Phaser Turret Concept

[CuttingEdge100]

Awhile back I had talked about a TMP era remake, using a machinema type concept, and voice editing software to produce the desired voices for the various characters.

Either way one of the ideas I thought up was having the phaser cannons on the Enterprise be electronically steered instead of mechanically steered.

Sound cool?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

In what way is this different from any other Trek concept?

 

[T'Girl]

Being "electronically steered" would be like the modern day Navy's phased array radar, there is no rotating dish, nothing moves on the exterior, the radar beams emit from a flat panel. The Navy first started using the type of radar in the late 1950's with I believe the USS Long Beach cruiser. In the original TOS there was never shown any kind of turret, even when that portion of the ship was shown in detail during fly bys.

Having the phaser fire come from a flat panel emitter gets away from pumping all that energy through a ball turret only a couple of meters across. The source of the word or acronym "Phaser" isn't canon, phaser might come from phased array.

 

[B.J.]

I actually had been thinking of the same kind of thing, but not for the Enterprise. In my mind, the refit Enterprise and early Excelsiors had the mechanical ball turrets, but somewhere in there (perhaps later model Excelsiors) they transitioned to a solid state turret. That would seem to bridge the gap from the mechanical ball turret to the Ambassador's short phaser strips a little better.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well, there's also no canon evidence that the mechanically steered "ball turrets" of the TMP era were anything of the kind; even hand phasers regularly fire off boresight, so a certain amount of electrical steering might already exist for phasers (and pretty much have to exist for the Reliant, whose main phaser weapon doesn't seem to have any physical means of aiming).

Really, the only time we see a mechanical aiming device on a starship--canonically, anyway--is on the Klingon bird of prey and Kelvin's phaser turrets. But this is probably more a feature of modeling limitations (the fact that tiny moving parts are really hard to build into a six foot filming model) than actual starship design.

 

[Birdog]

Well, there's also no canon evidence that the mechanically steered "ball turrets" of the TMP era were anything of the kind; even hand phasers regularly fire off boresight, so a certain amount of electrical steering might already exist for phasers (and pretty much have to exist for the Reliant, whose main phaser weapon doesn't seem to have any physical means of aiming).

Really, the only time we see a mechanical aiming device on a starship--canonically, anyway--is on the Klingon bird of prey and Kelvin's phaser turrets. But this is probably more a feature of modeling limitations (the fact that tiny moving parts are really hard to build into a six foot filming model) than actual starship design.

Reliant didn't fire from the ends of those tubes on her rollbar. If you look closely at the model there is a small phaser bulb on the outboard side that would have been the emitter.

 

[David cgc]

That's true for the surprise attack, but in the nebula, the cannons fired from the tip. See for yourself.

 

[Birdog]

That's true for the surprise attack, but in the nebula, the cannons fired from the tip. See for yourself.

To my eye it does look like it is in fact coming from the end. However that could be rationalized as a vfx goof and it should be coming from the outboard side aiming along the tube. I never did like the concept of those tubes being weapons.

 

[Vanyel]

The FX were a bit off in TWOK. For example: In the Nebula Reliant pass by the port side of Enterprise and fires at Enterprise. Enterprise uses he port phasers to return fire and the FX show the shots coming in from forward. This would only have been possible if Reliant turned on her axis and fired forward while facing Enterprise.

 

[Maurice]

Lining up animation effects with other photography was fraught with error, so any single shot where a beam doesn't emit from the point it's supposed to is just an error. Don't read too much into it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The FX were a bit off in TWOK. For example: In the Nebula Reliant pass by the port side of Enterprise and fires at Enterprise. Enterprise uses he port phasers to return fire and the FX show the shots coming in from forward. This would only have been possible if Reliant turned on her axis and fired forward while facing Enterprise.

Not really, no. Enterprise actually turned hard to starboard away from Reliant, while Reliant remained on course. Really, it was ENTERPRISE that turned on its axis, not Reliant; probably the ship had to yaw to starboard using thrusters before using its impulse engines to change directions.

That's true for the surprise attack, but in the nebula, the cannons fired from the tip. See for yourself.

