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Phantom Menace is the best Prequel.

What part of it was stunning?
Anakin killing the younglins was pretty cool! ;)

I agree that RoTS is probably the best of the prequels, in my opinion. Not because it's a good movie, but because it is an average scifi adventure in a horrible trilogy.

But then how is it an average scifi adventure? What other average sci fi can you compare it to? Its caught between being a movie for children, where ships get attacked by 'buzz droids' and people ride around on giant lizards, and a film for adults, in which children are sliced apart and someone gets dismembered and burnt alive. The dialogue scenes are awkwardly slow, and the action scenes are awkwardly fast. Its literally nothing but lightsaber duels, thats all that happens.
 
Its literally nothing but lightsaber duels, thats all that happens.
There's a space battle too, and an action sequence through a spaceship, and the fight with the fart sticks droids, and Artoo's short fight with the battle droids, and the chase between Obi-Wan and Grievous, and the Order 66 vignettes. I think it's fair to say that there's quite a lot more than lightsaber duels.
 
How come Anakin was able to get inside the blockade ship when the bad guys claimed that nothing could get through their shields?
 
Its literally nothing but lightsaber duels, thats all that happens.
There's a space battle too, and an action sequence through a spaceship, and the fight with the fart sticks droids, and Artoo's short fight with the battle droids, and the chase between Obi-Wan and Grievous, and the Order 66 vignettes. I think it's fair to say that there's quite a lot more than lightsaber duels.

Okay, its all just extended special effects sequences. Either way, the 'plot' is fitted around these action sequences, and not the other way around. Its like how in a video game you have a short bit of dialogue or something, then you immediately go in to the action, because thats what matters in a video game.

This is part of why I think TPM is objectively better, because that arent as many of those sequences, and they are more there for the story than the story being there for them. In ROTS its just so obvious that Lucas cant really be bothered with the dialogue scenes, that he just wanted to get them out of the way and continue with the action.
 
Okay, its all just extended special effects sequences. Either way, the 'plot' is fitted around these action sequences, and not the other way around. Its like how in a video game you have a short bit of dialogue or something, then you immediately go in to the action, because thats what matters in a video game.

This is part of why I think TPM is objectively better, because that arent as many of those sequences, and they are more there for the story than the story being there for them. In ROTS its just so obvious that Lucas cant really be bothered with the dialogue scenes, that he just wanted to get them out of the way and continue with the action.
I can't say this bothered me, to be honest, and I don't see how those two movies have different approaches. All six Star Wars movies, like most popcorn movies, are based on a very simple exposition-action scene-exposition-action scene structure.
 
But then how is it an average scifi adventure? What other average sci fi can you compare it to?

Average in that it compares favorably to other, standard blockbuster fare, such as The Transformers films, Avatar, ect.

TPM went from boring, dry political dialogue scenes to kiddie antics with Jar Jar. Nobody gave Lucas credit for creating a consistent tone in the prequels.
 
Okay, its all just extended special effects sequences. Either way, the 'plot' is fitted around these action sequences, and not the other way around. Its like how in a video game you have a short bit of dialogue or something, then you immediately go in to the action, because thats what matters in a video game.

This is part of why I think TPM is objectively better, because that arent as many of those sequences, and they are more there for the story than the story being there for them. In ROTS its just so obvious that Lucas cant really be bothered with the dialogue scenes, that he just wanted to get them out of the way and continue with the action.
I can't say this bothered me, to be honest, and I don't see how those two movies have different approaches. All six Star Wars movies, like most popcorn movies, are based on a very simple exposition-action scene-exposition-action scene structure.


I agree, I don't see a difference in approach between the two movies.

ROTS just happens to be very action-intensive because Lucas structured the PT in a way to leave a LOT of ground to cover in ROTS, so it's very fast-paced with the second half especially being almost one action sequence after another.
 
Okay, its all just extended special effects sequences. Either way, the 'plot' is fitted around these action sequences, and not the other way around. Its like how in a video game you have a short bit of dialogue or something, then you immediately go in to the action, because thats what matters in a video game.

