Please help me with episode numbers

[gastrof]

I recently posted about replacing some of my lost Trek recordings, and asked opinions on buying either the original episodes (yep...the DVD sets are still out there) or TOS-R.

Well, I decided on the originals, but was a little surprised to find the episodes aren't in the same order as the original "two per disc" set.

The yellow, blue, and red "Tricorder" case sets actually have the episodes in BROADCAST order. (Big surprise to me, after seeing the earlier release in production order.)

I've considered making backup discs in broadcast order, which I prefer, but when checking a few websites to get the proper episode numbers again (even my old computer files were lost), I found that even www.startrek.com doesn't use the old 1-79 (or was it "80"?) numbering system any more.

Everywhere I look they're separated by seasons, whether the broadcast order or the production order are used.

Too confusing, especially when you try to put THE CAGE into the mix.

Does anyone have a copy of the old 1-79 (or 1-80) list? (Believe it was based on production order.)

Yeah, I know it'd be possible to do most of it by myself, since I do have the production order, but if memory serves there were some hiccups in the numbering where MENAGERIE was concerned. (Didn't at one point it get changed from being counted as two episodes to being two halves of the same episode?)

I know this may sound obsessive. Don't judge.

Just help me out here if you can. Thanks.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

Memory Alpha lists each Seaon's episodes in "Episode" order by default, but if you click on the little box in the "Original Airdate" Heading, it will list them in Original Airdate order. Simply click on one of the little boxes in one of the Headings and it will sort the list in that Heading's order.

Here is the webpage.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well, I decided on the originals, but was a little surprised to find the episodes aren't in the same order as the original "two per disc" set.

When those twin-packs were being released, there was considerable feedback that older fans wished they could relive the series "the way it was first presented" to the world. The team which produced the boxed sets convinced CBS to let them do "original broadcast order" (same as listed in the beloved "Star Trek Concordance"), and this had the added benefit of placing the restored "The Cage" pilot to the end of Season Three, thus pumping up the worthiness of the weaker third boxed set.

Does anyone have a copy of the old 1-79 (or 1-80) list? (Believe it was based on production order.)

The original "Star Trek Concordance" by Bjo Trimble has lists for "Airdate Order" and "Stardate Order". The "Star Trek Compendium" by Alan Asherman was the first book to research fully the production dates and popularize "Production Order".

if memory serves there were some hiccups in the numbering where MENAGERIE was concerned. (Didn't at one point it get changed from being counted as two episodes to being two halves of the same episode?)

Well, for a long time you'd see references in articles and books to "the 78 episodes of TOS", or "the 79 episodes of TOS", so people were disagreeing about how to count "The Menagerie" for a looooong time before "The Cage" was added to the list (as a retro #0 in the old numbered VHS singles from Time/Life, but released last - or as #80 in later lists.)

Note another interesting coincidence. Before "The Cage" was commercially available, there were 78 regular episodes (counting "The Menagerie" as one adventure), and 22 TAS episodes, making 100 adventures in all. The official production number for "Encounter at Farpoint" was 101.

 

[gastrof]

Memory Alpha lists each Seaon's episodes in "Episode" order by default, but if you click on the little box in the "Original Airdate" Heading, it will list them in Original Airdate order. Simply click on one of the little boxes in one of the Headings and it will sort the list in that Heading's order.

Here is the webpage.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

As mentioned, I do know the original airing order.

I asked about the recognized episode numbers.

 

[gastrof]

Well, I decided on the originals, but was a little surprised to find the episodes aren't in the same order as the original "two per disc" set.

When those twin-packs were being released, there was considerable feedback that older fans wished they could relive the series "the way it was first presented" to the world. The team which produced the boxed sets convinced CBS to let them do "original broadcast order" (same as listed in the beloved "Star Trek Concordance"), and this had the added benefit of placing the restored "The Cage" pilot to the end of Season Three, thus pumping up the worthiness of the weaker third boxed set...

