Pike Going *Back* to the Talosians

[Phaser Two]

Maybe that's the joke, but I thought it was Indiana Jones who said that to Belloq (sp?) in "Raider of the Lost Ark".

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!! How embarrassing! Thank you! That was NOT the joke. I was completely thinking Han said that to Greedo but of course it was a drunken Jones slurring that to Belloq right before pulling on a gun on him (and then being outgunned by about 50 guys, then being saved by Sallah's kids, etc.). Unbelievable that I blew that. Nice catch!

 

[Phoenix219]

To make a short story long, Vina was probably incapable of bearing children by the time Pike was returned to Talos IV in "Menagerie".

In "Menagerie" Spock says:



Since precise Spock says thirteen years ago, it must have been between 13.0 and 14.0 years before Spock takes Pike back to Talos IV in "Menagerie".



If precise Spock said eighteen years it would have been between 18.0 and 19.0. But since Spock said approximately eighteen years it may have been between 17.0 and 20.0 years.

Thus Spock took Pike back to Talos IV about 30 to 34.0 years after the Columbia crashed on Talos IV.

In "The Cage" and "Menagerie", Vina may look about the same age as her actor Susan Oliver, who was born February 13, 1932 and thus was almost 33 when her scenes were filmed on 27 November to 18 December 1934. But she may look much younger:



This implies that Vina looked only about 18.



Number one's attitude certainly indicates that Vina was recorded to be much older at the time of the crash than Yeoman Tina "Lizard girl" Lawton or Yeoman Colt (played by 22-year-old Laurel Goodwin).

In medieval times Princess Agnes (1072/73-1143) of the Holy Roman Empire had at least 22 children born between 1088 and about 1118, about a 30 year period up to about age 45. Duke Leopold III of Austria (1351-1386) was born when his mother Joanna of Pfirt (c. 1300-1351) was reportedly 51.

The ability of a woman to bear children tends to decrease greatly years before menopause. Woman usually reach menopause and loose the ability to bear children between ages 49 and 52. The oldest known mother to conceive naturally was Dawn Brooke at the age of 59, while the oldest known woman to give birth was 66 years and 358 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_over_age_50



http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Keiko_O'Brien

It is not known if theTalosians had equivalent assisted reproductive medicine for Humans available.

If Vina was aged 30.0 to 60.0 at the time of the crash she would be aged about 47.0 to 79.0 in "The Cage" and about 60.0 to 94.0 in "Menagerie".

When the Talosians showed Pike Vina's "true form" she had white hair and looked like she was already too old to have much chance to reproduce, let alone 13 more years later in "Menagerie".

Of course that is assuming that Vina was still capable of reproducing after the crash in the first place.



There are an almost infinite possible speculative reasons for the return of Pike to Talos IV.

So just 18 years prior to the Cage we were supposed to be using old style radio waves.... and the time warp barrier has recently broken.... and some place the Enterprise can get to pretty easily was the distant frontier from 18 years ago....(31 years ago?) ....and there are not yet any earth colonies out that far.....

I'm thinking that everything was supposed to be a LOT more recent in terms of technology breakthroughs and federation history.... we were supposed to be on the brink of a brand new frontier... not a couple hundred years into it.

God, an alt universe prequel to the Cage with absolutely no future Trek canon to hold it back would be *so much fun.*

 

[Timo]

So just 18 years prior to the Cage we were supposed to be using old style radio waves...

Probably not - I gather this was supposed to be a "message in a bottle" style emergency means for the Columbia castaways to send their SOS. Or "an old-style distress signal", as opposed to "old-style communications".

The mode of signaling would be optimized to carry as little information as possible, in order to pique the interest of our heroes. And with "optimized" I mean not by the Talosians, who would understand little about messaging and less about humans - but by the heroes themselves, who always "fill in the blanks" when illusions are being projected at them. It's all in their heads, which are being used as weapons against themselves.

