Or maybe she just knew Picard all too well?
Typical Picard First Contact
Worst Federation Captain ever!
Picard's worst choice?
- Thread starter RobertScorpio
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Or maybe she just knew Picard all too well?
Typical Picard First Contact
Worst Federation Captain ever!
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
Picking a relatively young, inexperienced Alaskan as his second-in-command.
Nah. He probably had more leadership experience than some leaders chosen to command positions.
It's strange that before visiting the Edo planet, or any new planet actually, that Starfleet doesn't insist that the Edo send their crews a copy of their laws to familarise themselves with the local customs.
But they did. Tasha Yar explicitly says that she has reviewed the local laws, and that she finds nothing amiss with them.
It's too bad that the laws omitted the one thing that every native would have found self-evident: the type of punishment. Now, a citizen of today might find it strange that our heroes wouldn't notice this omission. But this isn't so obvious when one considers how the 24th century justice system works in the Federation. There isn't a range of punishments, from stern warnings to fines to jail sentences to hanging to torturing of entire family to death. There is only a single possible consequence to crime in the Federation, as far as we know, and that is forced therapy.
It would have been the most natural thing in the world for Yar to assume that this was also the single consequence in the Edo legal system, as punishment-based justice systems must seem awfully barbaric to our heroes, and the Edo obviously weren't barbaric!
Timo Saloniemi
It's too bad that the laws omitted the one thing that every native would have found self-evident: the type of punishment. Now, a citizen of today might find it strange that our heroes wouldn't notice this omission. But this isn't so obvious when one considers how the 24th century justice system works in the Federation. There isn't a range of punishments, from stern warnings to fines to jail sentences to hanging to torturing of entire family to death. There is only a single possible consequence to crime in the Federation, as far as we know, and that is forced therapy.
It would have been the most natural thing in the world for Yar to assume that this was also the single consequence in the Edo legal system, as punishment-based justice systems must seem awfully barbaric to our heroes, and the Edo obviously weren't barbaric!
Timo Saloniemi
Nah, I believe that honor belongs to the hapless captain of the USS Grissom in 'The Search for Spock'.
Nah, I believe that honor belongs to the hapless captain of the USS Grissom in 'The Search for Spock'.
You're both forgetting about Harriman.
Hands down, it has to be in Nemesis when Picard allows Data to reassemble B-4 and then to make matters worse allows Data to down load his own memory into the other android. Data is second officer on the Federation's flagship. His memory certainly contains classified material! Worf should have said one word to stop his Captain, "Lore!"
This absolute travesty of writing makes Picard look like a fool who doesn't have any knowledge of mission security or of his own ship's logs!
Couldn't have said it better myself...
surely thats Archer!?
Nah, I believe that honor belongs to the hapless captain of the USS Grissom in 'The Search for Spock'.
You're both forgetting about Harriman.
How the Hell did Harriman even get a command, let alone a ship named Enterprise? He must have kissed a lot of asses in the Admiralty...
Hands down, it has to be in Nemesis when Picard allows Data to reassemble B-4 and then to make matters worse allows Data to down load his own memory into the other android. Data is second officer on the Federation's flagship. His memory certainly contains classified material! Worf should have said one word to stop his Captain, "Lore!"
This absolute travesty of writing makes Picard look like a fool who doesn't have any knowledge of mission security or of his own ship's logs!
Couldn't have said it better myself...
One more charge and specification to add to the Picard court martial!
Worst Federation Captain ever!
Or Kirk. Always letting himself be captured or pinned down, always revealing himself to the natives and causing embarrassment to his superiors and complications to the organization he represents, always hesitating with decisive action until the worst possible moment. It's a miracle the man didn't cause more wars than he did.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
I dunno. I can defend Kirk easily, probably Esteban (who was ambused) and possibly Harriman, if I can resort to non-canon materials for him such as "Shakedown" and "The Captain's Daughter"; a short story and a novel respectively.
I could not in good conscience defend Picard.^1 He's just so guilty of criminal behavior on so many levels, its insane.
Just his violations of the temporal Prime Directive ought to get him locked up.
Worst Federation Captain ever!
^1 This is my opinion and personal perspective on the character expressed in harmless fun. It in no way reflects upon the very valid arguments that others might have for liking Patrick Stewart, the actor; or Jean Luc Picard, the character.
It does grow extremely annoying, though. In a real-world conversation, you would probably have gotten a fat lip already, and IMHO deservedly so. After all, it is self-evident that we all are here because we care about this particular fictional realm and its fictional characters, and you are repeatedly attacking one of these characters we care about.
The current sombrero craze is annoying, too, but at least it's not a direct attack against anything in particular. You are deliberately harming real people here.
Timo Saloniemi
The current sombrero craze is annoying, too, but at least it's not a direct attack against anything in particular. You are deliberately harming real people here.
Timo Saloniemi
Point taken. I will lay off the Picard jokes.
Much appreciated.