But, as mentioned, I wanted THE NUMBERS. And if memory serves, however the original two-packs were released, they used the production order as the episode numbers. (From what I've been able to tell, WNMHGB was listed as episode 2, and when it was finally released, CAGE was listed as episode 1.)

Again, I'd been looking for the episode numbers that "everyone" used to use.

Hmmm...

Amazon.com still sells the old two-packs. Believe I saw the number of TURNABOUT INTRUDER as "79". Guess that'd make MENAGERIE a single episode, number-wise.

But was that for sure the old "recognized" numbering system?

There was a time when every source seemed to use the same numbering system, like it'd finally settled down to production order being "official" and a certain system being used. (CAGE- 0 or 1? MENAGERIE- two numbers or one?)

I just wanted a reminder on that old recognized system.

...Before "The Cage" was commercially available, there were 78 regular episodes (counting "The Menagerie" as one adventure), and 22 TAS episodes, making 100 adventures in all. The official production number for "Encounter at Farpoint" was 101.

Don't TV shows normally call the first episode "101" or "1.01"?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Just go through your list of eps in production order and start numbering. There was never agreement about whether to start from 0, or 1, or the second pilot, or to count "Menagerie" as one or two eps.

For a time, the old message boards carried a fan-created, pre-wiki, frequently-updated, "Star Trek List of Lists", and I recall numbered episode lists on that. It's probably still findable on Google. Or Wayback Machine.

if memory serves, however the original two-packs were released, they used the production order as the episode numbers.

Yes, but there was also a set of single VHS's before then. "The Cage" in colour/bw came out on sell-thru video right at the end of that run and was called #0, IIRC.

Don't TV shows normally call the first episode "101" or "1.01"?

That's precisely why I said "coincidentally".

In 1987, we knew very little of US studio numbering systems. #101 appeared on lots of pre-publicity material for TNG and knowing there'd been 100 previous adventures seemed... convenient.

 

[bobarino]

I have the blue yellow and red version too. But you can tell Where No Man Has Gone Before and the Corbomite Manuever definitely took place before The Man Trap did but that TV executives for you, you know

 

[gastrof]

Just go through your list of eps in production order and start numbering. There was never agreement about whether to start from 0, or 1, or the second pilot, or to count "Menagerie" as one or two eps...

Ewww...

I really thought things eventually settled down for a while, with "everyone" using the same system.

I had an old list showing both production and broadcast order that I'd pieced together myself, but the hard drive that had it was one of the things I lost, along with my recordings.

I'm trying to recreate that list.

Oh well...

 

[milo bloom]

This is a link to the Star Trek section of my DVD collection. I have all the 2 episode discs, and I've put them in order.

The Cage is on the last disc, and is noted as episode #1 (so the first DVD has episodes #2 and #3).

http://milo-bloom.dvdaf.com/owned/star-trek

 

[gastrof]

This is a link to the Star Trek section of my DVD collection. I have all the 2 episode discs, and I've put them in order.

The Cage is on the last disc, and is noted as episode #1 (so the first DVD has episodes #2 and #3).

http://milo-bloom.dvdaf.com/owned/star-trek

Thanks Milo.

That gave me what Amazon had, only all in one quick glance.

Compared it to the list I've come up with, and they match up exactly, numbering and all*.

VERY helpful.




*As far as production order, that is. For broadcast order, I've called Menagerie 11a and 11b, leaving The Cage at #79. I'm hoping that's "right".

 

[milo bloom]

This is a link to the Star Trek section of my DVD collection. I have all the 2 episode discs, and I've put them in order.

The Cage is on the last disc, and is noted as episode #1 (so the first DVD has episodes #2 and #3).

http://milo-bloom.dvdaf.com/owned/star-trek

Thanks Milo.

That gave me what Amazon had, only all in one quick glance.

Compared it to the list I've come up with, and they match up exactly, numbering and all*.

