Phantom Menace is the best Prequel.

[Trekker4747]

Well, that's shoddy design. The shield system should be penatratable by friendly ships. Otherwise, well, that's a flaw and an opportunity everyone would know about and take advanatage of.

I'm assuming this is humor, but, if it's not, forget the "Thumbs up". You need to look no further than various incarnations of Trek, where the shields had to be down to transport someone/something or to launch shuttles, probes, etc

I recall a few instances where shuttles and probles could be launched from the ship with shields up by dicking with the frequencies.

 

[Set Harth]

Yes it is.

No, it's not. Given that the "two people can't rule an empire" position is itself illogical and contradicted by reality, you'd be hard-pressed to find a known example of logical fallacy which "two people can rule an empire" conforms to. Meanwhile, your position is simple argument from incredulity, a fallacy. Does it make any sense to say that the opposition to this fallacy is itself a fallacy? Not at all.

I know that Vader and the Emperor were in charge (or the Emperor was, at least), but that doesn't give justification for saying the Sith rule the galaxy, given that there are presumably millions of others in charge who aren't Sith.

You're contradicting yourself. You "know" that Vader and the Emperor were in charge, but you really don't, because millions of others were also in charge! How many people can be "in charge" at the same time? Is every single person in the Empire actually "in charge"? What does "in charge" mean?

unless the Emperor could somehow magically control millions of other leaders.

It's not magic.

The rule of two was stated in the PT, not the originals.

Two Sith ruled the galaxy in the originals. Thus, if two Sith ruling the galaxy is a problem, the problem is the fault of the originals. However, since the originals can do no wrong, the faults of the originals must somehow be faults of the prequels. So much for "logic". It sounds like time travel must have been involved ( or it's all just a nonsensical mess created by carelessly inventing imaginary fault with the PT without thinking through the collateral damage ).

Further, there was no mention on the originals of the Sith ruling the galaxy.

That's completely irrelevant. The originals showed darksiders ruling the galaxy, and we know the Sith are darksiders.

We didn't even know the Emperor was a force user until the very end of Jedi!

So what? Is the very end of Jedi a prequel?

if I saw a case where someone was nitpicking a plot hole that they pulled out of their ass, I would disagree despite not liking the films.

Right.

Religion of prequel hate?

Denial, believing in myths, assumptions of infallibility... if the shoe fits.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

No, it's not. Given that the "two people can't rule an empire" position is itself illogical and contradicted by reality, you'd be hard-pressed to find a known example of logical fallacy which "two people can rule an empire" conforms to.

I thought you were disagreeing with my definition of logical fallacy as an error in logic.

You're contradicting yourself. You "know" that Vader and the Emperor were in charge, but you really don't, because millions of others were also in charge!

Again, you are arguing a completely different point. I said originally that it is silly to consider a group of only two members a group that can "rule the galaxy". I don't care that it did happen in the confines of a fantasy universe. If you can find any examples in history where it made sense to say "group x rules the kingdom/country" when group x was only two guys, please share.

Otherwise we are merely disagreeing on our opinions of what makes sense.

Two Sith ruled the galaxy in the originals. Thus, if two Sith ruling the galaxy is a problem, the problem is the fault of the originals.

They weren't identified as Sith in the originals. Nor was it stated that "the Sith rule the galaxy".

However, since the originals can do no wrong, the faults of the originals must somehow be faults of the prequels.

So by your logic, the flaws of sequels are inherently the flaws of the originals, and I should be bothered by flaws introduced by the sequels when viewing the originals?

Right.

Well, until you know me personally you can't say otherwise.

Seems like you are making a lot of assumptions based on me not liking a film you like.

Denial, believing in myths, assumptions of infallibility... if the shoe fits.

I never said the originals were infallible or that the prequels are all bad.

Again, you are making some rather silly assumptions. Seems like a good time to end this argument to me.