Amidst all of this, I've lost track: in your opinion, what was the absolute worst Picard decision? I'm having difficulty finding a favorite, as none of the decisions seems to meet all the criteria of a) having been a bad decision at the time, b) having major and lasting consequences, and c) having been avoidable. Thus, many rank among the "unbrilliant" - not good decisions, but largely neutral, and thus realistic rather than "heroic".
Timo Saloniemi
Amidst all of this, I've lost track: in your opinion, what was the absolute worst Picard decision? I'm having difficulty finding a favorite, as none of the decisions seems to meet all the criteria of a) having been a bad decision at the time, b) having major and lasting consequences, and c) having been avoidable. Thus, many rank among the "unbrilliant" - not good decisions, but largely neutral, and thus realistic rather than "heroic".
Timo Saloniemi
Well ticking off Q is the BAD Picard one. It goes directly to that notion of being a "careful insect" among giants that I discussed in the other thread about Romulans and Klingons in ST/TOS when we discussed how smug and arrogant Humans were?
Case:
1. Picard knows at the time that Q is capricious and mischievous as well as a master of space time and of tech that is virtually godlike. Therefore addressing Q, asserting that Humanity is ready for anything which Q could use to test them-in effect daring Q to prove him, Picard, personally wrong about that statement, is just downright stupid of that Federation captain, to the point of insanity.
2. Picard should by this time have learned that some of his stupid decisions and arrogant acts kill people. Much as I see arrogance in Kirk, I also see much prudence. Do you see Kirk show this kind of incompetence when he runs into Balok in "The Corbomite Maneuver"? How about when the Organians reveal themselves? How about when he cinfronts Trelane? The giants to whom Kirk talks, he shows courtesy, diplomacy and practical common sense, adapting to the situation as he finds it^1. Picard, with his petulance, angers a giant and puts the entire Human species at risk.
3. Enter then those supertechnology barbarians we discussed-the BORG-where he then botches that first Borg contact.
That fiasco, all by itself, with the subsequent Wolf 359 disaster makes a dandy Picard court martial with a nice big red bow, all ready to go for me to prosecute.
I cannot defend the man, Jean Luc Picard. He's guilty of committing preventable stupid criminal acts. Just reading Kirk's logs should have been sufficient precedent to guide him in not what to do.
Does Sisko make these kind of mistakes with the wormhole aliens or the Dominion? No. Does Sisko even make the mistakes Picard makes with the Cardies? No.
Does Janeway make those kinds of mistakes? She makes some lulus, but again, no; not even with species 8472. Only Picard is dumb enough to put Humanity at extinction risk like that. Treason is the charge, with numerous specifications to be levied. No wonder Starfleet doesn't think much of Jean Luc. He is the George Bush of Star Fleet.
^1 Don't forget Nomad, V'Ger, and the whale probe machine intelligences. There is also that "god" that Kirk meets at the center of the galaxy. I doubt that Kirk would have botched the first contacts with Tinman, Mister Inkblot, or the Edo Guardian, the way Picard does, either.
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I think the ticking off of Q fails criterion a): it wasn't a bad idea at the time.
Picard had confronted Q several times before "Q Who?", and had learned that the deity was not one to hold grudges, nor one to cause permanent damage to those he toyed with. And Q had appeared pleased when first Picard, then Riker resisted his offers, goadings and persuasions. Picard thought he had Q's number - and it wasn't a bad assumption.
As for arrogant actions killing people, that shouldn't feature too prominently in the decisions made by such crucial people as frontline starship captains. It's their job to take risks that occasionally get people killed, so that they can pursue the missions and policies entrusted in them. Securing freedom of operations for Starfleet, rather than becoming subservient to Q's limitations, would be Picard's mission.
Timo Saloniemi
Picard had confronted Q several times before "Q Who?", and had learned that the deity was not one to hold grudges, nor one to cause permanent damage to those he toyed with. And Q had appeared pleased when first Picard, then Riker resisted his offers, goadings and persuasions. Picard thought he had Q's number - and it wasn't a bad assumption.
As for arrogant actions killing people, that shouldn't feature too prominently in the decisions made by such crucial people as frontline starship captains. It's their job to take risks that occasionally get people killed, so that they can pursue the missions and policies entrusted in them. Securing freedom of operations for Starfleet, rather than becoming subservient to Q's limitations, would be Picard's mission.
Timo Saloniemi
When you play poker with a god, always recognize that you will be called. It is not a gamble that Picard has the right to make; not with those kinds of odds. In the previous examples cited, you have one on one testing, Q tests individual Human beings and that is the parameter and limit. The moment Picard says "We"; he usurps authority he does not have, and assumes a risk he has no legal right to assume. That goes to the heart of the treason charge against him-usurpation of legitimate authority. .
Arrogant or incompetent actions are precisely why we court martial military people. It goes to accountability. If through preventable acts or decisions that present knowledge allows the commander to make the correct judgment, that the commander does not correctly act or decide to make the judgment; then as a result of the commander's failure to act or decide, we can charge that the life, property and interests placed in the commander's care, he jeopardizes and/or destroys through his neglect. He is accountable for such crimes-criminally so.