.. and the time warp barrier has recently broken.... and some place the Enterprise can get to pretty easily was the distant frontier from 18 years ago....(31 years ago?) ....and there are not yet any earth colonies out that far..... I'm thinking that everything was supposed to be a LOT more recent in terms of technology breakthroughs and federation history.... we were supposed to be on the brink of a brand new frontier... not a couple hundred years into it.

This introduces a few problems, both as regards the adventure at hand, and the regular show that would have followed. If there is little or nothing human out there, how come Pike stumbles onto another set of humans by total accident, at a location where he doesn't expect to meet anybody? If an Earth ship "disappears in that region", how come it isn't bigger news, a flagged mission for Pike when he happens onto the region, in this scenario where happenings are supposedly rare? How come the disappearance of a snail-paced Earth ship cannot be spatially pinpointed if her moment of disappearance can?

Such concerns would raise their heads again in all future missions where Pike interacts with humans out there.

God, an alt universe prequel to the Cage with absolutely no future Trek canon to hold it back would be *so much fun.*

Yes. And something we could well do on TV today. Back then, though... TOS was doable because everybody in deep space looked human, and could in many cases be excused for looking human, what with space travel from Earth being dirt cheap and ubiquitous. This much more interesting alternate universe for Pike to explore would be a much bigger challenge to makeup artists every week.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cgervasi]

The morality of Star Trek, and I believe even in "The Cage", very often asserts that idea that the fate of death is preferable to what the alternative would be. Pike and Vina are not going to have children at that point, but it is the questionable morality of going off with these people regardless. So for all those reasons, Pike going back to Talos to live out his life has bothered me. That said, I wondered what others thought of that, and the morality involved in that decision?

In The Cage, the crew seems to agree with the claim that humans prefer death to even benevolent captivity. But then Pike says he agreed with Vina's reasons for staying. She appeared only mildly disfigured. If everyone in the Federation who had that level of disability went to Talos, they would have an army of people with mild to severe disabilities.

 

[Phoenix219]

In The Cage, the crew seems to agree with the claim that humans prefer death to even benevolent captivity. But then Pike says he agreed with Vina's reasons for staying. She appeared only mildly disfigured. If everyone in the Federation who had that level of disability went to Talos, they would have an army of people with mild to severe disabilities.

I guess its the thin line between benevolent captivity, and checking yourself into an psych ward by choice / choosing to become a shut in / choosing to live in an assisted care facility...! Vina choosing to stay, and Pike choosing to return, were of their own free will..... no captivity at all, benevolence being irrelevant.

 

[johnnybear]

Vina was only mildly disfigured? Were we watching the same show? Not only was she a twisted, pathetic creature, physically! But she was also a helluva lot older than Pike was originally told! Number One spills the beans at the end by stating Vina was an adult crewman on the Columbia rather than a child as the fake survivors claimed!
JB

 

[cgervasi]

Vina was only mildly disfigured? Were we watching the same show? Not only was she a twisted, pathetic creature, physically! But she was also a helluva lot older than Pike was originally told! Number One spills the beans at the end by stating Vina was an adult crewman on the Columbia rather than a child as the fake survivors claimed!JB

I see people IRL who are more disabled leading successful lives.

I would call her disfigurement minor since she seems to be able to get around and do normal activities. The Talosians planned for her to start a race of slaves, so they think she's well enough to have babies.

It seems like the show is saying being of late child-bearing age (as Number One calculates), female, and unattractive is nearly as bad as death. Pike was going to commit suicide to avoid living there, but once he learns she's 36 and disfigured he agrees with her reasons for staying.

 

[Timo]

Vina moving around is an illusion every time it happens. Does this mean she is in fact incapable of getting around?

Or is it vice versa? Is Vina's disfigurement an illusion, created in order to sway Pike, who seems to have no capacity for contradicting women?

How vice versa would it be? Does Vina even exist? Is it all about swaying Pike and Pike only, first to entrap him and some of his female crew, then to make him and his female crew leave peacefully rather than vengefully? The Talosians seem satisfied with Pike as a specimen from the very get-go, yet they still persist with illusions and endlessly delay the necessary destroying of the Enterprise. Is this because they don't have their priorities straight - or because the whole point is to grab some Earth women, too, and Pike took none down with him the first time around?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shawnster]

Vina moving around is an illusion every time it happens. Does this mean she is in fact incapable of getting around?

