Picard's worst choice?

[Borg451]

He would certainly have caused less damage to that civilization if he had sent down an armed party to blast Wesley out of the gaol.

Then again, the damage he did wasn't particularly relevant: it questioned an old sanctions system that had already done its job by eradicating all crime. While the system might have been needed back in the mists of Edo history, it was useless at the time of the E-D visit and its loss (if indeed the Edo God upheld its decision to end the practice) was not a big one.

It doesn't seem to me that Picard would really regret any of the choices he made on screen, during the seven years, except for one: not caving in to Q in "Q Who?". But he wouldn't have known of the consequences before making the choice (earlier on, defying this deity had carried no penalty), and he might also see benefits in what transpired.

Timo Saloniemi

jail

 

[HRHTheKING]

in "Justice" they should have just beamed Wesley off the planet and told them to screw off.

They couldn't, because that big space station god thingy would have blocked their transporters.

Really, they shouldn't have been on that planet at all.

Surely, contact with a backward civilisation apparently without advanced technology who spend their days getting executed and shagging each other, is a violation of the prime directive.

 

[Danoz]

Nikolai Rozhenko was 100% correct in trying to rescue those people and their culture, and Picard was willing to let their entire civilization be eradicated because of a document, an abstraction.

Poor moment for Picard.

Also, when they needed the medication in "The First Duty" they should have taken it without question-- and in "Justice" they should have just beamed Wesley off the planet and told them to screw off.

Uh, I think you mean 'Code of Honor' with the medication thing - First Duty was the Starfleet Academy episode. (And, you know, it was actually a GOOD episode...)

I do agree with you, though, about Homeward. It's a small number of people, all of whom are going to die, and he'll let them for the sake of some directive, prime or not, that says 'thou shalt not interfere'? Definitely not Picard's shining moment.

Ah, you're right. I swapped the episode titles by accident...

 

[Danoz]

in "Justice" they should have just beamed Wesley off the planet and told them to screw off.

They couldn't, because that big space station god thingy would have blocked their transporters.

Really, they shouldn't have been on that planet at all.

Surely, contact with a backward civilisation apparently without advanced technology who spend their days getting executed and shagging each other, is a violation of the prime directive.

Good call.

 

[Danoz]

Earl Grey

LOL It is pretty vile... I'll second this motion.

I drink Earl Grey at least once a day.

 

[T'Cal]

Not pursuing Beverly sooner. He was a coward for not making a move sooner.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Worst choice?

I felt he tucked tail and gave in to the Xenophobic aliens in "Clues" pretty quiickly.

But they broke Worf's wrist. I mean, that's pretty tough. Gotta let 'em fuck with your heads after that.

 

[Trekker4747]

Worst choice?

I felt he tucked tail and gave in to the Xenophobic aliens in "Clues" pretty quiickly.

But they broke Worf's wrist. I mean, that's pretty tough. Gotta let 'em fuck with your heads after that.

Well, "they" whle posessing Troi's body but it's probably worth noting that Worf has low bone densty brought on by a substantial lack of calcium in his diet. I know. I saw his medical records.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

How about when Picard, for no apparent reason, made first contact with the Edo, a pre-warp civilization, in "Justice" ???

Also, driving around on that pre-warp planet in Nemesis wasn't such a good idea either imo.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Also, driving around on that pre-warp planet in Nemesis wasn't such a good idea either imo.

Actually, driving around was the smartest thing on that away mission. The driving technology was equal to theirs, so at face value at least, there's nothing to question.

At the same time, there's positronic tech on the surface. That right there screams all bets are off.

 

[Gil T.Azell]

....
3- Making Admiral Necheyev angry

I think Admiral Necheyev was born angry?? her e-mail signature probably says
Link

 

[Timo]

How about when Picard, for no apparent reason, made first contact with the Edo, a pre-warp civilization, in "Justice" ???

Umm, we don't know that the Edo would be pre-warp. Or that Picard made contact. For all we know, once our heroes were done with that colonization mission, they flew close enough to Edo that the locals decided to call them by subspace radio. "Why don't you come over? Our previous alien visitors have always been satisfied with their stay here."