To my eye it does look like it is in fact coming from the end. However that could be rationalized as a vfx goof and it should be coming from the outboard side aiming along the tube.

I'm puzzled as to why you think it "should" be coming from the outboard side as opposed to the front end. If anything, it "should" be coming from the phaser banks in the saucer section, there's no reason for there to be phasers on the rollbar in the first place.

I never did like the concept of those tubes being weapons.

I like it just fine, provided they also remove the phaser weapons from the saucer module to justify the additional emplacements in the rollbar.

 

[Vanyel]

The FX were a bit off in TWOK. For example: In the Nebula Reliant pass by the port side of Enterprise and fires at Enterprise. Enterprise uses he port phasers to return fire and the FX show the shots coming in from forward. This would only have been possible if Reliant turned on her axis and fired forward while facing Enterprise.

Not really, no. Enterprise actually turned hard to starboard away from Reliant, while Reliant remained on course. Really, it was ENTERPRISE that turned on its axis, not Reliant; probably the ship had to yaw to starboard using thrusters before using its impulse engines to change directions.

I can't picture how that would allow Enterprise to get in front of Reliant, for her port side phasers to hit Reliant from the front. Unless Reliant turned as well.

 

[Birdog]

The FX were a bit off in TWOK. For example: In the Nebula Reliant pass by the port side of Enterprise and fires at Enterprise. Enterprise uses he port phasers to return fire and the FX show the shots coming in from forward. This would only have been possible if Reliant turned on her axis and fired forward while facing Enterprise.

Not really, no. Enterprise actually turned hard to starboard away from Reliant, while Reliant remained on course. Really, it was ENTERPRISE that turned on its axis, not Reliant; probably the ship had to yaw to starboard using thrusters before using its impulse engines to change directions.

To my eye it does look like it is in fact coming from the end. However that could be rationalized as a vfx goof and it should be coming from the outboard side aiming along the tube.

I'm puzzled as to why you think it "should" be coming from the outboard side as opposed to the front end. If anything, it "should" be coming from the phaser banks in the saucer section, there's no reason for there to be phasers on the rollbar in the first place.

I never did like the concept of those tubes being weapons.

I like it just fine, provided they also remove the phaser weapons from the saucer module to justify the additional emplacements in the rollbar.

It should come from the bulb that is on the outboard uper corner of the rollbar. It looks like every other phaser bulb on the ship. The tubes don't look like any other phaser before or since Reliant. Someone else posted images of them but I can't find them.

 

[JTK1]

USS Saratoga movie era:
http://www.mutara.net/Christies/models/reliant saratoga top.JPG

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The FX were a bit off in TWOK. For example: In the Nebula Reliant pass by the port side of Enterprise and fires at Enterprise. Enterprise uses he port phasers to return fire and the FX show the shots coming in from forward. This would only have been possible if Reliant turned on her axis and fired forward while facing Enterprise.

Not really, no. Enterprise actually turned hard to starboard away from Reliant, while Reliant remained on course. Really, it was ENTERPRISE that turned on its axis, not Reliant; probably the ship had to yaw to starboard using thrusters before using its impulse engines to change directions.

I can't picture how that would allow Enterprise to get in front of Reliant, for her port side phasers to hit Reliant from the front. Unless Reliant turned as well.

What's so hard about this?

1) Both ships moving towards each other head on.
2) Kirk sees Reliant rushing towards him in the viewscreen.
3) Enterprise turns hard to starboard (showing reliant her port side). Reliant--which does not turn--fires phasers, striking Enterprise' port side.
4) Enterprise fires back with port side phasers, striking Reliant--who has still not turned--with a front-aspect shot.

Really, it's as if Enterprise "crossed the T" with reliant and fired a broadside while Reliant maintained course. If Reliant turned at all in this exchange, Enterprise would have been firing on her from a side aspect.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It looks like every other phaser bulb on the ship.

So do the running lights. That doesn't mean we should start drawing phaser blasts coming out of them. Much more to the point:

The tubes don't look like any other phaser before or since Reliant.

Since "Before" consists entirely of the Enterprise refit on which Reliant was based and "since" consists entirely of... well, Excelsior and the Enterprise-D and not much else, this doesn't make alot of difference. Defiant's phaser cannons also look like nothing else before or since, as do the phaser emplacements on the Nova class and DS9's rotary torpedo launchers.