Or is it vice versa? Is Vina's disfigurement an illusion, created in order to sway Pike, who seems to have no capacity for contradicting women?

How vice versa would it be? Does Vina even exist? Is it all about swaying Pike and Pike only, first to entrap him and some of his female crew, then to make him and his female crew leave peacefully rather than vengefully? The Talosians seem satisfied with Pike as a specimen from the very get-go, yet they still persist with illusions and endlessly delay the necessary destroying of the Enterprise. Is this because they don't have their priorities straight - or because the whole point is to grab some Earth women, too, and Pike took none down with him the first time around?

Timo Saloniemi

You do realize most of these questions rewrite or ruin the ending of the story, right? And that if Vina does not exist at all then the entire story is gutted tot he point of making no sense? For the story to actually work Vina must be real. This is the entire motivation for capturing humans, human males, specifically Pike.

For Vina to not be fully functional "everything works" again removes the motivation for the entire plot. The Talosians motives and plans rely on Vina producing viable offspring.

If the Vina in her true form is a fabrication, this serves no useful purpose. Pike was already leaving. Seeing Vina in her true form was only to convince him that her desire to stay was "genuine."

 

[Timo]

Umm, wrong. The Talosians don't need Vina or "Vina" for anything but trapping Pike. After that, they have their breeding program down pat - they have Pike and Pike's women, and as many additional men and women as they dare ask.

When the Talosians have the upper hand, they do illusions. When they get the two women, they stop doing those. The project seems to have reached its conclusion, although the starship is still available for additional breeders. But when Pike escapes and unexpectedly almost manages to complete the escape, thanks to Number One, the Talosians spring to activity again - dramatically hollering about the human unwillingness to remain captive, then presenting Vina. So Pike leaves in peace, instead of bombarding Talos back to what came before stone age.

Vina is consistently used for manipulation. Breeding seems to be on the menu without manipulation, though - none is attempted on the bona fide women. "Genuine" would appear to be a word only applicable to our heroes here, and even then mainly to the two ladies who aren't being led astray. But the more ambivalent the ending, the better the story about illusions...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Poltargyst]

Yes, Vina was a real woman. Yes, she was really disfigured as presented.

 

[Timo]

And yes, she was really green as presented, too. On occasion.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

You do realize most of these questions rewrite or ruin the ending of the story, right? And that if Vina does not exist at all then the entire story is gutted tot he point of making no sense? For the story to actually work Vina must be real. This is the entire motivation for capturing humans, human males, specifically Pike.

For Vina to not be fully functional "everything works" again removes the motivation for the entire plot. The Talosians motives and plans rely on Vina producing viable offspring.

If the Vina in her true form is a fabrication, this serves no useful purpose. Pike was already leaving. Seeing Vina in her true form was only to convince him that her desire to stay was "genuine."

Maybe they were actually planning on making an army of Pike clones.

Kor

 

[Poltargyst]

And yes, she was really green as presented, too. On occasion.

Timo Saloniemi

We know the greeness is an illusion because the writer tells us that. We do not know that Vina herself is an illusion or that her deformity is an illusion because we are not told that they are just illusion. They are presented as real and are real until further notice.

 

[Farscape One]

Well, Vina herself said that when they fixed her, the Talosians had no blueprint to follow. If you had a building project to do, and had no manual or knowledge beforehand of what it should look like, then it would almost certainly look... mangled. So I can see her deformity as a reality and not a new illusion.

 

[johnnybear]

Vina couldn't move very well I take it but with the Talosians power of illusion she was as mobile as any young unimpaired woman! The same with Pike, he would be able to speak and stretch his legs and run about with the aid of their minds! The Federation did not want any contact with Talos IV because they too believed that the Talosians power could be misused to like that of twentieth century drug abuse or even could be used as a weapon! Plus they probably didn't trust the Talosians either!
JB