This is part of why I think TPM is objectively better, because that arent as many of those sequences, and they are more there for the story than the story being there for them. In ROTS its just so obvious that Lucas cant really be bothered with the dialogue scenes, that he just wanted to get them out of the way and continue with the action.
I can't say this bothered me, to be honest, and I don't see how those two movies have different approaches. All six Star Wars movies, like most popcorn movies, are based on a very simple exposition-action scene-exposition-action scene structure.


I agree, I don't see a difference in approach between the two movies.

ROTS just happens to be very action-intensive because Lucas structured the PT in a way to leave a LOT of ground to cover in ROTS, so it's very fast-paced with the second half especially being almost one action sequence after another.

The difference between ROTS and TPM is that in TPM theres relatively few big action sequences, and they're all necessary to the story. Would you care to tell me in what way the fight between Yoda and Palpatine had anything to do with the story? They fight, neither wins or loses, and then Yoda just leaves... The only reason it was there was so we could have another lightsaber fight, and lightsaber fights are, like, really bitchin', right? Same goes for the huge fight with Grevious. It didnt need to be in the story, but its easier to have another big fight where a huge robot wields four lightsabers than try and write some good dialogue, or include Obi-wan in the film in a way that connects with the main story. Same with the buzz droids sequence, they could have taken that out and the film would have been totally the same. And do we really need to get into the 'epic' final duel? Swinging around on ropes above a river of lava?

I think the best duel in ROTS is actually the one between Palpatine and Mace Windu, because it only lasts about a minute, without dragging on for no reason.

As for the OT being the same, thats just plain wrong, with the exception of the ewok battle in ROTJ. If you look at ESB, generally considered the best, theres the opening action sequence of the battle on Hoth, and then thats pretty much it until the finale. I guess theres the bit in the asteroid field, but that only lasts a minute or two, then youre back to character development. Even the finale isnt really an 'action sequence'. Leia and co run away from the stormtroopers, its just basic shoot and run. Luke and Vader have their duel, but theres a clear structure to that duel, there isnt huge bit where the characters only fight, theres so much dialogue and development going on, which is all important to the overall story.

Vader is trying to get Luke angry, Luke is trying to resist that but take down Vader. The idea that Luke is reckless and possibly a bit too angry has been developed throughout the film, and his thirst to prove himself has been there from the get go. Additionally, his anger at Vader is well established, this is then challenged by Vaders revelation, and this is something that will continue to be developed until the duel in ROTJ. The fact that Vader wants Luke to join him, and Lukes sacrifice is also important in the continuing theme of the films. So that duel wasnt really an action sequence, it was a sequence in which characters and themes are further developed, and they happened to be fighting at the same time. Nothing like that could happen in the duel between Anakin and Obi-wan because they had already decided to kill each other, there wasnt anything there to develop, they also didnt even seem that close to begin with.

So did the really need a duel twice the length of Vader and Lukes? No.
 
I think a good case can be made within the story for why the Grievous-Obi-Wan and Yoda-Sidious fights are in there.

Obi-Wan had to be separated from Anakin for the story to work, and the mission was him going to take out the Separatist leader. I don't see anything gratuitous about that.

It also made logical sense to have a jedi master of Yoda's caliber go up against the emperor to try and stop him, and his failure provides a decent explanation for why he went into exile and tried a different path to help defeat the Empire in the end.


It just seems your being nit-picky. The pod race, Darth Maul fight, and Gungan/battle droid fight could all be nitpicked as gratuitous as well.
 
Obi-Wan had to be separated from Anakin for the story to work, and the mission was him going to take out the Separatist leader. I don't see anything gratuitous about that.

It also made logical sense to have a jedi master of Yoda's caliber go up against the emperor to try and stop him, and his failure provides a decent explanation for why he went into exile and tried a different path to help defeat the Empire in the end.


It just seems your being nit-picky. The pod race, Darth Maul fight, and Gungan/battle droid fight could all be nitpicked as gratuitous as well.

