Picard (series) did Elnor and Laris dirty!

[Brainsucker]

Blinks in Worf, especially on First Contact or Picard Season 3.

That's why I said, if only Elnor has more than what he has in Picard season 1 and 2, like what Worf has. Elnor is a pure swordman. And a swordman has no purpose in Star Trek, but his character has more in Star Wars type story.

And for Worf, unlike Elnor, his swordmanship is basically can be categorized as a hobby, not his core identity as a character. Worf is more than a swordman, or a warrior. He has everything that a Star Trek character should has. That's why he can blend into the story so well, unlike Elnor.

 

[fireproof78]

That's why I said, if only Elnor has more than what he has in Picard season 1 and 2, like what Worf has. Elnor is a pure swordman. And a swordman has no purpose in Star Trek, but his character has more in Star Wars type story.

And for Worf, unlike Elnor, his swordmanship is basically can be categorized as a hobby, not his core identity as a character. Worf is more than a swordman, or a warrior. He has everything that a Star Trek character should has. That's why he can blend into the story so well, unlike Elnor.

I think he has more that just wasn't used. What was Worf in Season 1?

 

[Brainsucker]

I think he has more that just wasn't used. What was Worf in Season 1?

Worf is a capable spaceman, while Elnor is a pure sword man. There is a place for Worf in every story when he was appeared, even without his sword and his warrior wet-dream. But what can Elnor do without his sword in Picard season 1?

The problem is there is very limited thing that a sword can do in Star Trek. Specially when the sword can't beat phaser like what the Jedi do with their light saber.

 

[fireproof78]

Worf is a capable spaceman, while Elnor is a pure sword man. There is a place for Worf in every story when he was appeared, even without his sword and his warrior wet-dream. But what can Elnor do without his sword in Picard season 1?

Ideally? Learn and grow.

It's a failure of writing not of character.

 

[Brainsucker]

Ideally? Learn and grow.

It's a failure of writing not of character.

Actually, the character is the basis on how good the writing can be. A good character can make a good writing. Elnor is an out of place character in Star Trek type genre story.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually, the character is the basis on how good the writing can be. A good character can make a good writing. Elnor is an out of place character in Star Trek type genre story.

Agree to disagree. I think if you can have Worf you can have Elnor. You have to be willing to dive in to their culture, what drives them and compliment it with other characters.

Elnor is a thinner character, but so was Worf at the beginning too, just the requisite brute strength and growl.

 

[Brainsucker]

Agree to disagree. I think if you can have Worf you can have Elnor. You have to be willing to dive in to their culture, what drives them and compliment it with other characters.

Elnor is a thinner character, but so was Worf at the beginning too, just the requisite brute strength and growl.

It is not about how thin or fat the character is. The point is Elnor doesn't has any ability beside his swordmanship, while Worf is more versatile and capable to handle any problem in Star Trek setting story. So Worf can contribute to any problem solving scenario in any Star Trek story. While Elnor is not. With his set of skill, there is only limited problem solving scenario that Elnor can enter. Thus limiting his character growth, or even his appearance, as his character is basically not needed in many things in the story.

You must remember, Star Trek Picard is all about Picard. The story is about Picard problem, and his side characters, like Elnor and Worl are basically just his tools to solve the problem in the story. Worf can engage in any scenario when Picard face any problem in the story, while Elnor has to step aside because he doesn't has anything to offer. Thus limiting his appearance, and more importantly, his character growth. Because there are so many problem that can't be solve with sword in Star Trek.

That's why I said that Elnor is an out of place character for Star Trek as a story. Specially Star Trek Picard.

 

[fireproof78]

It is not about how thin or fat the character is. The point is Elnor doesn't has any ability beside his swordmanship, while Worf is more versatile and capable to handle any problem in Star Trek setting story. So Worf can contribute to any problem solving scenario in any Star Trek story. While Elnor is not. With his set of skill, there is only limited problem solving scenario that Elnor can enter. Thus limiting his character growth, or even his appearance, as his character is basically not needed in many things in the story.

You must remember, Star Trek Picard is all about Picard. The story is about Picard problem, and his side characters, like Elnor and Worl are basically just his tools to solve the problem in the story. Worf can engage in any scenario when Picard face any problem in the story, while Elnor has to step aside because he doesn't has anything to offer. Thus limiting his appearance, and more importantly, his character growth. Because there are so many problem that can't be solve with sword in Star Trek.

I'll again disagree because I think he can learn. Again I think of Worf who growled a lot of commented on honor.

Yes, it's related to Picard, but that's the whole damn point! Picard had a connection to Romulus and could have used it like he did to expand Worf's character with Klingon culture.

Elnor is only sword guy because the writers said so. Worf became more than growling guy because the writers decided him being a terrible father, a disowned Klingon, and a champion of all things Klingon was interesting enough to write.

 

[Detached Nacelle]

It is not about how thin or fat the character is. The point is Elnor doesn't has any ability beside his swordmanship, while Worf is more versatile and capable to handle any problem in Star Trek setting story. So Worf can contribute to any problem solving scenario in any Star Trek story. While Elnor is not. With his set of skill, there is only limited problem solving scenario that Elnor can enter. Thus limiting his character growth, or even his appearance, as his character is basically not needed in many things in the story.

See I would argue this was largely the point of Elnor he was forced to grow up in a sect that would never allow a man to truly be one of them. His biggest role model was a man who admitted to disliking children, vanished for 14 years and then died in front of him albeit temporarily. He was then admitted into Starfleet and was forced to learn who he really was and where his strengths were as opposed to doing the only thing available to him because he had no choice and being looked down on for it. Elnor was part of the way through a potentially huge and impactful story arc which was then denied to us.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I liked Elnor. An interesting character with potential. Don't get the "Swordsman" complaint or why it doesn't fit with Star Trek.