There are all kinds of reasons why Starfleet might have wanted to mount a pair of extremely heavy phaser weapons on the Reliant for some mission or another. My point, though, is that there doesn't seem to be a reason for Reliant to use these phasers exclusively, especially since a concentrated of four phaser banks on its saucer section would probably do more damage than just those two heavy emitters.

On the other hand, we don't see concentrated phaser salvos until STXI, so visually this was probably out of the question anyway with 1980s technology.

 

[Vanyel]

Not really, no. Enterprise actually turned hard to starboard away from Reliant, while Reliant remained on course. Really, it was ENTERPRISE that turned on its axis, not Reliant; probably the ship had to yaw to starboard using thrusters before using its impulse engines to change directions.

I can't picture how that would allow Enterprise to get in front of Reliant, for her port side phasers to hit Reliant from the front. Unless Reliant turned as well.

What's so hard about this?

1) Both ships moving towards each other head on.
2) Kirk sees Reliant rushing towards him in the viewscreen.
3) Enterprise turns hard to starboard (showing reliant her port side). Reliant--which does not turn--fires phasers, striking Enterprise' port side.
4) Enterprise fires back with port side phasers, striking Reliant--who has still not turned--with a front-aspect shot.

Really, it's as if Enterprise "crossed the T" with reliant and fired a broadside while Reliant maintained course. If Reliant turned at all in this exchange, Enterprise would have been firing on her from a side aspect.

I think I see what you're saying. Enterprise turned so hard to starboard that she pivots. She then fires her port phasers, striking Reliant from the front; she then heads on her new course at impulse to avoid a collision. Is that it?

My thinking was that both Enterprise and Reliant stayed on their forward course, with Enterprise turning hard to starboard to avoid a head on collision. In that scenario, Reliant would have kept her course and Enterprise would have been moving forward and to her starboard. Both ships would be heading away from each other.

Just one question, would Enterprise have had time to move out of Reliant's path after making such a pivot? The external shot shows Reliant almost breathing on the Enterprise' bow just before Kirk orders hard starboard.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Just one question, would Enterprise have had time to move out of Reliant's path after making such a pivot? The external shot shows Reliant almost breathing on the Enterprise' bow just before Kirk orders hard starboard.

Depends on velocity and range. The only external shot that has them both in frame shows a range of between two and five kilometers.

The thing is, this exchange happens right after Enterprise chases Reliant into a staticky cloud; before this, both ships are on a parallel course, one right on the ass of the other. Reliant apparently pulls a crazy ivan just after Enterprise looses visual contact. Newton's third law: just because Reliant turns around doesn't mean Reliant changes directions. If she's using her impulse engines to cut some of her velocity, she might be closing on Enterprise at something like 200m/s when she opens fire.

If an impulse engines produces accelerations of around 20m/s^2, that gives the E something like ten to fifteen seconds to change its path before Reliant runs into her. Khan was probably counting on that; it gave him the time he needed to get a visual lock on the target and take the first shot.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

T'Girl,

Being "electronically steered" would be like the modern day Navy's phased array radar, there is no rotating dish, nothing moves on the exterior, the radar beams emit from a flat panel.

That was kind of the idea, except rather than emitting a radar beam, you'd be emitting a hugely powerful energy beam, oh and the flat panel would be shaped like a dome.

It is possible to develop a phased-array system like that.

The source of the word or acronym "Phaser" isn't canon, phaser might come from phased array.

I actually had thought of using that explanation! However the phaser pistols didn't seem to conform with that idea, so I decided to ditch it.

CE100

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The source of the word or acronym "Phaser" isn't canon, phaser might come from phased array.

I actually had thought of using that explanation! However the phaser pistols didn't seem to conform with that idea, so I decided to ditch it.

You never know, they still might. Especially if it turns out the main advantage of hand phasers is that it doesn't actually have to be pointed at its target to hit it; some sort of auto-tracking feature in Phaser-II allows the phased-array emitter (which is actually several emitters packed into a torroid) to steer the beam a few degrees off boresight and guarantee a hit.