If it made logical sense for Yoda to go up against Palpatine, why didnt he just do it again? He didnt actually lose, it was a draw, when he says hes failed and leaves, he doesnt even know that Anakin has children who could one day defeat Palpatine. Maybe when Obi-wan got back he could have asked him to come and help. Wouldnt that have been logical?

I dont see how Anakin and Obi-wan really needed to be seperated. Its evident that Anakin isnt really interested in Obi-wans opinion anymore, I cant see Anakin not killing Mace because Obi-Wan happens to be on the same planet. The big problem with ROTS is that its only really a story about Anakin and the Emperor, so they just needed something for Obi-wan to do so he could be in the movie.

Obviously Im being a bit nitpicky, but I think these things have way less to do with the story than the things you mentioned in TPM. I suppose youre fight about the Gungun fight, since if that trade guy was captured, there wouldnt be any need to worry about the attack droids. Even so, theres a huge amount more gratuitious stuff in ROTS and AOTC.
 
Taking into account the original trilogy, there's really nothing that can justify Yoda's and especially Obi-wan's retirement after Revenge. Obi-wan is still a young man, especially for a Jedi, by the end of the film and yet he goes to collect his pension on Tatooine until Leia sends a message to him. Is it really more important to train with his master's ghost (for what exactly?) than organize the rebel alliance? He was already in his prime and had defeated Anakin in battle.

Finally, we saw how clones could massacre scores of Jedi without any Force abilities whatever. Thus, a rebel movement led by Yoda and Obi-wan immediately after the events of ROTS could have been sufficient to resist a still unsettled regime just emerging out of civil war.
 
Obi-Wan had to be separated from Anakin for the story to work, and the mission was him going to take out the Separatist leader. I don't see anything gratuitous about that.

It also made logical sense to have a jedi master of Yoda's caliber go up against the emperor to try and stop him, and his failure provides a decent explanation for why he went into exile and tried a different path to help defeat the Empire in the end.


It just seems your being nit-picky. The pod race, Darth Maul fight, and Gungan/battle droid fight could all be nitpicked as gratuitous as well.

If it made logical sense for Yoda to go up against Palpatine, why didnt he just do it again? He didnt actually lose, it was a draw, when he says hes failed and leaves, he doesnt even know that Anakin has children who could one day defeat Palpatine. Maybe when Obi-wan got back he could have asked him to come and help. Wouldnt that have been logical?

I dont see how Anakin and Obi-wan really needed to be seperated. Its evident that Anakin isnt really interested in Obi-wans opinion anymore, I cant see Anakin not killing Mace because Obi-Wan happens to be on the same planet. The big problem with ROTS is that its only really a story about Anakin and the Emperor, so they just needed something for Obi-wan to do so he could be in the movie.

Obviously Im being a bit nitpicky, but I think these things have way less to do with the story than the things you mentioned in TPM. I suppose youre fight about the Gungun fight, since if that trade guy was captured, there wouldnt be any need to worry about the attack droids. Even so, theres a huge amount more gratuitious stuff in ROTS and AOTC.


Well the logical thing would have been Yoda and Obi-Wan teaming up the first time to go after Sidious, since he was the bigger threat, and then once he was defeated, it would have been a much easier task for them together to go after Anakin.

Plot-necessitated stupidity, of course. But to me, it's no more evident in ROTS than it is in TPM.
 
I think the Plinkett reviews make a good point of showing how the lightsabaer battles in the PT is more like an elaborate dance, neither are really fighting or trying to kill the other it's just the typical "dance" between duelists. More like a fencing match than a real battle.

Now it looks good, don't get me wrong but at the same time it has no emotion or "realism" behind it. When Luke unleashes on Darth during his battle(s) with him it's emotional and raw. The battles in the OT feel like battles.

The "Duel of the Fates" battle between Obi-Won and Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul is good, with great music, but I'm still not really sure what the battle was over or why they were fighting beyond one being a bad guy and the others being good guys.

Really, I'm not even sure what Darth Maul's role was at all in that movie.
 
