Planetary Defenses and a Standing Army for Starfleet
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How do these outer perimeter defenses work? Like the Pluto one. Are the defenses located only at Pluto? Even if approaching ships are confined to the ecliptic, (Which makes no sense) invaders could just cross Pluto's orbit on the other side of the orbit from Pluto, over 11 billion kilometers away.
But then maybe its weapons platforms distributed along Pluto's orbit. If their range is about 100,000 km, it would take about 180,000 of them. No problem, the industrial replicators will pump 'em out in two minutes.
Robert
But then maybe its weapons platforms distributed along Pluto's orbit. If their range is about 100,000 km, it would take about 180,000 of them. No problem, the industrial replicators will pump 'em out in two minutes.
Robert
I think the biggest problem in this discussion is the bigger question. What is Starfleet?
Now, I'm not talking about whether its a navy or NASA of the future. I think we can all at least agree its a mix of many things, with Starfleet being a all encompassing agency of the Federation (at least, for this argument).
Now, the thing I want everyone to look at isn't what Starfleet is, but what it is to who. The United Federation of Planets.
The Federation is a union of planets, not an interstellar empire. The Federation speaks on behalf of its member worlds.
My point. The Federation's power lies in the space between the planets, not the planets themselves. Colonies may have a large Federation presence, but member worlds may have little interaction with the Federation in daily life. For example, Vulcan maintains its own intelligence and security ministry. Whats wrong with Starfleet Intelligence?
Simple, SI provides its services for the Federation Vulcan belongs too. Vulcan exercises its own sovereignty in matters of planetary security.
Starfleet would be expected to prevent an invading fleet from reaching Vulcan, but in the event they failed, they would support Vulcan's defense. While Vulcan might cede control to a more experienced Starfleet Admiral during wartime, during peacetime it falls to whomever the Vulcan government wants in charge of it.
So each planet is responsible for maintaining its own defense. They benefit from being part of the Federation in that they don't have to maintain a large fleet since they only need to focus on defense of their own system. Plus, the knowledge that if they are attacked, the combined might of 149 other planets (threw the Federation's Starfleet) will support them. But the individual planet is still responsible for defending the planet itself, threw its own army.
Starfleet probaly doesn't have a proper army by our standards, but as I've said in other threads of this topic, they most likly have a plan for planet side operations. Starfleet Security is the marines of Starfleet. We look at today for examples of marines. For most here, that example is the United States Marine Corps.
Unfortantly (for this conversation), the US Marines have evolved to something beyond just being the very definition of being a marine, so you are all using a terrible example. The US Marines today are not the US Marines 100 years ago or 200 years ago. Marines 200 years ago would not be used for on going operations in a forign country. The US Army would. Marines of that time would be used defending ships, capturing ships, and making coastal raids. Not being the spearhead of an invasion to the heart of a country.
Today the US Marines are a all encompassing branch. Most of what they use would have been unthinkable back in the day of its formation (if those stuff didn't seem like witchcraft). Why have airplanes when the Navy can provide that? Because the Marine Corps of today are not traditional marines.
Starfleet Security is. We have seen them defend ships and stations many times. They board enemy ships. They provide security on a ship. They make raids on planets when needed. They are traditional marines. Not US Marines.
Planetary invasions 300 years from now are gonna be one of two things. Long drawn out bloody campaigns involving hundreds of millions of troops. Or quick surgical campaigns using thousands. Star Trek gives us the view of the latter. Large armies marching around are not needed, since planetary bombardment has become an art. Instead of millions upon millions needed to secure an entire planet, thousands are needed to secure the locations that are to important to simply wipe off the map.
Starfleet, like any other military may raise this army when its needed threw the formation of an actual Federation Army (doubtful) or threw the consolidation of existing Starfleet resources into fighting units (most likely). But during peacetime, it relies on its members to provide for there own defense on the planet surface.