Saying yes to that would be no more a PD violation than paying a visit to the Halkans, or Capellans, or Argelians, or Gideonites, folks with little interest in space travel but full knowledge that others do that sort of stuff.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

I knew that something had gone horribly wrong with Gene Roddenberry the moment Jean-Luc Picard unconditionally surrendered the cool half of the E-D to a mysterious, belligerent alien force without the ship suffering so much as a scratch in Encounter at Farpoint. Speaking of mysterious and hostile alien forces, Picard happily letting the Paxans screw around - repeatedly! - with his brain as well as the brains of his crew and passengers in Clues didn't exactly strike me as an inspired example of heroic leadership in the aftermath of a failed first contact. What was to stop these (admittedly sympathetic) recluses from finally losing their patience with a bunch of starfaring chimpanzees who refused to take a hint? Needless to say, I was amazed that the Paxans didn't just implant in Geordi a subconscious compulsion to "accidentally" short out the Enterprise's anti-matter containment system a couple of days after the ship departed their nebula for the nth time.

TGT

 

[Timo]

Oh, I don't know about those. TOS originally got off to a good start when the leading hero displayed cowardice by refusing to respond to an SOS. Once the decision had been made, it was pretty obvious it was the right one. Similarly, nothing would have been won by Picard fighting back, as is obvious now that we know more of the Q. But even by the evidence Picard had gathered so far, he would have had every reason to believe that resisting with weapons would have been less likely to succeed than resisting by prostrating oneself on the enemy's path and then throwing a speech.

As for "Clues", what alternatives were there? It is to Picard's credit that he came up with this option to certain death at all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Oh, I don't know about those. TOS originally got off to a good start when the leading hero displayed cowardice by refusing to respond to an SOS. Once the decision had been made, it was pretty obvious it was the right one.

What cowardice? Pike merely assumed (correctly, it must be noted) that the SS Columbia survivors who sent that distress signal were long dead.

Similarly, nothing would have been won by Picard fighting back, as is obvious now that we know more of the Q. But even by the evidence Picard had gathered so far, he would have had every reason to believe that resisting with weapons would have been less likely to succeed than resisting by prostrating oneself on the enemy's path and then throwing a speech.

According to Rene Grousset's The Empire of the Steppes, the Mongols were noted for slowly barbecuing over open fires enemy soldiers who were captured running away from the battlefield, while those who fought valiantly were either quickly and honorably dispatched by a Mongol officer or - if they fought spectacularly well - were given a horse and a polite invitation to show up at the next scheduled battle. How did Picard know that the Q did not have a similar perspective concerning the appropriate way to treat POWs in EaF?

As for "Clues", what alternatives were there?

Corbomite? A shoot-their-way-out-of-Dodge display of chintzy early 1990s CGI? Something? Anything?!

It is to Picard's credit that he came up with this option to certain death at all.

So if the Paxans demanded one night with Dr. Beverly Crusher in return for safe passage Picard should have gratefully accepted their magnanimous offer on her behalf? Please. To quote a popular German saying on the Eastern Front during WWII, far better a horrible end than an endless horror (or in this case endless embarrassment).

TGT

 

[Timo]

What cowardice? Pike merely assumed (correctly, it must be noted) that the SS Columbia survivors who sent that distress signal were long dead.

Which by the traditional rules of seafaring is cowardice, while being ultimately rational - just like refusing to step into machine gun fire is. Courage or heroism seldom requires brainwork, really.

How did Picard know that the Q did not have a similar perspective concerning the proper way to treat POWs in EaF?

That wouldn't have altered his tactics. He already knew Q was capable of superior magic when it came to chasing and killing. He set out to delay Q. His choice, then, already was to expend the personnel of the battle section - and if that meant having all of them slowly barbequed, all the better. The slower they ripened, the more time the saucer would have to get away.

So if the Paxans demanded one night with Dr. Beverly Crusher in return for safe passage Picard should have gratefully accepted their magnanimous offer on her behalf? Please.

So you are willing to accept logical callousness from Pike, but not from Picard?

Orangutanesque posturing on the vein of "something, anything" would just establish Picard as a creature incapable of rational thought. And apologies to all of the surviving orange-furred cuties out there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Which by the traditional rules of seafaring is cowardice, while being ultimately rational - just like refusing to step into machine gun fire is. Courage or heroism seldom requires brainwork, really.

Izzat so? How often during the Age of Sail did naval commanders abandon their assigned missions to go rescuing almost certainly deceased shipwrecked sailors who may have tossed a bottled message into the ocean eighteen years earlier?

