photon torpedo vs Quantum torpedo

[Cary L. Brown]

maybe they didn't want to get rid of photon torpedoes that are more cheaper & easier to make.

Well, the creator's intent was (1) they're far more powerful, and (2) they're far more expensive, and much more scarce.

Whether or not every writer really thought this through in every script is definitely an issue... but it seems like the most obvious answer. If the people who came up with them came up with them for a specific purpose (to show progress beyond the "old photon torpedos which have been in use since TOS" towards something newer and better) then I'm inclined to accept that as the "real" answer.

The main issue, really, is how to explain those scripts which seem to infer otherwise. When in doubt, where a conflict exists, go with the source material.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Timo made a good point in another thread. I didn't want to derail that Romuland thread, so I'll answer here:

Regarding the tech aspects of the silly extra torp launchers, one might say that they were a lesson learned from the Dominion War. Apparently, starship phasers didn't do as much good against the smallest Jem'Hadar ships as they should - and phasers used to be the primary defensive weapon. Perhaps the solution was to take torps from offensive to defensive, and to add small, short-ranged torpedo weapon systems all around the various ships for self-defense purposes?

Note that we have seen the tiny runabouts fire torpedoes, too - although never at warp. Perhaps sublight torpedoes don't need big launchers with long accelerator barrels? The newer torps of the E-E never did warp. Nor, for that matter, did the quantum torps of the E-E ever get fired at FTL speeds.

Timo Saloniemi

That's a very good observation and hypothesis. Even the quantum launcher, if you look at the MSD, seems to be small, and the torpedoes are dropped into the turret from above. It could be that, while quantum torps are more powerful and/or have a penetrative quality, they are slow, low maneuverability, short range weapons that can't travel at warp, hence the need for backup in the form of 4 other tubes. When you look at Galaxy-class, those launchers are 40-50 yards long, something's gotta give.

This would all fit with the facts we see on screen:

In First Contact, they fire 4 quantums at the sphere, why not just use the photon torpedo tubes? May be they have good penetrative ability in addition to being more powerful since we see them sort of explode from the inside of the sphere? This also begs the question, why use quantums on the Phoenix? Wouldn't one photon be enough?

They seem to be fired from short range. Defiant fights in close quarters by definition, so they appear little faster when fired from Defiant, since the distance between the two ships is short; in First Contact, however, they look pretty slow on all three occasions they are fired, especially where the distance is a bit long: against the sphere and the Phoenix.

For what it's worth, even though books are not cannon, it's interesting to see other authors' take on it. In the TNG "Dominion War" books, the author thinks it's necessary to drop the shields, before firing quantums, which are also fired from the aft. At that time I used to think that the aft launcher must be the docking port above secondary shuttlebay.

In "Ship of the Line", Picard asks for phasers and photons. When informed that photons are off-line for the next few hours and they "only" have quantums, he says that quantums are not manueverable enough, and asks for everyone to concentrate on fixing phasers.

It's obvious that the earlier opinion was that they are somewhat different, special if you will, and not a direct replacement for photons.

 

[T'Girl]

It would seem obvious from the series that Voyager was building her own torpedos after some point. That might also be a differance between Quantum and Photon. Quantum come from a production factory, medium and large ships can restock their own magazines.

 

[Deks]

I don't see any particular reason as to why any crew with enough resources would not be able to synthesize their own torpedoes.

Voyager was limited with resources early on ... but even they would be stopping at numerous locations with suitable resources or sufficiently advanced civilizations that would be able to help them out.

As for Quantums ...
I don't see them particularly slower than Photons.
The main reasons they would be used likely is to be in defence against the Borg.
They are newer technology, probably delivers more punch among other things ... but to make it slower than photons makes little sense to me.

Also ... why would they remain in scarcity about 5 years after the Dominion war?
That simply doesn't make any sense.
SF would likely distribute production of those torpedoes throughout Federation territory ... so it makes 0 sense they'd be in particularly scarce amount.

Then again, it might be depending on whether or not the ships themselves stop by at necessary points in order to get a new compliment of Quantums to begin with.

 

[T'Girl]

After the Dominion started hitting federation home worlds, spreading production around makes sense, and they would of been mass produced. Convoys of cargo ships could of brought them to the "front."

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I don't see any particular reason as to why any crew with enough resources would not be able to synthesize their own torpedoes.

Torpedoes probably require a certain amount of dilithium for the warheads to work. Dilithium obviously cannot be synthesized, so they would have to scavenge it from places along the way.

As for Quantums ...
I don't see them particularly slower than Photons.

Only by VFX coincidence. Photon torpedoes DO appear to move somewhat faster, but it's hard to say since they are rarely seen at the same time.

The main reasons they would be used likely is to be in defence against the Borg.