VERY helpful.




*As far as production order, that is. For broadcast order, I've called Menagerie 11a and 11b, leaving The Cage at #79. I'm hoping that's "right".

The Cage should be #1. The Menagerie is considered one production because (I believe) all the "new" footage was filmed within the production time of one regular episode, and it was only by virtue of weaving in the new footage that it was able to fill two hours worth of television.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Aha, here's the old Star Trek "List of Lists" I referred to. It dates back to the days of rec.arts. It has "The Cage" as #0, separate numbers for the two "Menagerie" halves and thus "Turnabout Intruder" as #79.

http://totse2.com/totse/en/ego/science_fiction/tnglist.html

First Season
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Order Air Date PCode Stardate Title
===== ========= ===== ======== ===========================================
0. - PILOT - 1 Unknown The Cage

1. Sep 8 66 6 1513.1 The Man Trap
2. Sep 15 66 8 1533.6 Charlie X
3. Sep 22 66 2 1312.4 Where No Man Has Gone Before
4. Sep 29 66 7 1704.2 The Naked Time
5. Oct 6 66 5 1672.1 The Enemy Within
6. Oct 13 66 4 1329.1 Mudd's Women
7. Oct 20 66 10 2712.4 What are Little Girls Made Of?
8. Oct 27 66 12 2713.5 Miri
9. Nov 3 66 11 2715.1 Dagger of the Mind
10. Nov 10 66 3 1512.2 The Corbomite Maneuver
11. Nov 17 66 16 3012.4 The Menagerie (Part One)
12. Nov 24 66 16 3012.4 The Menagerie (Part Two)
13. Dec 8 66 13 2817.6 The Conscience of the King
14. Dec 15 66 9 1709.1 Balance of Terror
15. Dec 29 66 17 3025.3 Shore Leave
16. Jan 5 67 14 2821.5 The Galileo Seven
17. Jan 12 67 18 2124.5 The Squire of Gothos
18. Jan 19 67 19 3045.6 Arena
19. Jan 26 67 21 3113.2 Tomorrow is Yesterday
20. Feb 2 67 15 2947.3 Court Martial
21. Feb 9 67 22 3156.2 The Return of the Archons
22. Feb 16 67 24 3141.9 Space Seed
23. Feb 23 67 23 3192.1 A Taste of Armageddon
24. Mar 2 67 25 3417.3 This Side of Paradise
25. Mar 9 67 26 3196.1 The Devil in the Dark
26. Mar 16 67 27 3198.4 Errand of Mercy
27. Mar 23 67 20 3087.6 The Alternative Factor
28. Apr 6 67 28 3134.0 The City on the Edge of Forever
29. Apr 13 67 29 3287.2 Operation - Annihilate

Second Season
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Order Air Date PCode Stardate Title
===== ========= ===== ======== ===========================================
30. Sep 15 67 34 3372.7 Amok Time
31. Sep 22 67 33 3468.1 Who Morns for Adonais
32. Sep 29 67 37 3451.9 The Changeling
33. Oct 6 67 39 Unknown Mirror, Mirror
34. Oct 13 67 38 3715.0 The Apple
35. Oct 20 67 35 4202.9 The Doomsday Machine
36. Oct 27 67 30 3018.2 Catspaw
37. Nov 3 67 41 4513.3 I, Mudd
38. Nov 10 67 31 3219.4 Metamorphosis
39. Nov 17 67 44 3842.3 Journey to Babel
40. Dec 1 67 32 3497.2 Friday's Child
41. Dec 8 67 40 3478.2 The Deadly Years
42. Dec 15 67 42 3619.2 Obsession
43. Dec 22 67 36 3614.9 Wolf in the Fold
44. Dec 29 67 42 4523.3 The Trouble with Tribbles
45. Jan 5 68 46 3211.7 The Gamesters of Triskellion
46. Jan 12 68 49 4598.0 A Piece of the Action
47. Jan 19 68 48 4307.1 The Immunity Syndrome
48. Feb 2 68 45 4211.4 A Private Little War
49. Feb 9 68 51 4768.3 Return to Tomorrow
50. Feb 16 68 52 2534.0 Patterns of Force
51. Feb 23 68 50 4657.5 By Any Other Name
52. Mar 1 68 54 Unknown The Omega Glory
53. Mar 8 68 53 4729.4 The Ultimate Computer
54. Mar 15 68 43 4040.7 Bread and Circuses
55. Mar 29 68 55 Unknown Assignment: Earth