 

[Broccoli]

How come Anakin was able to get inside the blockade ship when the bad guys claimed that nothing could get through their shields?

Watch the scene again. Two droid ships are flying out at the same time Anakin is flying in. Therefore the hangar shield was down temporarily to let the droid ships out.

I just watched the scene again. There are four ships that exit when Anakin enters.

I guess the problem lies in that the sequence was clumsily executed. The ships are so incredibly small in the lower left hand corner of the screen, blend into the background, and are on screen for less than half a second. Unless you pause it and go frame-by-frame (as I had to), one would likely miss them.

It is odd that the shield being down wasn't made clearer (or if it was even the case) after the bad guys boasted about it and Anakin's entry is the key factor that saves the day.

 

[TheLobes]

In terms of the ruling the galaxy thing, I dont really think Vader has much to do with it. Grand Moff Tarkin seems to have superiority over him, for example, so Im guessing he's just supposed to be the right hand man. Its not like Vader and the Emperor meet up every fortnight and discuss economic policy.

You've got to remember that this is not Star Trek, this is Star Wars, a space opera/fantasy type deal. The emperor controls the galaxy. Is this realistic? No. Does this matter? No!

Its not a big part of the story. The galaxy was once a good place 'before the dark times, before the empire'. Thats it, SW paints with very broad strokes used for heavy emotion and drama which tend to miss out the realistic elements of space politics.

 

[TheLobes]

[Well the logical thing would have been Yoda and Obi-Wan teaming up the first time to go after Sidious, since he was the bigger threat, and then once he was defeated, it would have been a much easier task for them together to go after Anakin.

Plot-necessitated stupidity, of course. But to me, it's no more evident in ROTS than it is in TPM.

But my point is that the Yoda/Palp fight was not a plot necessity. They could have left it out of the film and it would not have made any difference, because Yoda is thematically not a character in this movie, and would not have been included if we didnt know him from the OT.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

It is odd that the shield being down wasn't made clearer (or if it was even the case) after the bad guys boasted about it and Anakin's entry is the key factor that saves the day.

I personally had less of a problem with Anakin getting into the shield than with him meeting zero resistance when he got there. Sure, there were droids that were essentially useless. Where were the turrets? Where were the other fighters?

Further, why did the hanger bay lead directly to the reactor, or something that could be shot that would lead to the destruction of the entire ship. That makes the lack of security look even more silly.

Sure, the Death Star designers had the exhaust vent that could set off a chain reaction and destroy the station. But the rebels had to steal highly guarded plans to find out about that. The Empire clearly had no idea it existed (Tarkin and Vader said as much when they were wondering of the Rebels found a weakness). That's bad, but not nearly as bad as having a hanger bay lead to the reactor, protected by only a single shield that is periodically lowered!

But my point is that the Yoda/Palp fight was not a plot necessity. They could have left it out of the film and it would not have made any difference, because Yoda is thematically not a character in this movie, and would not have been included if we didnt know him from the OT.

I have to agree. In fact, the battle was so unnecessary that I didn't even remember it until it was mentioned here.

 

[sonak]

[Well the logical thing would have been Yoda and Obi-Wan teaming up the first time to go after Sidious, since he was the bigger threat, and then once he was defeated, it would have been a much easier task for them together to go after Anakin.

Plot-necessitated stupidity, of course. But to me, it's no more evident in ROTS than it is in TPM.

But my point is that the Yoda/Palp fight was not a plot necessity. They could have left it out of the film and it would not have made any difference, because Yoda is thematically not a character in this movie, and would not have been included if we didnt know him from the OT.

I don't understand why you think that. Sidious had just declared himself emperor, he had just wiped out most of the Jedi, and Yoda, the most powerful of the Jedi, is one of the few of them left standing. It makes perfect sense for him to go after the Sith Lord who had just wiped out the Jedi and dismantled the Republic.


Otherwise the question would have been why didn't Yoda at least try to go after him before going into hiding like he did?