Actually, at this point I'm pretty sure they're anti-Dominion weapons, considering Defiant wasn't equipped with them when it arrived at DS9. I doubt they deliver more punch, they're probably just a little bit more effective at penetrating shields (in fact, they might actually be LESS powerful than regular photon torpedoes and simply more efficient at penetrating starship defenses).

Also ... why would they remain in scarcity about 5 years after the Dominion war?

See above. They're probably some kind of specialty weapon only used against heavily fortified targets. Like the way most American naval vessels prefer to use Harpoons against enemy warships before using the more powerful/longer range TASM.

 

[Timo]

Dilithium obviously cannot be synthesized

Not so obviously, I'd say. It's probably possible to synthesize or replicate every existing substance, compound or structure, and then some - it's just not necessarily economically viable, or then it takes too much time.

Say, a WWII cruiser could in principle build more torpedoes for herself by using onboard workshops and a supply of raw materials. But it makes no tactical sense to devote the ship's resources to such a thing, when far greater utility is gained from letting the ship run out of torps and then sail back to a port where dedicated facilities have manufactured spare torps for the ship.

It's probably simple to replicate torpedo casings; more difficult to do the same to the torpedo warp drive; even more difficult to replicate the warhead with its intricate forcefields (which is why the Maquis, even if in possession of industrial replicators, could be suspected of stealing empty warheads in DS9 "Tribunal"); and perfectly possible yet energetically insane to replicate antideuterium for filling the warhead (because its replication would consume more antimatter than was created).

So the stranded Voyager would initially hope to survive on the onboard stock of torps, then would slowly begin to manufacture the components needed for spares, and would purchase further components from friendly ports. Antimatter she'd have to purchase from elsewhere. Dilithium's something she'd try to manufacture and buy. Tellingly, Voyager never apparently ran out of dilithium, even though fuel shortages and torpedo shortages were mentioned, and many dilithium-straining maneuvers were performed...

Actually, at this point I'm pretty sure they're anti-Dominion weapons, considering Defiant wasn't equipped with them when it arrived at DS9.

Possible... But Defiant was sent to perform an anti-Dominion mission. It's plausible that she'd leave anti-Borg ammo ashore for such a mission, but she should be stocked with anti-Dominion rounds from the very beginning.

Or is the assumption that quantums did not yet exist as of "The Search" and were only developed as the result? I'd hate to postulate that. After all, we've seen that quantums are fired from dedicated launchers on Defiant and Sovereign vessels, and those launchers are visible on the respective ship types from the start.

So I'd rather argue quantums were conceived as anti-Borg stuff and hence were not on board in "The Search", as their efficacy in the anti-Dominion role was dubious and the actual ordnance perhaps in short supply. And Starfleet in any case expected that the Defiant would be lost, probably captured, and thus shouldn't be loaded with anything valuable...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

The quantums likely existed prior to 'The Search' ... but were in the final development stage most likely or were undergoing final tests before being released into full use which is why they were not put onto the Defiant.
On the other hand ... they might have not put them on the Defiant because SF knew they were sending it into the enemy territory if the ship underwent capture (as it did).

We do have one bit of reference to go on though.
The Dreadnought in Voyager had quantums on board ... and that thing was send into the DQ before Voyager ... so yes, it's likely they existed before 'the Search'.


I'd also argue the quantums were conceived as anti-Borg weapons to begin with since the Borg presented themselves as a threat years before the Dominion.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I'd also argue the quantums were conceived as anti-Borg weapons to begin with since the Borg presented themselves as a threat years before the Dominion.

Yeah, after encounter at j25 they started making new weapon systems. Remember Geordi saying that none of them are ready yet in BOTBW.

 

[USS Excelsior]

I wonder what happened with the remaining Transphasic torpedoes the Voyager brought back and if they were attempted to be reproduced..

Maybe they would save them in case the Borg appeared and only use them then.

 

[Deks]

Well, some of the Destiny novels address this issue ... and while I haven't read the novels in detail (the novels after Janeway's death), I am aware that Transphasic torpedoes were used against invading Borg cubes.

That's as far as the novels (non-canon) are concerned.
In terms of canon ... who knows.
SF could have equipped the Enterprise-E with several of those, fire 1 at the Scimitar and end the threat before everything went to mess.

Of course SF behaves like a bunch of morons when upgrades are concerned, so it's a moot point.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Actually, at this point I'm pretty sure they're anti-Dominion weapons, considering Defiant wasn't equipped with them when it arrived at DS9.

Possible... But Defiant was sent to perform an anti-Dominion mission. It's plausible that she'd leave anti-Borg ammo ashore for such a mission, but she should be stocked with anti-Dominion rounds from the very beginning.

Why would they have had anti-Dominion weapons at that stage? They had never heard of the Dominion until a week earlier.

The better question is why would they be using anti-Borg weapons against dominion ships when their technology is not at all similar.