One last thing. I am also of the view that Earth is a special case. I believe the Earth government in the 22nd century ceded complete control of the planet to the new UFP which has given it more control over the Federation as a whole. Threw this, when the UFP formed, the Earth Starfleet was transferred to Federation control. Because of this, Earth doesn't provide for its own defense. Starfleet does.
Lets not forget, the original point of the District of Columbia was so no state would gain influence over the Federal government. Earth I think is the same case.
Now, I'm not talking about whether its a navy or NASA of the future. I think we can all at least agree its a mix of many things, with Starfleet being a all encompassing agency of the Federation (at least, for this argument).
Now, the thing I want everyone to look at isn't what Starfleet is, but what it is to who. The United Federation of Planets.
The Federation is a union of planets, not an interstellar empire. The Federation speaks on behalf of its member worlds.
My point. The Federation's power lies in the space between the planets, not the planets themselves. Colonies may have a large Federation presence, but member worlds may have little interaction with the Federation in daily life. For example, Vulcan maintains its own intelligence and security ministry. Whats wrong with Starfleet Intelligence?
Simple, SI provides its services for the Federation Vulcan belongs too. Vulcan exercises its own sovereignty in matters of planetary security.
Starfleet would be expected to prevent an invading fleet from reaching Vulcan, but in the event they failed, they would support Vulcan's defense. While Vulcan might cede control to a more experienced Starfleet Admiral during wartime, during peacetime it falls to whomever the Vulcan government wants in charge of it.
So each planet is responsible for maintaining its own defense. They benefit from being part of the Federation in that they don't have to maintain a large fleet since they only need to focus on defense of their own system. Plus, the knowledge that if they are attacked, the combined might of 149 other planets (threw the Federation's Starfleet) will support them. But the individual planet is still responsible for defending the planet itself, threw its own army.
Starfleet probaly doesn't have a proper army by our standards, but as I've said in other threads of this topic, they most likly have a plan for planet side operations. Starfleet Security is the marines of Starfleet. We look at today for examples of marines. For most here, that example is the United States Marine Corps.
Unfortantly (for this conversation), the US Marines have evolved to something beyond just being the very definition of being a marine, so you are all using a terrible example. The US Marines today are not the US Marines 100 years ago or 200 years ago. Marines 200 years ago would not be used for on going operations in a forign country. The US Army would. Marines of that time would be used defending ships, capturing ships, and making coastal raids. Not being the spearhead of an invasion to the heart of a country.
Today the US Marines are a all encompassing branch. Most of what they use would have been unthinkable back in the day of its formation (if those stuff didn't seem like witchcraft). Why have airplanes when the Navy can provide that? Because the Marine Corps of today are not traditional marines.
Starfleet Security is. We have seen them defend ships and stations many times. They board enemy ships. They provide security on a ship. They make raids on planets when needed. They are traditional marines. Not US Marines.
Planetary invasions 300 years from now are gonna be one of two things. Long drawn out bloody campaigns involving hundreds of millions of troops. Or quick surgical campaigns using thousands. Star Trek gives us the view of the latter. Large armies marching around are not needed, since planetary bombardment has become an art. Instead of millions upon millions needed to secure an entire planet, thousands are needed to secure the locations that are to important to simply wipe off the map.
Starfleet, like any other military may raise this army when its needed threw the formation of an actual Federation Army (doubtful) or threw the consolidation of existing Starfleet resources into fighting units (most likely). But during peacetime, it relies on its members to provide for there own defense on the planet surface.
One last thing. I am also of the view that Earth is a special case. I believe the Earth government in the 22nd century ceded complete control of the planet to the new UFP which has given it more control over the Federation as a whole. Threw this, when the UFP formed, the Earth Starfleet was transferred to Federation control. Because of this, Earth doesn't provide for its own defense. Starfleet does.
Lets not forget, the original point of the District of Columbia was so no state would gain influence over the Federal government. Earth I think is the same case.