That wouldn't have altered his tactics. He already knew Q was capable of superior magic when it came to chasing and killing. He set out to delay Q. His choice, then, already was to expend the personnel of the battle section - and if that meant having all of them slowly barbequed, all the better. The slower they ripened, the more time the saucer would have to get away.

The Q-Ball was able to catch the E-D's stardrive section without any apparent difficulty, so if Picard's assumptions concerning the alien's psychology turned out to be incorrect the inhabitants of the presumably slower saucer would have made for a tasty main course after the battle section's entrée.

So you are willing to accept logical callousness from Pike, but not from Picard?

I naturally dispute your assertion that there was any meaningful symmetry in their respective actions. After all, nobody on the E-D's battle bridge plied JLP with martinis while trying desperately to convince him that waving a holographic white flag was The Right Thing To Do. If nothing else GR could have at least avoided putting Picard in a situation like this during the show's goddamned premiere.

Orangutanesque posturing on the vein of "something, anything" would just establish Picard as a creature incapable of rational thought. And apologies to all of the surviving orange-furred cuties out there.

I would hardly call offering yourself - and your underlings - up for brain surgery to privacy-obsessed aliens a "rational" act. Fudge, were I a Paxan I would have programmed the NCC-1701-D's crew to return to UFP territory and provoke an interstellar war with the Klingons / Romulans / Cardassian / Breen / Whomever to save myself from further unwelcome visitors originating from that particular neighborhood, even if it is only for a few centuries.

TGT

 

[Timo]

The Q-Ball was able to catch the E-D's stardrive section without any apparent difficulty, so if Picard's assumptions concerning the alien's psychology turned out to be incorrect the inhabitants of the presumably slower saucer would have made for a tasty main course after the battle section's entrée.

Exactly. So if Picard guessed right, the situation would be improved, and if Picard guessed wrong (but in the specific manner where Q doesn't stop to torment his captives despite loathing them for having become captives), things would take the same course they would have taken if Picard had tried armed resistance. No point, then, in trying to fire at the Q-ball, which didn't look as if it would respond to such conventional attentions anyway.

Firing as an empty gesture of defiance would establish Picard as a brainless brute similar to Kirk (who, after finding out that the Galactic Barrier killed starships, ordered his own ship right in), and we'd get Andromeda, only with a bit more Hercules there. A despicable character by 1980s sensibilities, and unsurprisingly so. In contrast, a rare demonstration of intelligence was the sort of a surprise that helps nascent TV series gain a reputation. (And there's no such thing as a bad reputation in the business anyway.)

I naturally dispute your assertion that there was any meaningful symmetry in their respective actions. After all, nobody on the E-D's battle bridge plied JLP with martinis while trying desperately to convince him that waving a holographic white flag was The Right Thing To Do.

Umm, Boyce wasn't concerned much with the ship's mission or Pike's related decisions - he was just boozing with his skipper for unrelated, personal reasons and decisions. As far as the actual plot-driving events went, Pike's and Picard's unconsulted, surprise displays of calm rationality in face of developments that unnerved the rest of the crew were quite comparable.

I would hardly call offering yourself - and your underlings - up for brain surgery to privacy-obsessed aliens a "rational" act.

Apparently, no harm was done, though. Why would Picard need to feel irrational apprehension at brain surgery, when he's a civilized man well versed in modern medicine, and has found agreement when consulting his resident medical specialists and master tacticians?

And why should our hero take the isolationist Paxans as a menace to the entire universe? With such a mindset, Picard should always have been following a first contact procedure wherein the target planet is first melted all the way down to the mantle, a friendly hail is then sent, and if there is a response, the planet is vaporized all the way down to the core.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CaptainStoner]

If you ask me, the choice to save the Crusher boy from the Edo was not right back then, is not right today and will never be right. Jean-Luc messed up an entire civilization just for one boy.
But then, that's just me. I think Jean-Luc would have another opinion. Unfortunately. *lol*

Yes but that is a Star Trek theme also. The occasional inversion of the needs of the many and the one. The PD is a good aspiration to hold but there are times even a Picard, much less a Kirk, just has to say to hell with it. Sometimes a civilization needs to get messed up.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Picard allowed Wesley to go into that Edo situation; he was responsible for Wes's life. If anything Picard should've taken the death penalty in Wesley's place. Who's at fault if you let your dog out and it digs up the neighbour's garden?