Third Season
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Order Air Date PCode Stardate Title
===== ========= ===== ======== ===========================================
56. Sep 20 68 61 5431.4 Spock's Brain
57. Sep 27 68 59 5031.3 The Enterprise Incident
58. Oct 4 68 58 4842.6 The Paradise Syndrome
59. Oct 11 68 60 5027.3 And The Children Shall Lead
60. Oct 18 68 62 5630.7 Is There In Truth No Beauty?
61. Oct 25 68 56 4385.3 Spectre of the Gun
62. Nov 1 68 66 Unknown Day of the Dove
63. Nov 8 68 65 5476.3 For The World Is Hollow,
And I Have Touched the Sky
64. Nov 15 68 64 5693.4 The Tholian Web
65. Nov 22 68 67 5784.0 Plato's Stepchildren
66. Nov 29 68 68 5710.5 Wink of an Eye
67. Dec 6 68 63 5121.0 The Empath
68. Dec 20 68 57 4372.5 Elaan of Troyius
69. Jan 3 69 71 5718.3 Whom Gods Destroy
70. Jan 10 69 70 5730.2 Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
71. Jan 17 69 72 5423.4 The Mark Of Gideon
72. Jan 24 69 69 Unknown That Which Survives
73. Jan 31 69 73 5725.3 The Lights of Zetar
74. Feb 14 69 76 5843.7 Requiem for Methuselah
75. Feb 21 69 75 5832.3 The Way to Eden
76. Feb 28 69 74 5818.4 The Cloudminders
77. Mar 7 69 77 5906.4 The Savage Curtain
78. Mar 14 69 78 5943.7 All Our Yesterdays
79. Jun 3 69 79 5298.5 Turnabout Intruder.

 

[gastrof]

This is a link to the Star Trek section of my DVD collection. I have all the 2 episode discs, and I've put them in order.

The Cage is on the last disc, and is noted as episode #1 (so the first DVD has episodes #2 and #3).

http://milo-bloom.dvdaf.com/owned/star-trek

Thanks Milo.

That gave me what Amazon had, only all in one quick glance.

Compared it to the list I've come up with, and they match up exactly, numbering and all*.

VERY helpful.




*As far as production order, that is. For broadcast order, I've called Menagerie 11a and 11b, leaving The Cage at #79. I'm hoping that's "right".

The Cage should be #1. The Menagerie is considered one production because (I believe) all the "new" footage was filmed within the production time of one regular episode, and it was only by virtue of weaving in the new footage that it was able to fill two hours worth of television.

THE CAGE was #79 in the broadcast order, not #1, as I've said.

I'd wanted to include a copy of the list I came up with, but couldn't find a way to attach the file here.

 

[Therin of Andor]

THE CAGE was #79 in the broadcast order, not #1, as I've said.

Or, indeed: #80, if "The Menagerie" was being counted as two eps.

Since those early lists were compiled decades before the general public, or even most ST fans, had access to "The Cage", it would not have been given a designation of #1. In more recent years, the concept of comic book series putting out an "Issue #0" to denote a prequel or preview to #1 became quite common.