Incorrect. United Earth did not cease to exist when the Federation was formed. It still exists. (Logically, it must; otherwise, Earth citizens would have no vote, no representation, and no rights!)
Not only was the UNITED EARTH Space Probe Agency mentioned in TOS (set after the UFP is formed), but also: in DS9's Homefront/Paradise Lost, there was supposed to be a scene where the Federation President "federalizes" Earth defense forces to deal with the changeling crisis, but it got cut for time.
The United States Air Force didn't exist during WW2. He served in the Navy's air division.
Yes, but the District of Columbia's disenfranchisement is a horrific crime against constitutional liberal democracy that is badly in need of reform, since it leaves half a million American citizens with no representation in their own government. Of all the things about America the Federation could imitate, the disenfranchisement of the capital is NOT one of them!
Besides, as noted above, we've seen references to United Earth continuing to exist after the Federation's formation, and there's no evidence for the view that you're advocating. There's also been explicit non-canonical evidence of UE continuing to exist within the Federation in the fiction line -- the short story "Eleven Hours Out" in Tales of the Dominion War, for instance, establishes that after the Breen attack on Earth, the President of the United States, Prime Minister of United Earth, and President of the United Federation of Planets all toured San Francisco to view the damage. The novel A Time for War, A Time For Peace by Keith RA DeCandido referred to United Earth government regulations prohibiting the use of transporters in historic buildings.
Before the Air Force was formed, it was part of the Army (the US Army Air Corps), not the Navy. That's where Gene served: the Army Air Corps. So we're both partly wrong.
TNG and to some extent Voyager was. TOS and DS9 notsomuch. Of course TNG was when Roddenberry lost all of his balls and became a complete weenie pacifist.
Each show focused on certain aspects of Starfleet, with all of these aspects personified by their captains. Kirk was an explorer/adventurer which is what Starfleet in TOS and the show was about. Picard was a diplomat. Starfleet became more touchy-feely during this time. They basicly became the Peace Corps in space. Sisko was a battle-hardened solider. Starfleet was treated as a military organization, essentially making it The Space Navy . And IMO that's what it should be treated as. Janeway was a scientist. Hence all the technobable and all the time shift-annomoly-nanoprobes with mohawks cure hangovers-thingamajig of the week on Voyager.
I have no doubt that "Royal" this-or-that will survive long past the abolition of monarchy in Britain, too. United Earth might have ceased to be the form of government on Earth right after ENT, really. Or the name of a formerly mighty planetary government might have come to mean a minor rubber-stamp office somewhere in downtown San Francisco by the 24th century.
We never get too careful a political analysis in that episode, be it aired or unaired. For all we know, Earth and the Federation are a double reign: Mr Jaresh-Inyo could hold the titles "President of the UFP" and "President of Earth" simultaneously, the latter a mainly ceremonial role outside rare emergencies.
While various forms of government have been proposed for the Federation and its member worlds, some going for rationality and simplicity and uniformity, some valuing historical precedent, none should be used for arguing that what is seen onscreen would somehow be "wrong". If the onscreen impression we get of the management of Federation defenses is somewhat muddied, we would be well off assuming that the reality of Federation defenses is equally muddied...
Timo Saloniemi
Well note also "United Earth Space Probe Agency", key word "Agency".
This could well be just a government department that funds and devises space missions, carried out by Starfleet, very much in the same way that the CIA devises missions carried out by military special forces.
UESPA could easily have been an agency that was pushing for Archer's mission to be, for example, contact with new species or exploring for resources. They get an agreement for their projects to be 25% of the mission and provide 25% of the funding from their budget.
In Kirk's time the success and proven capabilities of this organisation mean that it is still well respected within Starfleet and the Federation despite its antiquated name, as they still help fund for example 10% of the construction of the Consitution class to include extra labs/sensors as specified by UESPA.
This is how things like this work in the modern world after all.
