Picard...checking privilege?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by RAMA, May 21, 2020.

  1. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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  2. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    Sigh...........the word white is used ZERO times in the piece. I think the writer is using privilege definition to show how Picard champions the plight of various groups over his career he's always been able to beam back to his ship and not had to walk in their shoes. This is shown in Absolute Candor when he leaves Vasti and Elnor, not returning for 15 years. I think it did him good to be humbled by Starfleet and seeing that his actions or inactions have a LOT of impact on other people. He has been pouting for 15 years.

    I am not a fan of Ruth Terry, but I cannot completely disagree with her article. "Fans" are already attacking her on Twitter for her article. :brickwall:
     
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  3. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    When the only tool that you have is a hammer ...

    The article seems like a case of a writer clinging to a buzzword when any number of older concepts would have sufficed. I find that the article is trying to hard to fit Picard, as a character from the newer series, into a predefined box. What we have is an older man reassessing, reckoning with his past actions and choices.
     
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  4. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    huh.. Privlage? somewhat maybe.. its mainly Patrick Stewarts own reactions to Brixit and refugee problem, and his opinions on what it is/should be.
    I personally think that, like all those Luke would never go in to hiding theory mongers. that Picard would have not have given up, all through out Tng, he digs in like an alabama tick and doesn't let go until he is satisfied.. He would have threatened his resignation, but he wouldn't have done it, He wouldn't have ANY power if he did, he was an admiral, he could have atleast gotten a few ships, bugged people untill he got Something.. Him giving up wasn't in his character.

    and yes, he comes in on his horse, does what he can, then rides out into the sunset, but he doesn't leave it and not care, like Kirk and Khan.. he makes sure something stays fixed.
    But Picard, in my opinion, didn't need to be "Humbled" He was "Superman" as in he symbolized federation ideals in what they should be, the "best of us" and did his best to make sure that happened ( Numerous examples, Baku, etc.)
     
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  5. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've been listening to people complain about how Ben Sisko heartlessly destroyed dear old Jean-Luc for over 25 years now. Some people just cannot stand to see Picard criticized in any way. It's weird.
     
  6. Soong-type Android

    Soong-type Android Commander Red Shirt

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    Morality tales have always been a key component of Star Trek and have a flawed protagonist like Picard whose experiences and decisions define him and still impact his life and where things don't go his own way is far more interesting and compelling I feel.

    Having said that, I disagree with the author that Klingons - who have a vast interstellar empire - are in anyway "marginalised".
     
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  7. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The article lost me when it claimed Picard was privileged for being Male. Has nothing to do with Star Trek at that point.
     
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  8. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    The article is a fair evaluation of the ways in which Picard had levels of privilege he did not consciously acknowledge.

    It's not a comprehensive view of Picard, since he was also the kind of person who generally used his privilege to help marginalized people, but it's a fair critique. He did have a lot of hubris. He did think of himself as a "Federation savior" to the Romulans in the same way many well-meaning white people today have "white savior" complexes as they try to help people in formerly colonized nations.

    I mean, objectively speaking, women's roles in TNG are often still depicted in very sexist terms. It's objectively fair to appraise Picard as possessing masculine privilege. Personally, my instinct is to retcon and disregard those aspects of the depictions of women in TNG that are problematic, but it's legit for someone to decide to take it all in and accept that the Federation is still somewhat sexist.

    I agree, but I think Worf is at least a little bit marginalized within the Federation as a species minority.
     
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  9. DEWLine

    DEWLine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have no complaints about this essay. Except that it might be a tad more ruthless than it is.
     
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  10. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Starfleet is not meant to be sexist in TNG, the whole idea is absurd. He was following orders from female admirals all the time and there's female captains just as important as him.
     