Honestly, I expected a Yoda/Sidious fight from as far back as Episode II, so I didn't see it as some unnecessary action sequence. Plus, it wasn't nearly as over the top in ridiculousness as the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel, fought over lava on tiny moving platforms.

 

[Dream]

TPM is the least interesting movie from the PT.

The whole thing feels like a damn prologue while AOTC at least feels connected to the OT. One of the strengths of this franchise is that nearly all the movies start right in the middle of a story without hardly any setup. ANH didn't show you the rebels stealing the secret plans, ESB didn't show you the Rebels trying to find a new base to hide in, ROTJ didn't start with the Luke, Leia and Lando sitting in a room planning out how to save Han. TPM was ALL setup.

The only thing that I consider important happening was Anakin meeting the Jedi, the rest isn't important. I never game a damn about Naboo since we never actually saw any of the suffering that the characters all commented about. I felt more emotion when Alderaan blew up in ANH.

Also the pacing was completely destroyed when they got back to Coruscant and the characters stood around and had meetings for 16 minutes.

Lucas should have skipped TPM era and just used flashbacks of young Anakin and made the Clone Wars into three films. That way he could have developed the romance over the first two movies and wouldn't have felt so rushed. Also the main villains were so incompetent. The Neimodians are fools compared to Vader and Tarkin in ANH. Jar Jar is also damn annoying.

Duel of the Fates is still awesome though. I sometimes put the dvd in and rewatch just that fight scene.

 

[Broccoli]

TPM is the least interesting movie from the PT.

The whole thing feels like a damn prologue while AOTC at least feels connected to the OT.

That is a very good point. TPM does feel like the odd one out in the prequel trilogy. Outside of meeting the characters, it doesn't really have much to do with the rest of the PT. Unless you count Palpatine getting elected, but it seems like such a small part of the overall story trying to be told.

Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just an observation.

 

[JarodRussell]

TPM is the least interesting movie from the PT.

The whole thing feels like a damn prologue while AOTC at least feels connected to the OT.

That is a very good point. TPM does feel like the odd one out in the prequel trilogy. Outside of meeting the characters, it doesn't really have much to do with the rest of the PT. Unless you count Palpatine getting elected, but it seems like such a small part of the overall story trying to be told.

Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just an observation.

Hm... I always felt that Star Wars doesn't really fit to Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

 

[Broccoli]

TPM is the least interesting movie from the PT.

The whole thing feels like a damn prologue while AOTC at least feels connected to the OT.

That is a very good point. TPM does feel like the odd one out in the prequel trilogy. Outside of meeting the characters, it doesn't really have much to do with the rest of the PT. Unless you count Palpatine getting elected, but it seems like such a small part of the overall story trying to be told.

Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just an observation.

Hm... I always felt that Star Wars doesn't really fit to Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

It is much more fluid from Star Wars to Empire where a viewer can go "Oh, okay. This happens next."

As opposed to TPM to AOTC, AOTC basically resets the playing field to where the setting and situations are different, and the characters are mostly different. Granted, 10 fictional years between installments will change people, but for a narrative, it gives it an awkward starting over feel.

 

[Dream]

Hm... I always felt that Star Wars doesn't really fit to Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

The characters from ESB are the same ones from ANH. They are just give more development and are less black and white.

 

[Mach5]

AOTC basically resets the playing field to where the setting and situations are different, and the characters are mostly different. ... it gives it an awkward starting over feel.

That's only because TPM didn't "prepare the turf" adequately. Count Dooku should have been introduced as a Jedi Council member in Episode I, and we should have learned right there that he's actually desperate to get out. Hell, wouldn't have it been cool if he were the first one to vocally oppose Yoda's refusal to allow Anakin become a padawan?

Also, TPM should have introduced the Separatists too, at first as a legitimate political movement, lead by not yet corrupted Dooku.

