Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episode

[gastrof]

Since when has downloading a program to another computer meant it disappears from yours?

They should have been able to send the Doctor's program to the Prometheus without having him disappear from Voyager. (Same thing when they traveled back to the 1990s and the Bill Gates type guy swiped half of Voyager's computer files, including the Doctor.)

It makes no sense for them to say "The program was downloaded....it's gone" or "If we send you, Doctor, we may lose you."

Only data would be sent, and Voyager's computer should have still had the program...meaning they'd still have the Doctor. (I suppose you could argue the Gates-type guy was being nasty and erased Voyager's files as he took the programs, but in "Message..." it's a very different situation. Voyager willingly made the transmission. WHY did he then vanish from Voyager's computer?

Only a copy/clone of the Doctor should have arrived on the Prometheus. It shouldn't have been the only one of him.

Comments?

 

[Akiraprise]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

You're right. But the writer's had to give the Doctor a vulnerability. Otherwise he becomes almost Q like. Never gets hurt, never in danger, very smart, etc. Hell, why bother sending the crew to hostile ships or planets, just copy the Doc and send a few of him. Or if Voyager gets boarded don't put the actual crew's lives in danger, send the doctor commando teams.

I don't think that TPTB realized right away what they actually created. So they had to arbitrarily give him some weaknesses, even if they don't make sense by todays computer standards.

 

[gastrof]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

I very much appreciate the reply and support, but to be honest, I'd sort of hoped someone would say to me

"You ninny! He disappeared from Voyager's computer because...."

and went on to give a "Trekker's fix-it syndrome" or "Treknology" type answer that'd have the onscreen events make sense.

 

[Akiraprise]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo


I'm not the kind of Trekkie that rationalizes away stupid onscreen things.

 

[bryce]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

Wasn't there an episode where a back-up of the Doc *did* get left behind, and revived centuries later???

(And the thing that bugged me about *THAT* episode, was why hadn't the Federation made it to the Delta Quad by that time period???)

 

[exodus]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

bryce said:

Wasn't there an episode where a back-up of the Doc *did* get left behind, and revived centuries later???

(And the thing that bugged me about *THAT* episode, was why hadn't the Federation made it to the Delta Quad by that time period???)

Dude, space is HUGE!!!!

Starfleet hasn't even charted all the Alpha Quaderant yet. With the Romulan Empire defunkt, we now can enter the Beta Quaderant. As well as having some access to the Gamma Quad.

That's allot of space to explore before even entering the Delta. Which I have to say is why I think it's a bad idea for Trek to keep doing prequels when you have that much new material to write stories around. Especially when you consider the fact there has to be other species in the Beta Q. besides the Romulans.

So that's my story and I'm stinkin' to it.

 

[McCoy]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

Akiraprise said:

I'm not the kind of Trekkie that rationalizes away stupid onscreen things.

Then you're NOT a Trekkie.

 

[WalkinMan]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

Anyhow, fact is there was a backup module with second copy of the program, which was the Doctor in "Living Witness."

Maybe there was some sentient holography bit where they couldn't just "clone" the Doctor's consciousness or something, but clearly a double existed in "Living Witness."

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

I always took it as in the download of the data from Starlings computers that they were deleting the files as they went.

 

[bryce]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

exodus said:

bryce said:

Wasn't there an episode where a back-up of the Doc *did* get left behind, and revived centuries later???

(And the thing that bugged me about *THAT* episode, was why hadn't the Federation made it to the Delta Quad by that time period???)

Dude, space is HUGE!!!!

Starfleet hasn't even charted all the Alpha Quaderant yet. With the Romulan Empire defunkt, we now can enter the Beta Quaderant. As well as having some access to the Gamma Quad.

That's allot of space to explore before even entering the Delta. Which I have to say is why I think it's a bad idea for Trek to keep doing prequels when you have that much new material to write stories around. Especially when you consider the fact there has to be other species in the Beta Q. besides the Romulans.

So that's my story and I'm stinkin' to it.

Actually, I know that IRL, space IS indeed huge, and so huge that the Federation could even have a large presence in the Delta Quad and still not have encountered this world.

But in the Trek-verse...things are smaller.

 

[od0_ital]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

WalkinMan said:
Anyhow, fact is there was a backup module with second copy of the program, which was the Doctor in "Living Witness."

Too bad Harry & Tom didn't know about that module in 'Message in a Bottle', could have saved both bridge officers some time, huh?

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

^ Who's to say that it hadn't already been taken in that episode? All we know is that it took place in Season 4, but there isn't a specific date listed.

 

[Bill Morris]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

The explanation was that his holomatrix could be sent but not copied. He later mentioned "risking my matrix," as you may recall. Maybe that's a single-use Microsoft license of some sort.