 

[Ssosmcin]

35. Oct 20 67 35 4202.9 The Doomsday Machine

Yeah, I always hated that "guesswork" stardate for TDDM. The only actual stardate mentioned was Decker's log, where it 4202.1. IIRC, there wasn't anything in the shooting script either, but it's been years since I've looked at it. Either way, it wasn't stated in the episode, so I never bought it. I'm just a jerk that way. :-)

 

[gastrof]

I moved the content of my .doc file to a simple text document (after it failed to appear correctly here), made a few adjustments, and here are the results-



Bdcst. Prod.
Order Order

01 06 The Man Trap
02 08 Charlie X
03 02 Where No Man Has Gone Before
04 07 The Naked Time
05 05 The Enemy Within
06 04 Mudd's Women
07 10 What Are Little Girls Made Of?
08 12 Miri
09 11 Dagger of the Mind
10 03 The Corbomite Maneuver
11a 16a The Menagerie, Part I
11b 16b The Menagerie, Part II
12 13 The Conscience of the King
13 09 Balance of Terror
14 17 Shore Leave
15 14 The Galileo Seven
16 18 The Squire of Gothos
17 19 Arena
18 21 Tomorrow is Yesterday
19 15 Court Martial
20 22 The Return of the Archons
21 24 Space Seed
22 23 A Taste of Armageddon
23 25 This Side of Paradise
24 26 The Devil in the Dark
25 27 Errand of Mercy
26 20 The Alternative Factor
27 28 The City on the Edge of Forever
28 29 Operation: Annihilate!

Bdcst. Prod.
Order Order

29 34 Amok Time
30 33 Who Mourns for Adonais?
31 37 The Changeling
32 39 Mirror, Mirror
33 38 The Apple
34 35 The Doomsday Machine
35 30 Catspaw
36 41 I, Mudd
37 31 Metamorphosis
38 44 Journey to Babel
39 32 Friday's Child
40 40 The Deadly Years
41 47 Obsession
42 36 Wolf in the Fold
43 42 The Trouble with Tribbles
44 46 The Gamesters of Triskelion
45 49 A Piece of the Action
46 48 The Immunity Syndrome
47 45 A Private Little War
48 51 Return to Tomorrow
49 52 Patterns of Force
50 50 By Any Other Name
51 54 The Omega Glory
52 53 The Ultimate Computer
53 43 Bread and Circuses
54 55 Assignment: Earth

Bdcst. Prod.
Order Order

55 61 Spock's Brain
56 59 The Enterprise Incident
57 58 The Paradise Syndrome
58 60 And the Children Shall Lead
59 62 Is There in Truth No Beauty?
60 56 Spectre of the Gun
61 66 Day of the Dove
62 65 For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
63 64 The Tholian Web
64 67 Plato's Stepchildren
65 68 Wink of an Eye
66 63 The Empath
67 57 Elaan of Troyius
68 71 Whom Gods Destroy
69 70 Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
70 72 The Mark of Gideon
71 69 That Which Survives
72 73 The Lights of Zetar
73 76 Requiem for Methuselah
74 75 The Way to Eden
75 74 The Cloud Minders
76 77 The Savage Curtain
77 78 All Our Yesterdays
78 79 Turnabout Intruder
79 01 The Cage


Oh well...

Spacing's a bit off, but you get the idea.

 

[gastrof]

THE CAGE was #79 in the broadcast order, not #1, as I've said.

Or, indeed: #80, if "The Menagerie" was being counted as two eps.

Since those early lists were compiled decades before the general public, or even most ST fans, had access to "The Cage", it would not have been given a designation of #1. In more recent years, the concept of comic book series putting out an "Issue #0" to denote a prequel or preview to #1 became quite common.

Which is what makes me suspect the real reason Menagerie ended up with a single episode number (although there's an argument that both parts were filmed together, in the time limit of a single episode).

For years people had known "There are 79 episodes of Star Trek". Once The Cage came into the mix, Menagerie got renumbered so the count would stay the same.

That's my guess anyway. Someone in fandom was being nostalgic.