In fact, Dooku's motivation should have been made clear from the get go, and it should have been: "the corruption damaged the Republic beyond repair, and the Jedi order still serves it blindly. There's nothing left for me here, fuck y'all and have a nice day". Dooku then discovers that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, but instead of killing him, he agrees to being his disciple, just so he can tap into dark powers and discard him once he didn't need him any more. But Palpatine is too smart to allow himself to be used, and it ends up the other way around.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

That's only because TPM didn't "prepare the turf" adequately. Count Dooku should have been introduced as a Jedi Council member in Episode I, and we should have learned right there that he's actually desperate to get out. Hell, wouldn't have it been cool if he were the first one to vocally oppose Yoda's refusal to allow Anakin become a padawan?

Stop it!

Star Wars is not meant to be analyzed or thought about!

 

[Mach5]

Stop it!

Star Wars is not meant to be analyzed or thought about!

LOL, nice try.

This isn't what I meant, and you know it.

 

[Broccoli]

AOTC basically resets the playing field to where the setting and situations are different, and the characters are mostly different. ... it gives it an awkward starting over feel.

That's only because TPM didn't "prepare the turf" adequately.

Which isn't necessarily a fault of the film. TPM seems to stand, as pointed out above by TremblingBluStar, as a prologue to the Star Wars series. AotC is really where the "main story" begins. You can argue whether or not this was a good approach to take, but it seems to be the approach taken, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that approach.

 

[Mach5]

Which isn't necessarily a fault of the film. TPM seems to stand, as pointed out above by TremblingBluStar, as a prologue to the Star Wars series. AotC is really where the "main story" begins. You can argue whether or not this was a good approach to take, but it seems to be the approach taken, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that approach.

Oh, I don't mind TPM being a prologue, not at all. It's just that as a prologue, it doesn't entirely succeed.

But that's only because Lucas wrote every movie separately, instead of writing the whole trilogy all at once. It is quite obvious that he didn't do much planning for episodes II and III before he actually started writing them years later.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Which isn't necessarily a fault of the film. TPM seems to stand, as pointed out above by TremblingBluStar, as a prologue to the Star Wars series. AotC is really where the "main story" begins. You can argue whether or not this was a good approach to take, but it seems to be the approach taken, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that approach.

I think Lucas was trying to use TPM as a prologue of the prequels in the same way the first film was separate from the other two, but I don't think he was successful.

Going from the first film to Empire, we at least had a familiar setting and characters we identified with. As others have said, the characters from AoTC were essentially brand new, and what characters did return had hardly any personality to begin with.

Here's an example - one of the very first scenes from Empire is Han and Leia bickering. We see this, and think "yeah, that feels right". Even though Leia warmed up to Han by the end of the first film, they spent the majority of it at each other's throat.

The first scene in Clones we get between Amadala and Anakin, he hits on her, she rebuffs him, and we move on. There is no indication that these two have a history. Their interactions are completely different than they were in TPM. Nor are there any personality traits exhibited by Amadala that makes us say "yes, I know this character". There could have been any other woman in that role and the scene would have played out the exact same way.

 

[Uxi]

Here's an example - one of the very first scenes from Empire is Han and Leia bickering. We see this, and think "yeah, that feels right". Even though Leia warmed up to Han by the end of the first film, they spent the majority of it at each other's throat.

Then she's giving him the ice lady treatment and they're BACK at each other's throats through TESB. I always thought the acting in ANH was just as wooden and stilted as what many see in AOTC and think that's George Lucas for you. He's just not near as talented with direction or writing as with visuals and he pretty much openly admits that.

The first scene in Clones we get between Amadala and Anakin, he hits on her, she rebuffs him, and we move on. There is no indication that these two have a history. Their interactions are completely different than they were in TPM. Nor are there any personality traits exhibited by Amadala that makes us say "yes, I know this character". There could have been any other woman in that role and the scene would have played out the exact same way.

What? Did you miss the line where she says "Ani?" and tells him he's grown before his corny line comes back at her about her being more beautiful?