 

[Timo]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

Maybe there was some sentient holography bit where they couldn't just "clone" the Doctor's consciousness or something

This sounds eminently possible. Just because these people speak of "computers" and "programs" and "downloading" doesn't mean that they would be using the same sort of technology we have today. And it is perfectly reasonable to postulate that a complex program "dies" if it is turned off cold, or copied - that this dynamic entity only stays "alive" because it constantly processes, even in idle mode.

Future technology has never been "the same as now, only better". Innovations and advances have always come with a price. The price to be paid for advanced simulacra of sentient beings may be their uncopyability.

but clearly a double existed in "Living Witness."

Then again, "Living Witness" may have taken place a lot later than "Message in a Bottle". There is no stardate associated with the (past) events of that episode, and the only limiting factor there seems to be that Neelix is still on board. If not for that, we could even say that the copy of the EMH was abandoned on that planet several decades from "Message in a Bottle", in the alternate timeline where the ship did not find a shortcut home in "Endgame" but instead spent two decades getting to Earth the hard way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mvkemp]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

Timo said:
This sounds eminently possible. Just because these people speak of "computers" and "programs" and "downloading" doesn't mean that they would be using the same sort of technology we have today. And it is perfectly reasonable to postulate that a complex program "dies" if it is turned off cold, or copied - that this dynamic entity only stays "alive" because it constantly processes, even in idle mode.

Future technology has never been "the same as now, only better". Innovations and advances have always come with a price. The price to be paid for advanced simulacra of sentient beings may be their uncopyability.

But we know everyone here is an expert on future technology! We know how things work today so that must mean we know how things will work in the future.

Where's the complaining about how Data couldn't be copied, or even his personality etc be stored in the computer someplace in case of emergency so he's wouldn't be lost if something like being blown up happens? It's virtually an identical problem but TNG gets a free pass.

Then again, "Living Witness" may have taken place a lot later than "Message in a Bottle". There is no stardate associated with the (past) events of that episode, and the only limiting factor there seems to be that Neelix is still on board. If not for that, we could even say that the copy of the EMH was abandoned on that planet several decades from "Message in a Bottle", in the alternate timeline where the ship did not find a shortcut home in "Endgame" but instead spent two decades getting to Earth the hard way.

Timo Saloniemi

If it happened before Living Witness, it's easily explainable by saying the backup module hadn't been built yet. If it's after, then it was already stolen. We don't see every second of Voyager's day, why is it such a problem when something like this isn't around at the time?

 

[DarthTom]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

Akiraprise said:
You're right. But the writer's had to give the Doctor a vulnerability. Otherwise he becomes almost Q like. Never gets hurt, never in danger, very smart, etc. Hell, why bother sending the crew to hostile ships or planets, just copy the Doc and send a few of him. Or if Voyager gets boarded don't put the actual crew's lives in danger, send the doctor commando teams.

The transporters present the same logical problem if you think about it. It's canon that people can be duplicated. Why not simply send duplicates into hostile environments as well?

 

[scotthm]

gastrof said:
Since when has downloading a program to another computer meant it disappears from yours?
`
They should have been able to send the Doctor's program to the Prometheus without having him disappear from Voyager....
`
It makes no sense for them to say "The program was downloaded....it's gone" or "If we send you, Doctor, we may lose you."

It makes sense if you understand that they spent a great deal of time trying to 'humanize' what is essentially a computer program. If the doctor could be in multiple places at once it would have undermined a lot of effort into equating artificial 'life' with human life.

---------------

 

[Nebusj]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

mvkemp said:
Where's the complaining about how Data couldn't be copied, or even his personality etc be stored in the computer someplace in case of emergency so he's wouldn't be lost if something like being blown up happens? It's virtually an identical problem but TNG gets a free pass.

In point of fact, the one time the Enterprise gang did stop to back up their Data the production was roundly and solidly criticized.

While it may be within technological logic of the show to make it possible for characters to run off copies of some (if not all) of themselves, it really shoots the dramatic logic in the foot if the threat of death, dismemberment, and unpleasantness is nothing worse than accidentally closing a web browser tab before you were done reading the page. There's some interesting stories to be told with technology that lets you run off copies of yourself, but they really work against the action-adventure side of Trek.

 

[THIRTY OF FORTY]

Re: Plot hole in "Message in a Bottle" and the "1990s" episo

It had been said in the early seasons that the Doctor's program couldn't be backed up. It's a sophisticated program as you may imagine. That's what happened in "Message in a Bottle". However, in the events of "Living Witness" they obviously found a way to make a back up. It's not that complicated. Just use a little imagination.