I don't see any evidence that United Earth has been diminished or abolished. There is absolutely no reason it would. Every other Federation member world we've ever seen has continued to operate their local government; Earth would be no different. And until somebody onscreen specifically says there is no more United Earth, then we can only assume that there IS.
And as I just said: UE *must* logically exist. If it did not, then no one on Earth would have any kind of representation or rights whatsoever. The Federation is a democracy - and this must extend to actual natives of Earth. You can't have a democracy if you have no vote in it!
Well ... the exact politics of things may result in some anomalies. The Federal City for the United States went nearly two centuries without any direct representation in the government, and it's still handled in a jurisdictional manner that's quirky to put it kindly. The United States is nevertheless a rather successful representative democracy; it's just that things that develop as the agglutination of differing interests can fall short of logical consistency.
I'm not to good at using tags, so forgive me on my response, but I'm gonna try to address them in order.
1. I personally disregard mentioned of UESPA in TOS. It was obviously a writers mistake with the show evolving over time to eventually becoming the Federation Starfleet instead.
And who says they have no representation. Earth is the Federation. Starfleet obviously puts its protection at the top of its to do list (with the Admiralty wary about sending forces to take DS9 back, one of the most important strategic points in the region, in fear that Earth would be an easy target. Why would what you say to be a non-member be so important? Because Earth is the example of the Federation).
2. The District of Columbia is only a modern day example since thats what we all go with really. I'm not saying its exactly like DC, but it seems to me while all other worlds are members of a federation, Earth is not. Other then mentions of UESPA, we have nothing else. UESPA doesn't exist in the 24th century? Why would Earth, the leader of exploration in the region in the 22nd century before the founding of the UFP stop exploring, but the Vulcans, who did very little exploring still be doing it itself.
Because UESPA was a writers mistake, and the Earth Starfleet which did explore space still does. But as the Federation Starfleet.
Oh and its already been established that if its not in video form, its not considered offical canon for Star Trek. I've read those books you mentioned. I've also read others. I don't remember a single mention of the Earth government during the hologram strike. Wouldn't the government of a planet crippled by a strike take action? Wait, the Federation did take action....
I just don't think Earth has a government anymore. It has no need for one. The Federation takes care of Earth. I still think that Earth ceded its independence to the UFP as an example to the others. Why else would they agree to have Earth be its capital. Because Johnny Archer made friends with all of them. Thats not enough.
Earth is the Federation. Vulcan and Andoria are not. They are members of the Federation.
Which also explains why humans are seen the most in Starfleet uniforms instead of other members, and why an alliance of 150 fully developed worlds failed to raise a fleet to take the Dominion and Cardassian fleets. Come on, you have a fleet operating far from home being sustained from resources of a small empire, and that same empire sustaining its own army.
Starfleet is the Earth military but is also the Federation military. If it weren't, then their would be no reasonable excuse as to how the Romulans or Klingons could remain a threat after their alliance ended.
1. I personally disregard mentioned of UESPA in TOS. It was obviously a writers mistake with the show evolving over time to eventually becoming the Federation Starfleet instead.
And who says they have no representation. Earth is the Federation. Starfleet obviously puts its protection at the top of its to do list (with the Admiralty wary about sending forces to take DS9 back, one of the most important strategic points in the region, in fear that Earth would be an easy target. Why would what you say to be a non-member be so important? Because Earth is the example of the Federation).
2. The District of Columbia is only a modern day example since thats what we all go with really. I'm not saying its exactly like DC, but it seems to me while all other worlds are members of a federation, Earth is not. Other then mentions of UESPA, we have nothing else. UESPA doesn't exist in the 24th century? Why would Earth, the leader of exploration in the region in the 22nd century before the founding of the UFP stop exploring, but the Vulcans, who did very little exploring still be doing it itself.
Because UESPA was a writers mistake, and the Earth Starfleet which did explore space still does. But as the Federation Starfleet.
