archer arrived in a starship equipped with warp drive. It still can't be a plot hole.

Certain limitations of the transporter are well known and established in the other Trek shows. Others are specific to ENT. Details may be unclear, but the basic premise of ENT is that the transporter is risky in the 2150s. If you want to rescue your Captain, you don't put him through the transporter which is just as likely to kill him as to rescue him. You put expendable personnel through the transporter to secure the Captain's return to his shuttlecraft. If Reed and his two goons get killed in beamdown, the sidekicks try again some other way. If Archer gets killed in beamup, that's it, end of the show.

They can't detect the Andorians in orbit?

Who says they couldn't?

...Which "they" do you mean?

The Vulcans no doubt saw the Andorians coming. They were simply helpless to do anything about it, except send out the monks, go deeper into hiding, and hope the Andorians go away. But the Andorians wouldn't have made it easy for the Vulcans: they'd have used every countermeasure in their arsenal to retain the element of surprise. And what hope does a primitive Earthship stand in penetrating those countermeasures?

Five minutes after Enterprise left orbit they could have returned to the colony. "Next time... we'll be ready!", said the leader dude. Yeah, we'll see how ready you are when we beam straight into town and start slaughtering.

Nothing wrong with the colonists being unrealistic about their chances. And nothing wrong with the idea that the Klingons were temporarily so embarrassed that they went into sulking, then returned a few weeks later and killed everybody. That's all compatible with what we saw in the episode.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[commodore64]

They didn't explain how Archer got to the planet in the first place - some in the audience might not know about starships and warp drives, but the writers didn't explain to us that Archer arrived in a starship equipped with warp drive. It still can't be a plot hole.

We've seen Archer and others get to planets before with and without the transporter.

Seems like some of the ideas above have no technobabble or explanation and yet push the "willing suspension of disbelief." I think that's probably the difference.

 

[JiNX-01]

What was a bitt silly imo is that the Vulcans had that huge secret spy array in their cellar, but
- They can't detect the Andorians in orbit?

They may very well have detected the Andorians. The monks told Archer that the Andorians stop by every once in a while to search the monastery. If the Vulcans had acted on detection of the Andorians it would have confirmed their suspicions.

- They use a freaking curtain to camouflage it?

Anything more sophisticated would have drawn attention. The true plot hole here is the lack of an effective lock. Archer would have had more trouble getting into my house!

- Although you see those spy guys in the background (as Archer enters), no one there seems to care about a bunch of Andorians and humans entering through their covert door. they probably were afraid to step out of their CGI matte and be Cyrus Redblock'd out of existence

The CGIs all looked occupied to me. And the "intruders" weren't exactly making alot of racket. And the spy station was believed to be well-hidden.

But I believe the worst episode when it comes to plotholes is the glorious "Shockwave".

Specifics, please. (I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like to see details).

 

[TeutonicNights]

Anything more sophisticated would have drawn attention. The true plot hole here is the lack of an effective lock. Archer would have had more trouble getting into my house!

Yeah, but what exactly was the curtain for? The Monks were all informed anyway and any intruder looking for the array wouldn't be fooled by the ridiculous curtain (and an unlocked door). To get to the cellar, the Monks had some well- hidden secret door, but here they have that huge round door that just screams "This is the super secret door you guys are looking for!"

The CGIs all looked occupied to me. And the "intruders" weren't exactly making alot of racket. And the spy station was believed to be well-hidden.

but with their big spy array, shouldn't they be aware fof anything that's going on outside?
And even if the array is not equipped for that, given that they absolutely NEED to keep the secret and they obviously made big efforts to keep the array hidden, wouldn't they have security systems, monitors etc. to keep them informed- especially if they know the Andorians are around?


It's not a big deal of course, but that ending seemed terribly rushed somehow, after seeing an episode with lots of filler (Archer getting punched in the face), this was a bit of a joke.

Specifics, please. (I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like to see details).

Alright I will watch it again this week.

 

[miriel68]

Many interesting points made
Ok, so the "humanitary" explanation about not beaming them up seems plausible to me, even if I don't see Reed having such consideration for the monks. Archer, T'Pol - yes, sure, but they couldn't communicate with Enterprise. Thinking about it: why didn't they try to beam down a communicator, like in "Detained"?
I still think Archer getting the second beating in order to throw confirm their suspictions about the holes Trip saw in catacombs was plainly stupid, though
But thinking more about the episodes, there other holes - not "plot holes", but rather "story holes".

What was a bitt silly imo is that the Vulcans had that huge secret spy array in their cellar, but
- They can't detect the Andorians in orbit?

They may very well have detected the Andorians. The monks told Archer that the Andorians stop by every once in a while to search the monastery. If the Vulcans had acted on detection of the Andorians it would have confirmed their suspicions.

A huge sensor array hidden below a monastery (how many people are working there, btw?) with just ONE entrance hidden behind a curtain? Sorry, I cannot buy it. And all those people were just continuing their work unperturbated, while monks had been taken hostage and almost killed? I can understand they didn't react at once, because they probably hoped Andorians would be gone after yet another inutile raid, but when the situation got critical, they still made no attempt to help prisoners?

Still, for all its faults, Andorian Incident is one of my favourites.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

I still think Archer getting the second beating in order to throw confirm their suspictions about the holes Trip saw in catacombs was plainly stupid, though

I thought that at first too, but I've come to the conclusion that the beating was taken not only to throw the rock down the hole and confirm their suspicions but as a distraction to stop the Andorians from looking at their sensors and noticing Trip's biosign on the other side of the rock wall, which they very well might have done had he just sneaked up to look by himself.

 

[Timo]

A huge sensor array hidden below a monastery (how many people are working there, btw?) with just ONE entrance hidden behind a curtain? Sorry, I cannot buy it. And all those people were just continuing their work unperturbated, while monks had been taken hostage and almost killed?

Oh, I think it obvious what's going on here. The Vulcans behind the curtains, having observed the Andorian invasion, have quickly put together a holosimulation of a listening outpost, and placed it on a projector at the entrance to the secret part of the monastery. It's a bit crude, not particularly interactive, but still enough to fool the Andorians into thinking that there is a listening outpost there.

That way, nobody will discover the real secret, which is (press the buttons on your remote control now)

1) a base for launching weapons of mass destruction
2) two green octopi pulling the strings of the Vulcan puppets
3) a Romulan listening post
4) the head of Surak in a clay jar

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TeutonicNights]

 

[miriel68]

I still think Archer getting the second beating in order to throw confirm their suspictions about the holes Trip saw in catacombs was plainly stupid, though

I thought that at first too, but I've come to the conclusion that the beating was taken not only to throw the rock down the hole and confirm their suspicions but as a distraction to stop the Andorians from looking at their sensors and noticing Trip's biosign on the other side of the rock wall, which they very well might have done had he just sneaked up to look by himself.

This is a nice explanation. You convinced me almost... What about Trip's first visit in catacombs, then? And what about biosigns of the people who worked in the secret facility (ok, so may be it was shielded somehow).

Timo: