Picard's Borg remnants?

[Nerys Ghemor]

Do forgive me if this question has been asked already...what I was wondering is this.

Did we ever find out what, if any, Borg technology might have been left inside Picard after his assimilation? Does he inwardly have some of the same characteristics of, say, Seven of Nine? Or if not, what is the explanation of his ability to intercept signals from the Collective?

 

[Kaziarl]

Thats something I've wondered myself, but I wonder if it's not so much technological as it is biological. They had to do some serious re-wiring of his brain to get his mind to function in the collective, and it's possible that some of that effect still lingers. I also think it's more of a "sense" then it is an intercept. Kind of like if you've been around someone for a long time, you can almost "sense" what their thinking.

 

[Xerxes1979]

I like to think it was a latent telepathic link like Chakotay in Unity.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I like to think they were able to remove 100% of the Borg technology from his body due to him being in the Collective for such a short period of time, as opposed to Seven of Nine.

As for his sensing the Collective's thoughts, I also think it was some form of latent telepathic link.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

What exactly would be the cause of the telepathic link, then? If his brain was actually altered, wouldn't that have been picked up by a medical exam? (Or WAS it, and was that why he was initially not sent to the front lines during the Battle of Sector 001?)

 

[Tom Riley]

Uncertain to say. They never mentioned it, but that could definitely be one explanation. A workable one at that.

 

[USS Triumphant]

(Or WAS it, and was that why he was initially not sent to the front lines during the Battle of Sector 001?)

I second this, but it has made me wonder why they let him keep a command at all. I sure as hell wouldn't have. Assimilated by the Borg and had them all through your head? Yeah, so, you'll be going home to the vineyards, now, and we'll be putting security protocols in place to keep you off of any of our ships or bases. We may send someone to ask you questions and take scans of you from time to time.

 

[I am not Spock]

The only thing I remember is that he could still 'hear' the Collective in First Contact. Other than that, I think they managed to get all of the components out of his system.

Which makes the aftermath of Janeway, Tuvok, and B'Elanna's assimilation in Unimatrix Zero part one rather ridiculous. But that's a story for another thread.

 

[Anwar]

They were never mentally assimilated (hell, likely the idea for their resistance drugs came from studying Picard's de-assimilation), and weren't assimilated very long physically either.

I do agree, it was bizarre none of them had any of their limbs and such removed during assimilation (but then again, neither did Picard or Seven).

 

[Kaziarl]

They were never mentally assimilated (hell, likely the idea for their resistance drugs came from studying Picard's de-assimilation), and weren't assimilated very long physically either.

I do agree, it was bizarre none of them had any of their limbs and such removed during assimilation (but then again, neither did Picard or Seven).

I could have sworn they talked about 7's arm being a borg prosthetic that was just made to look like a normal arm once they got her out. Hence why it still had the metal glove looking thing on it. But I could be wrong.

 

[PorthosShadow]

(Or WAS it, and was that why he was initially not sent to the front lines during the Battle of Sector 001?)

I second this, but it has made me wonder why they let him keep a command at all. I sure as hell wouldn't have. Assimilated by the Borg and had them all through your head? Yeah, so, you'll be going home to the vineyards, now, and we'll be putting security protocols in place to keep you off of any of our ships or bases. We may send someone to ask you questions and take scans of you from time to time.

I like to think that phycology and medicine have come a long way by the 24th century. It's probably safe to say that Starfleet medical didn't simply remove all the Borg implants and clear him for duty. I think it was probably at least a few good months in between BOBW I & "Family". Also, I like to believe that humans are better able to cope with terrible situations a little bit faster.

Obviously, Picard was changed forever by the experience but he didn't let it destroy him. But all that being said, it might have been nice to see the fall out in a few more episodes.

 

[Red Ranger]

As I recall, in Best of Both Worlds, II, Beverly says something about how without the link to the Collective, she could remove the Borg technology, as it was just a matter of microsurgery. But it certainly seems there was some kind of mental residual link to the Borg in Picard's head, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to sense them in First Contact. It's an interesting question.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

(Or WAS it, and was that why he was initially not sent to the front lines during the Battle of Sector 001?)

I second this, but it has made me wonder why they let him keep a command at all. I sure as hell wouldn't have. Assimilated by the Borg and had them all through your head? Yeah, so, you'll be going home to the vineyards, now, and we'll be putting security protocols in place to keep you off of any of our ships or bases. We may send someone to ask you questions and take scans of you from time to time.

Yeah, that's kind of what had me wondering--that unless the latent connection was something he had JUST discovered during FC, why he wasn't relieved of duty as a potential security threat. (And why he wasn't AFTER FC...I wonder if it's something like the Kirk effect--political favor keeping him from getting fired?)

 

[USS Triumphant]

Yeah, that's kind of what had me wondering--that unless the latent connection was something he had JUST discovered during FC, why he wasn't relieved of duty as a potential security threat.

The mental link definitely makes the situation worse, but even if they did remove every trace of the Borg from Picard, I would still think that the fact that the Borg had had the opportunity to go through everything in Picard's head would mean that he is too compromised to retain a command or, really, any access to sensitive Starfleet materials.

Humanity must be a lot scarcer for some reason in the 24th century that we would generally think, and Starfleet in much more desparate need of personnel, because Riker seemed to be doing well enough in BOBW. If I were the Admiralty, I'd have left him in the big chair. (And given how I loathe Riker, that's saying something. )

 

[Kaziarl]

From a writing perspective, they probably just didn't want to get rid of the character, which I can understand.

From an in universe perspective I'm kinda seeing it like this:
Military officers today potentially experience varying levels of torture, and most of the time can be helped through the trauma and return to duty (I think... I'm no military expert)
Now, granted, Picard went through an unimaginable trauma, but perhaps they honestly thought he had been rehabilitated. If the "Voices" didn't manifest themselves until the borg once again returned to that area of space, they're might not have been any red flags.

"Oh, parts of his brain are mush now."
"But other then that he seems ok?"
"Yes."
"Alright, lets put him back on duty. Oh, and see if you kind find one of those S31 guys to keep an eye on him... just in case."

Sure, not a very strong plot, but it could work.

 

[USS Triumphant]

From a writing perspective, they probably just didn't want to get rid of the character, which I can understand.

This, I get - but it becomes a little difficult to justify in-universe, since...

Military officers today potentially experience varying levels of torture, and most of the time can be helped through the trauma and return to duty (I think... I'm no military expert

...while this is mostly true, it doesn't compare to what happened to Picard in one important aspect. For all Starfleet knew, the Borg had a copy of the contents and structure of Picard's brain. Effectively, for all they knew, the Borg could have "run" a copy of Picard like a program, and known with a high degree of certainly what Picard was likely to do at any given moment.

Of course, to counter my own argument, Starfleet has a history of doing out-security BS like this - like returning Kirk to duty after he was switched with Janice Lester, or Chekov after his mind was compromised by Khan, or Spock after he had his brain out and connected to an alien computer. Or ANY of the TOS crew except Kirk and Spock after Sybok got them to go along with mutiny by playing in their heads. Of course, I guess in all those cases, a Vulcan mental expert could have certified them clear of influence. So here's another one: Letting Data stay in Starfleet (or powered on, for that matter) after he singlehandedly took over the ship due to programming he was unaware of, and has no idea whether or not there could be more of.

If space exploration in the Star Trek universe was Serious Business, Starfleet would be hosed.

 

[Kaziarl]

From a writing perspective, they probably just didn't want to get rid of the character, which I can understand.

This, I get - but it becomes a little difficult to justify in-universe, since...

Military officers today potentially experience varying levels of torture, and most of the time can be helped through the trauma and return to duty (I think... I'm no military expert

...while this is mostly true, it doesn't compare to what happened to Picard in one important aspect. For all Starfleet knew, the Borg had a copy of the contents and structure of Picard's brain. Effectively, for all they knew, the Borg could have "run" a copy of Picard like a program, and known with a high degree of certainly what Picard was likely to do at any given moment.

Of course, to counter my own argument, Starfleet has a history of doing out-security BS like this - like returning Kirk to duty after he was switched with Janice Lester, or Chekov after his mind was compromised by Khan, or Spock after he had his brain out and connected to an alien computer. Or ANY of the TOS crew except Kirk and Spock after Sybok got them to go along with mutiny by playing in their heads. Of course, I guess in all those cases, a Vulcan mental expert could have certified them clear of influence. So here's another one: Letting Data stay in Starfleet (or powered on, for that matter) after he singlehandedly took over the ship due to programming he was unaware of, and has no idea whether or not there could be more of.

If space exploration in the Star Trek universe was Serious Business, Starfleet would be hosed.

I agree that what picard went through was of a significantly different level, I even said as much right after the spot you cut my post off at. However, at the same time we really haven't seen ANYTHING of 24th century psychology. If that part, (hearing the voices) didn't manifest itself unless there were borg around, for all they knew maybe he was ok. And by Borg, I mean members of the collective, not separated borg. I think the crucial part of this that makes it work is the overwhelming force of the borg consciousness.

 

[T'Girl]

They were never mentally assimilated (hell, likely the idea for their resistance drugs came from studying Picard's de-assimilation), and weren't assimilated very long physically either.

I do agree, it was bizarre none of them had any of their limbs and such removed during assimilation (but then again, neither did Picard or Seven).

One of Seven's eyes was replaced with a borg device. And I seem to remember from Timeless that the majority of Seven's skull was metal and half of her brain was artificial.

 

[Penta]

I am always more than a little amused when people talk about how 24th Century psychology must be so much more advanced. Certainly the stigma about mental health care might be gone, but I don't see reason to believe that psychological/psychiatric treatment is all that much advanced from where we stand IRL.

The brutal reality is that any advancement in psych care is likely to be highly incremental. Why?

1. There are a much wider variety of patients. The patient-therapist interaction is already complex and messy and weird with just two humans. Imagine how screwed up it'd be when your shrink could just as easily be a Vulcan or a Betazoid. And, for lack of a better word, half-breeds. Mixed-species pairings, and xeopsychology, would take up a lot of the treatment resources that would go to ordinary human problems.

2. For all the good psych drugs do (and they do a lot of good), they work on the first try maybe a third of the time. Talk therapy, for what its worth, can only do so much, too. I just don't think the science is there that would bring the effectiveness rate to higher than fifty percent.

 

[Timo]

On the technical side of things, I'd argue that Picard's blood was still saturated with nanotech after Crusher had removed everything she could see.

Standard Borg assimilation may include the grafting on of macroscopic implants, but much of the cyborg technology is probably constructed in situ, by and out of the nanostuff in the blood. There might be a lot of dormant nanogoo in even an active Drone, and Picard could have been loaded with the stuff - which would, at the correct cue, construct a (temporary?) subspace transceiver inside him for Collective communications.

Timo Saloniemi