Picard taunts Q. That is a preventable act in the light of the then available knowledge.
Picard exceeds his authority. He has no right to risk all of Humanity. None.
Picard allows himself to be taken alive by supertechnology barbarians, become subverted, and then let the STBs use him as an instrument against Humanity. That is perhaps the LAST straw and ultimate Picard command decision betrayal of his own species, putting his own personal survival ahead of the survival of Humanity.
He is a very poor captain.
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quote]The moment Picard says "We"; he usurps authority he does not have, and assumes a risk he has no legal right to assume.[/quote]
I cannot agree with this, not when Picard officially serves as the appointed representative of mankind to the stars, nor when in doing so, he merely follows in the deep footsteps of other Starfleet (or indeed real world) captains and leaders.
Kirk was always ready to use the royal "we", even insisting that "we" have the right to wage war in a situation where he was being offered a way for "us" to avoid war altogether. Janeway usually avoided the expression, as she had only 150 examples of mankind to represent, but the other captains embraced it.
Picard must have the right to tell uppity Gods to stay off the human lawn, as that is not only his personal task, but the task of the entire organization he serves. Agreed that his mandate is less explicit than that of the pathfinding Archer, who was sent out there principally to raise hell and make all sorts of people, gods and devils pay attention to Earth. But that's still what he should be doing, every chance he gets.
And how many captured generals have committed suicide in recent history? Apart from the Japanese, none. Some German ones killed themselves when humiliated or placed against impossible odds, but none at capture or for counterintelligence reasons. For the Japanese, their hyper-complicated deployment plans were more important than for any of the other players, largely because of their poor communications and sensing technology and lack of material resources and reserves - yet the key personnel versed in these plans were quite lax in destroying records, let alone killing themselves. The reasons for suicides were almost entirely unique cultural ones there.
Preemptive suicide is utter fantasy in the real militaries, and typically in the intelligence communities as well. It has never been the Starfleet way, either - Kirk was particularly "cowardly" in this respect, flat out refusing to even consider suicide when the fate of mankind hinged on him blowing up his ship that had been turned into a courier of doom in "By Any Other Name".
Also, no court martial has ever been held over the failure of an officer to kill himself in the so-called western countries. And while such things were routine in Stalin's Soviet Union, the motivations were not related to the need to keep secrets from the enemy.
Your argumentation thus seems contradictory here: on one hand, Picard should show subservience to Gods (against the interests of Earth), and on the other, he should consider himself Godlike enough that he should consider taking his own life when captured by the enemy (again against the interests of Earth, as in the role of captive he could continue to champion the Earthling cause).
Timo Saloniemi
I cannot agree with this, not when Picard officially serves as the appointed representative of mankind to the stars, nor when in doing so, he merely follows in the deep footsteps of other Starfleet (or indeed real world) captains and leaders.
Kirk was always ready to use the royal "we", even insisting that "we" have the right to wage war in a situation where he was being offered a way for "us" to avoid war altogether. Janeway usually avoided the expression, as she had only 150 examples of mankind to represent, but the other captains embraced it.
Picard must have the right to tell uppity Gods to stay off the human lawn, as that is not only his personal task, but the task of the entire organization he serves. Agreed that his mandate is less explicit than that of the pathfinding Archer, who was sent out there principally to raise hell and make all sorts of people, gods and devils pay attention to Earth. But that's still what he should be doing, every chance he gets.
And how many captured generals have committed suicide in recent history? Apart from the Japanese, none. Some German ones killed themselves when humiliated or placed against impossible odds, but none at capture or for counterintelligence reasons. For the Japanese, their hyper-complicated deployment plans were more important than for any of the other players, largely because of their poor communications and sensing technology and lack of material resources and reserves - yet the key personnel versed in these plans were quite lax in destroying records, let alone killing themselves. The reasons for suicides were almost entirely unique cultural ones there.
Preemptive suicide is utter fantasy in the real militaries, and typically in the intelligence communities as well. It has never been the Starfleet way, either - Kirk was particularly "cowardly" in this respect, flat out refusing to even consider suicide when the fate of mankind hinged on him blowing up his ship that had been turned into a courier of doom in "By Any Other Name".
Also, no court martial has ever been held over the failure of an officer to kill himself in the so-called western countries. And while such things were routine in Stalin's Soviet Union, the motivations were not related to the need to keep secrets from the enemy.
Your argumentation thus seems contradictory here: on one hand, Picard should show subservience to Gods (against the interests of Earth), and on the other, he should consider himself Godlike enough that he should consider taking his own life when captured by the enemy (again against the interests of Earth, as in the role of captive he could continue to champion the Earthling cause).
Timo Saloniemi
Not in the intel community - Francis Gary Powers *was* issued a suicide pill, and took no small amount of criticism for not using it when the Soviets captured him.
Just think that should be noted.
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