Oh and its already been established that if its not in video form, its not considered offical canon for Star Trek. I've read those books you mentioned. I've also read others. I don't remember a single mention of the Earth government during the hologram strike. Wouldn't the government of a planet crippled by a strike take action? Wait, the Federation did take action....
I just don't think Earth has a government anymore. It has no need for one. The Federation takes care of Earth. I still think that Earth ceded its independence to the UFP as an example to the others. Why else would they agree to have Earth be its capital. Because Johnny Archer made friends with all of them. Thats not enough.
Earth is the Federation. Vulcan and Andoria are not. They are members of the Federation.
Which also explains why humans are seen the most in Starfleet uniforms instead of other members, and why an alliance of 150 fully developed worlds failed to raise a fleet to take the Dominion and Cardassian fleets. Come on, you have a fleet operating far from home being sustained from resources of a small empire, and that same empire sustaining its own army.
Starfleet is the Earth military but is also the Federation military. If it weren't, then their would be no reasonable excuse as to how the Romulans or Klingons could remain a threat after their alliance ended.
Nonsense. That doesn't even make sense.
More nonsense. The whole reason Spock was in the command crew was to INEXPENSIVELY remind viewers this was a multi-species crew. He was the TOKEN ALIEN.
Gene Roddenberry's intent -- if The Making of Star Trek-The Motion Picture is to be believed -- was that the drippy-faced Arcturans were the Federation's foot soldiers. Cloning was supposedly part of their culture, and they employed it to create vast armies that could be called up -- militia-style -- when needed.
Are the Arcturians male or female?
That does not make sense either. Do city governments disappear because they are part of states? Do state governments cease to exist because they are part of the USA? No? Then why would United Earth no longer exist because of the founding of the Federation? Occam's Razor, people. Occam's Razor.
And no one has as yet answered my point. If there were no United Earth government, then no one on Earth would have any rights. You must have representation in the government before you can have any rights under that government.
As I recall, there are movements to make Washington, DC a full state. Why do you think they want this? I doubt its natives are very happy that they have no rights either. Because, unless they have voting representation in Congress, they DON'T.
Evidence. Where's the evidence? Until somebody onscreen specifically says that UE no longer exists, then by definition, it still does.
The capital has to be *somewhere*. Just because it's on Earth, doesn't make Earth special. Earth is one of the founding worlds of the Federation, true, but it's no more so than Vulcan, Tellar or Andor.
And another thing. If people insist on bringing up Washington, DC as an example, then that could still carry over into the UFP/Earth relationship. Is the entire surface of the Earth covered with Federation government buildings? Of course not. Then why would the entire planet need to be sectioned off? Just do what we're already doing: set aside however much land is needed for Federation government administration, but leave the whole rest of the Earth as the existing state of United Earth. Hell, for all we know, that's exactly the case.
It obviously does in ENT. We haven't seen anything to suggest that this government has *disappeared* sometime between then and the later shows. (If ENT had never had a reference to UE, then you might have a case, but as it stands, it established one; it's up to the later shows to dismantle it, if they dare) Failing that, one can only conclude it's still there.
I mean, what do you think the word "federation" means? It's an alliance of worlds, of which Earth is one. All other UFP member worlds keep their own governments. No reason Earth could not.
(And *still* no one has answered the point that if there is no indigenous Earth government, then no Earth citizen has any rights.)
Besides - and I admit this is unofficial - the writers of the novels obviously believe there still is a United Earth, as anyone who has read "Eleven Hours Out" (from Tales of the Dominion War) will know. Since this is the only Trek we will ever see in the foreseeable future (the new film doesn't count), then even if it's not technically official, it *effectively* is.
Also (THIS is canon, because it was onscreen), the "It's Federation Day!" portion of Picard's family album, states (among other things) that United Earth had an ambassador to the Federation. You can't have an ambassador if your government no longer exists.
So there.
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