How come Anakin was able to get inside the blockade ship when the bad guys claimed that nothing could get through their shields?

Watch the scene again. Two droid ships are flying out at the same time Anakin is flying in. Therefore the hangar shield was down temporarily to let the droid ships out.
 
Well, that's shoddy design. The shield system should be penatratable by friendly ships. Otherwise, well, that's a flaw and an opportunity everyone would know about and take advanatage of.
 
Well, that's shoddy design. The shield system should be penatratable by friendly ships. Otherwise, well, that's a flaw and an opportunity everyone would know about and take advanatage of.

Not much different from the small weakness in the first Death Star. I never see any fans complaining about that. Tech in the SW universe is full of design flaws.
 
Trekker4747 said:
Otherwise, well, that's a flaw and an opportunity everyone would know about and take advanatage of.

It's not in any way practical to try and take advantage of it. How does the enemy know when ships will be flying out? What do you do, hover while the guns shoot at you? That's why Anakin only "takes advantage of it" by accident.

A logical fallacy is an error in logic. Saying that a group rules the galaxy when there are only two members is not logical. Hence, it is a logical fallacy.

No, that's not what "logical fallacy" means. Meanwhile, it is not in any way logical to say that a group with only two members cannot rule the galaxy when we saw that they did just that, and it was in the "almighty" OT. Even in the nonsensical alternate reality where two people can't run an empire, this would still be the OT's fault, not the PT's. So to create an imaginary error on the part of the PT in this case, one must shamelessly depart from reality in two significant ways.

TremblingBluStar said:
Vader approaching someone without saying a word isn't threatening? How about Hitler? Or Dracula? Or Jason Vorhees?

You're getting Vader confused with Cave Vader. Or changing the subject. Or something.

TremblingBluStar said:
We are talking about a Star Wars film, right? Not a comprehensive worldview or a view of science based on religion.

So when it comes to a Star Wars film, majorities are always right, but in every other area, majorities can be wrong? How did Star Wars get this magical exclusion from reality which applies to every other topic? And how is the religion of prequel hate any more reality-based than any other religion?

TremblingBluStar said:
You can't scientifically prove that people who find the prequels flawed are wrong.

That goes both ways. In an overarching sense you can't "scientifically prove" either that contention or its opposite. However, specific claims regarding the prequels by specific people can often be proven wrong, by finding them to be inaccurate due to examination of the films.
 
Well, that's shoddy design. The shield system should be penatratable by friendly ships. Otherwise, well, that's a flaw and an opportunity everyone would know about and take advanatage of.
:bolian:

I'm assuming this is humor, but, if it's not, forget the "Thumbs up". You need to look no further than various incarnations of Trek, where the shields had to be down to transport someone/something or to launch shuttles, probes, etc
 
No, that's not what "logical fallacy" means.
Yes it is.
Meanwhile, it is not in any way logical to say that a group with only two members cannot rule the galaxy when we saw that they did just that, and it was in the "almighty" OT.
You are not getting my meaning. I know that Vader and the Emperor were in charge (or the Emperor was, at least), but that doesn't give justification for saying the Sith rule the galaxy, given that there are presumably millions of others in charge who aren't Sith. There simply weren't enough of them to say they were ruling a galaxy, unless the Emperor could somehow magically control millions of other leaders.
Even in the nonsensical alternate reality where two people can't run an empire, this would still be the OT's fault, not the PT's.
The rule of two was stated in the PT, not the originals. Further, there was no mention on the originals of the Sith ruling the galaxy. We didn't even know the Emperor was a force user until the very end of Jedi!
You're getting Vader confused with Cave Vader. Or changing the subject. Or something.
Are you saying Luke knew that wasn't really Vader in the cave? I think you should rewatch the scene.
So when it comes to a Star Wars film, majorities are always right, but in every other area, majorities can be wrong? How did Star Wars get this magical exclusion from reality which applies to every other topic? And how is the religion of prequel hate any more reality-based than any other religion?
Religion of prequel hate? Seriously? :lol:
 
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