Or is the assumption that quantums did not yet exist as of "The Search" and were only developed as the result? I'd hate to postulate that. After all, we've seen that quantums are fired from dedicated launchers on Defiant

Defiant's launchers don't appear to be "dedicated." Actually, I think she fires quantums from standard torpedo tubes. The Lakota, also, is equipped with quantum torpedoes, so it seems plausible those weapons can be used with even a normal torpedo launcher.

 

[matthunter]

The explosive yield of the quantum is not a vast advance over the photon, agreed - Voyager makes it plain that "high-yield" photon warheads exist so presumably these can reach the ballpark of a quantum torpedo blast.

However, no-one has yet raised another possibility - quantums came out of anti-Borg weapons research. And what is the one thing that the Borg are known for? Adapting to weapons fire. Perhaps drawing upon zero-point energy prevents easy adaptation? They didn't call them zero-point torpedoes, so perhaps the "quantum" has more to do with the uncertainty principle - the Borg cannot know the specific "weapons frequency" of a given torpedo until after it has already exploded.

Of course, this doesn't stop the Borg using conventional shields to absorb Q-torp damage - just stops them modulating their shields to completely block the shot as they usually do - so it's not an insta-win option for the Federation, it just levels the playing field a tad.

 

[Myasishchev]

I'm a bit uncomfortable with notion of q-torps as ZPE generators. It brings the Federation too close to a source of free energy and justifying the arrogant assertions of being a post-economic society...

Granted, q-torps would likely be an uncontrolled/uncontrollable ZPE generator--analogous in this way to our present-day thermonuclear devices. But if they really are ZPE sources, one would think it would be so wonderful a theoretical breakthrough that it would merit a single idealistic line to the effect that "Imagine the possibilities if we could harness this for peace etc," in the same way that following the creation of H-bomb scientists believed controlled, viable fusion was right around the corner (yeah, right).

That said, it's hard to understand what the "quantum" could refer to other than ZPE.

However, I have a vague idea that it could refer to using a matter/antimatter primary to compress a few thousand kilograms of material into a quantum singularity, which would immediately evaporate. Again, the analogy is a fusion device, which uses a fission primary to achieve the densities and temperatures fusion requires, releasing mass through a strong force potential energy well as light.

This would be totally consistent with Cary's idea that a q-torp may have a long arming time, which would make it undesirable to totally phase out quick-arming matter/antimatter bombs. It would also explain why q-torps need a specialized launching mechanism, or even why they're slower. Loading a few thousand kilograms of, say, very hot liquid lead and arranging the matter/antimatter compressor plates could take a comparatively long time, and might need a larger launcher than the sixty kilo or so pho-torps require, and the resulting weapon would be much heavier and hence slower. An interesting thing would be that the q-torps themselves would not be much more expensive than a pho-torp, but the logistics would be far more complicated.

The problem with this is that I am not at all sure that even a very large matter/antimatter explosion would have the requisite energy to compress anything down into a black hole, the way a fission bomb can force tritium to fuse (in fact, I'm pretty positive it can't). However, if it could, the Hawking radiation from a evaporating black hole of a few thousand tons would mean a mass-energy conversion thousands of times that of a conventional pho-torp... and without nearly as much antimatter, which is likely the only premium material in a photon-torpedo, after all. (I mean, I can find hydrogen all over. Antihydrogen? Not so much.)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That said, it's hard to understand what the "quantum" could refer to other than ZPE.

Schrödinger's Warhead. On impact the shields immediately collapse, but they also hold.

 

[Myasishchev]

That said, it's hard to understand what the "quantum" could refer to other than ZPE.

Schrödinger's Warhead. On impact the shields immediately collapse, but they also hold.

But is Spot okay?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes and no

 

[Timo]

Defiant's launchers don't appear to be "dedicated." Actually, I think she fires quantums from standard torpedo tubes.

Well, all the quantums this ship ever fired came from the "cheek" slits. No photon torpedo was ever shown or stated to come from there. In contrast, a torpedo that looked like the classic red TNG photons came out of an aft tube (which never spat out quantums), and there was a verbal reference to aft photon torpedoes once as well.

The Lakota, also, is equipped with quantum torpedoes, so it seems plausible those weapons can be used with even a normal torpedo launcher.

OTOH, the Lakota never fired any standard torpedoes from those tubes. So it's just as possible that she was refitted with all-new launchers that no longer can fire photons.

The strange fact remains that no Starfleet tube seen so far has been witnessed firing both q- and p-torps. It's always either or. The explanation could very well be that the two are incompatible somehow...

Now, a photon launcher can fire probes and coffins and whatnot, so probably it could fire any type of projectile. But perhaps it cannot arm and prime a q-torp? And perhaps the machinery needed for that is too bulky to be fitted around a p-torp launcher, without completely replacing the machinery needed for arming and priming a p-torp?

Timo Saloniemi