 

[Brainsucker]

I'll again disagree because I think he can learn. Again I think of Worf who growled a lot of commented on honor.

Yes, it's related to Picard, but that's the whole damn point! Picard had a connection to Romulus and could have used it like he did to expand Worf's character with Klingon culture.

Elnor is only sword guy because the writers said so. Worf became more than growling guy because the writers decided him being a terrible father, a disowned Klingon, and a champion of all things Klingon was interesting enough to write.

Point 1: Yes, he can learn, but the problem is, he doesn't has the room for that. Star Trek Picard solely dedicated to Picard, not Elnor. Thus, without any skill, Elnor doesn't has any chance to grow. he can only do with whatever he has at the point of the story.

Point 2: Once again, where is the room for him to grow? There is none. Because the problem that he face at the time of the story require more than what he possess at the time. That's why he didn't has the room to shine, or even to grow, or to be relevant in the story. He can grow, just like Jake or Nog, if ST Picard is an episodic story like DS9 where Elnor can has his own plot without interfering the main story (Picard story). But no. Picard needs a winning team to handle his problem. Not to baby sit a young boy without any skill like him.

Point 3: This is the point where you don't understand. Writers have limitation. They can't cross them without any believe-able excuse. Elnor can't suddenly become an Ace Pilot like Riker, or super Scientist like Spock. His character already set into stone when they create his character at the planning phase. He can change, or grow. That's what we call as "Character Development". But if only there is a room for the character development phase in his story. The problem is, he doesn't has that. That's why he can only relevant in the story based on what he has from the beginning of the season. And this is Elnor problem. he doesn't has anything to offer to contribute into the story.

Just look at Picard S2 E1, where Picard call all the casts to discuss about the Borg problem. Where's Elnor? Does he relevant to the problem that Picard face? Nope. He's no where. Because he's not relevant to the problem that Picard face at that time. So how can Elnor even fit in the story at all? Nope. He's out of the place character; to an extend that the writers has great difficulty to bring his character into the table.

 

[Brainsucker]

I liked Elnor. An interesting character with potential. Don't get the "Swordsman" complaint or why it doesn't fit with Star Trek.

In a story that I read some time ago, the main character ask about this,"China has 1 billions people, more than any country in the world, except India. Compared to Netherland, a tiny country in Europe, China is huge. But how could their national football club can't even enter the World Cup final even once in our life time?

The answer is, because Chinese Messi and Chinese Ronaldo work in a factory some where in the country, and never touch soccer ball or even join a club in their life.

It just the same. Even if a character has a huge potential, without any room for it, they'll be useless or pointless.

 

[fireproof78]

Just look at Picard S2 E1, where Picard call all the casts to discuss about the Borg problem. Where's Elnor? Does he relevant to the problem that Picard face? Nope. He's no where. Because he's not relevant to the problem that Picard face at that time. So how can Elnor even fit in the story at all? Nope. He's out of the place character; to an extend that the writers has great difficulty to bring his character into the table.

Which is poor writing because he had some experience with the Borg in Season 1.

Season 1, as much as I enjoy it, tried to focus on too many problems for Picard instead of just the Romulans. I think they could have done more with his connection to Romulus through Elnor and done more with the character.

There was space; it was taken up by something else.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In a story that I read some time ago, the main character ask about this,"China has 1 billions people, more than any country in the world, except India. Compared to Netherland, a tiny country in Europe, China is huge. But how could their national football club can't even enter the World Cup final even once in our life time?

The answer is, because Chinese Messi and Chinese Ronaldo work in a factory some where in the country, and never touch soccer ball or even join a club in their life.

It just the same. Even if a character has a huge potential, without any room for it, they'll be useless or pointless.

More like they benched Elnor in the second game for no good reason.

 

[Noname Given]

Worf is a capable spaceman, while Elnor is a pure sword man. There is a place for Worf in every story when he was appeared, even without his sword and his warrior wet-dream. But what can Elnor do without his sword in Picard season 1?

The problem is there is very limited thing that a sword can do in Star Trek. Specially when the sword can't beat phaser like what the Jedi do with their light saber.

Yeah, Worf was so 'capable' he was routinely up by almost every alien that beamed onto the 1701-D (including an alien controlled 80+ year old Admiral )

(Yeah, the TNG writers always used Worf as a crutch to show an intruder was "dangerous" but it was still poor writing in most cases.)

 

[fireproof78]

Also, Klingons regularly still use the words in a phaser fight:

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[Artoo Atari]

Yeah, Worf was so 'capable' he was routinely up by almost every alien that beamed onto the 1701-D (including an alien controlled 80+ year old Admiral )

(Yeah, the TNG writers always used Worf as a crutch to show an intruder was "dangerous" but it was still poor writing in most cases.)

Exactly. On the TVTropes website, this is actually referred to as "The Worf Effect." It basically describes what you pointed out above. If the writers choose too often to show the threat level of an enemy by having them beat up the "strong" character, after a while that character no longer appears to be that strong.

"Whoa, these guys must be strong! They just beat up Worf!"
"Big deal. Worf gets the crap beat outta him every other episode."

 

[fireproof78]

 

[Nerys Myk]

Elnor would have sliced that barrel in half.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Elnor would have sliced that barrel in half.

But only after asking it to "choose to live".