phase 2 enterprise

[Stag]

I like the "Phase II" ship much more than the "TMP" Enterprise. The "Phase II" ship is much more like the "TOS" ship, my all-time favorite. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I agree and disagree.

TOS - all time favorite as well, but the nacelles don't seem quite right yet when compared to the TMP version. Like an idea not quite refined or finished.

 

[Outpost4]

So -- "whachoo say about that"?

I say you called it right by labeling your objections "nitpicking", at least regarding the windows.

I'll grant you greater discretion regarding the lines on the rim of the saucer, as they are a more significant change, but at least for me, I'll give Dochterman and the New Voyages folks the benefit of the doubt. It's their nickel. They can make whatever changes they want, especially because I know that James Cawley is an extreme purist. He doesn't make changes in a haphazard manner.

Any comparisons to the half finished Phase II model are questionable at the best. Who knows exactly what the finished product would have looked like? Beyond completing the basic build-out, there almost certainly would have been revisions. Look at the changes in the 11' model between the time it was delivered during the shooting of "The Cage" and the start of the series. The changes were small but, in the end, significant.

Plus any contemporaneous engineering drawings I've seen of the Phase II ship were more sketches than plans, including those of Matt Jefferies. The ones upthread here are the most complete I've ever seen, but I don't know their lineage. When were these "blueprints" drawn? Maybe I should read the book. They show no details on the rim - windows, ridges or whatever. I'm sure it was never the intention to leave the edge clean. Most likely those details were to be determined at a later date.

Design is often an evolutionary process. I've recently found that out the expensive way, as I am remodeling my house right now. My latest change of heart will cost me $350. Sometimes you don't know what's right until you've done it wrong.

 

[QuasarVM]

So -- "whachoo say about that"?

I say you called it right by labeling your objections "nitpicking", at least regarding the windows.

I'll grant you greater discretion regarding the lines on the rim of the saucer, as they are a more significant change, but at least for me, I'll give Dochterman and the New Voyages folks the benefit of the doubt. It's their nickel. They can make whatever changes they want, especially because I know that James Cawley is an extreme purist. He doesn't make changes in a haphazard manner.

Any comparisons to the half finished Phase II model are questionable at the best. Who knows exactly what the finished product would have looked like? Beyond completing the basic build-out, there almost certainly would have been revisions. Look at the changes in the 11' model between the time it was delivered during the shooting of "The Cage" and the start of the series. The changes were small but, in the end, significant.

Plus any contemporaneous engineering drawings I've seen of the Phase II ship were more sketches than plans, including those of Matt Jefferies. The ones upthread here are the most complete I've ever seen, but I don't know their lineage. When were these "blueprints" drawn? Maybe I should read the book. They show no details on the rim - windows, ridges or whatever. I'm sure it was never the intention to leave the edge clean. Most likely those details were to be determined at a later date.

Design is often an evolutionary process. I've recently found that out the expensive way, as I am remodeling my house right now. My latest change of heart will cost me $350. Sometimes you don't know what's right until you've done it wrong.

Well, since it was Richard Taylor and Andy Probert who came up with the rim lines to begin with -- I don't think the P2 ship would have had those. Also, I think it would have been pretty true to the paintings. The reason being that these were more like the TOS ship...at least with regard to the details we are discussing.

In fact, I know Richard Taylor and he told me he saw the P2 Enterprise model and they added all those details for the big screen -- he said the model they built was for, obviously, TV and it would have been fine for that but not for a film where there is more resolution and definition.

Anyway, I don't begrudge Dochterman and the STNV:P2 people for being able to make their own creative decisions but like all of us I have the right to not like some of them.

Dochterman usually does excellent work and I am a FAN of his work. Also, he may not have been 100% responsible for how the NVP2 ship came out.

But...bottom line...I think the rim of the saucer looks sloppy (those windows don't even have a pattern of any kind to them)...and I don't like the blue nav dome. That's just my opinion...and we are still free to "opine" in the USA at this time (although that will probably change in the next four years but I digress).

You can't really leave the details of a model like this (at least windows) for a "later date" because it would have had to have been wired for lighting, etc. Although, yes...if you look at that unfinished model in those pictures the rim is smooth -- no windows at all.

It's not even a given that the P2 ship was going to have lighted nacelle caps...that, to me, is a detail that might have been embellished by the NVP2 team but I am ok with that one.

 

[Tan Ru]

meh..........

It's pretty much just the Refit from the films.

Not a lot of difference to me.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

This is one of the things that aggravates me so much about Dennis. His attention to detail in his CGI work and his writing don't mesh with his cavalier attitude towards maintaining a consistent continuity. He should know better.

Thanks for the compliment.

As for the other - I know quite as well as you, and probably better. My tastes and opinions - on a range of topics, actually - based upon my experience and what I know simply differ from yours.

BTW, all of those rim windows in the publicity poster appear only on that poster - as do a number of other fanciful details - and on no plans or other drawings/renderings of the ship nor on the Don Loos/Brick Price model. There's no reason to think nor evidence to support the notion that the windows and other additional nerny detail on the painting were anything other than artistic license intended to suggest scale and complexity.

 

[QuasarVM]

Dennis,

From what I can tell, your P2 model is spot-on!

Needs some mapping, but otherwise...

Great work!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Dennis,

From what I can tell, your P2 model is spot-on!

Needs some mapping, but otherwise...

Great work!

Thanks for the kind words.

Other projects keep pulling me away from finishing the texturing on this one - plus I haven't settled on a treatment for the nacelle caps. Hopefully, sometime early in the new year.

 

[NCC621]

Well, here's the "official" version from Cawley's merry band of merrymakers...

My two cents: 1) beautiful model and beautiful rendering. 2) I like the original window pattern on the saucer rim better. This pattern looks random and scattered to me, while the original looked like it was purposeful.

 

[QuasarVM]

Well, here's the "official" version from Cawley's merry band of merrymakers...

My two cents: 1) beautiful model and beautiful rendering. 2) I like the original window pattern on the saucer rim better. This pattern looks random and scattered to me, while the original looked like it was purposeful.

Dennis' laps this thing...

 

[Maurice]

re Dochterman's model. What jars is that the windows on the rest of ship fall into familiar patterns and banks, and those on the saucer rum are just scattered willy-nilly. It doesn't feel consistent with the rest of the model...and why the heck are they so deeply indented?

 

[QuasarVM]

re Dochterman's model. What jars is that the windows on the rest of ship fall into familiar patterns and banks, and those on the saucer rum are just scattered willy-nilly. It doesn't feel consistent with the rest of the model...and why the heck are they so deeply indented?

We discuss that in some of the posts above...yeah...looks terrible.

Also, why two photon torpedo tubes? This design only had one...