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  11. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    And yet, women characters are constantly depicted in sexualized, objectified manners (Troi's costumes especially), and the two main female characters are depicted in traditionally female-gendered caregiver roles. Troi is often depicted as uncertain and questionably competent in command scenarios. Women characters like Troi and Luxana are depicted in ways that fulfill stereotypes of women (loving chocolate, being overbearing and controlling of children, being hedonistic). Ambitious or assertive women characters like Shelby or Nechayev are depicted in harsh, critical terms. Women characters like the title character of "The Perfect Mate" are literally depicted as beings that exist to fulfill men's desires, and it's depicted as a tragedy that Picard cannot possess her instead of it being a tragedy that she's not given agency over her own life. When Lal is created, she is told that she "must" assume a gender role, and then, after she assumes a female gender role and kisses Riker, Data asks Riker what his "intentions" are as though he has some sort of ownership of his daughter in a patriarchal society. When Leah Brahams sees that Geordi has cyberstalked her and created a holographic re-creation of her, she is depicted as being unreasonable and mean-spirited for reacting with anger to his creepy, possessive, boundary-crossing, and stalking behavior.

    Sorry, but it's perfectly fair to complain that TNG is sexist even if the characters imagine in-universe that their society is egalitarian.
     
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  12. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's both because it's a tv show made in the 80's and they often decided to do the "sex sells" thing.

    That doesnt mean Starfleet is supposed to be sexist in the story or that Picard had male privilege to achieve what he did, which is exactly what the article implies.

    And Shelby was ambitious and went up against Riker, nothing wrong with that.

    That's just being a parent
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  13. zenophite

    zenophite Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Perhaps, but I think it can certainly be implied to be an element given the overall sentiment of the article and the leanings of the author.

    But what is the actual point being made here byt his discussion of so-called privilege? That he didn't care? He certainly seemed to care. That he didn't sacrifice himself further? How far would he have to go to be immune from criticism?

    I never got the sense that the Picard character was blind to the impact his decisions, actions or inactions had on the situation at hand. Quite the contrary - he seemed like a philosophical military man of which there have been many great examples in history; each with their own flaws and foibles.

    She is part of this modern counter-culture movement that is relentlessly attacking pretty much every aspect of what can be considered traditional Western/European culture. That is fine. Why is it a problem if people attack back if they disagree?
     
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  14. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    I have no problem with a debate, but personal attacks and slurs really make people look classy.
     
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  15. zenophite

    zenophite Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The problem with this sort of analysis is that it makes the assumption that these women were not behaving in accordance to their own volition and agency with respect to their wardrobe, careers and other factors simply because they are what some might call 'stereotypes'.

    Within the context of 'the Perfect Mate' story we are dealing with an alien woman in the 24th century not a 20th or 21st century human woman. Given that, we can assume a variety of evolutionary, biological, sociological and ideological intricacies unique to her race are at play that we wouldn't be privy to within that story. Why would one apply a judgement of the situation based on one particular early 21st century Western philosophical/ideological view? Talk about privilege!

    As for Shelby and Necheyev I think it's all a matter of perspective...I mean personally I've encountered plenty of 'Assertive Ambitious' people in my life, both men and women, and most of them all seemed to be somewhere on the asshole spectrum regardless of their sex or gender....Were there any 'ambitious assertive' characters who were male on the shows that seemed nice? I honestly don't know but then again i haven't seen any of this stuff in a while.
     
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  16. zenophite

    zenophite Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Agreed.

    I don't partake of social media so I admit to being unaware of the nature or character of the attacks....
     
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  17. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    Picard's story is in the area of privilege but it's not the most direct theme explored. And certainly not specifically white privilege. You could argue, being insulated from the parts of the galaxy that aren't as well off gave him the privilege of idealism, the option not to compromise when confronted with reality, as a critique of his decision making process in TNG.

    Picard in the Star Trek universe isn't privileged because he's white or male, he's privileged because he's human, living on Earth. Homo sapien privilege.
     
  18. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    You may be one of the smarter folks in the room then :beer:
     
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    So, are you saying the problem is Earth?


    ;)
     
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  20. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    The problem is people who live in a relatively safe place with all the food and shelter they need easy to come by and power over their own destiny have a sanitized view of the human condition.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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