Perimeter Action Group Organization

[Mysterion]

What are the exploration goals of the PA group?

They don't have them as part of their mission. Anymore than the Grissom in ST3 had "defense goals". Somewhere there needs to be PA type ships so Kirk and those guys can swan around exploring stuff.

I would tend to think that these smaller and more mobile platforms would be used a lot more often on low-gravity worlds/asteroids, missions that involve space suits and advanced zero-gee training. That, IMO, would more than justify having a large fleet of such vessels since a lot of the more interesting resource finds in space aren't going to be buried in the crust of Class-M planets. Comet surfaces, dwarf planets, rings, abandoned satellites/space stations would also be the the primary responsibility of PA crews that are better trained for EVA work and, potentially, for zero-gravity combat.

I would point again to the Grissom-type ships for this work.

Being smaller and more mobile would also mean the PAs are a lot more likely to have to enforce traffic violations (civilian ships operating without a flight plan or crossing a border without a permit) and chasing smugglers and hijackers.

Absolutely.

Not really sure why these ships would need to be organized into "squadrons" except during wartime. Otherwise, they'd probably spend all of their time in lone-wolf patrol duty going on their various adventurers.

Re-read the OP. I say as much there.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Perhaps to some extent we can agree to disagree then. I'd have to go back and look at some of the earlier DS9 contacts with the Dominion, but I'm not sure I'd agree about the choice to send the Odyssey as being "brute force." The Dominion claimed to own the whole Gamma Quadrant and had made their displeasure with the wormhole known by destroying a number of colonies on the other side, and when the Odyssey took serious damage and was retreating, the Jem'Hadar destroyed it with a ramming attack to show how far they were willing to go. It wasn't necessary, but it made the point from a political perspective. The Odyssey was sent because it was meant to be a big gun from a political view as well as being capable enough (in theory) to accomplish the mission.

All of which is totally out of character for Starfleet, even assuming the knew somebody like the Dominion was lurking around on the other side of the wormhole. Their mission into the Gamma Quadrant was a rescue operation for Sisko's party, not a "show the flag/gunboat diplomacy" operation against an enemy they know nothing about and have had no prior contact with. The NORMAL procedure in cases like this is for Starfleet to send a small envoy with the intention of de-escalating the situation, trying to ascertain the true nature of the dispute and maybe come up with an agreement that avoids possible hostilities. Yet in this case, Starfleet jumps immediately to "Send a Galaxy class ship to try and intimidate them." Which, incidentally, plays right into the Dominion strategy for this operation, the goals of which were twofold:

a) Plant a Vorta informant in Starfleet in order to feed them misinformation about the Dominion and

b) Give the Federation the impression that they cannot be reasoned with or negotiated with and that the only way to deal with them is all-out war.

It's obvious that the Dominion knew that Sisko and Jake were coming into the Gamma Quadrant, knew when they were coming and why. It's just as obvious they knew the Odyssey was coming, and they knew what destroying the Odyssey would mean. And this is the Dominion we're talking about: If they're in a position to know all of these things, then they're in a position to manipulate circumstances in their favor. And I think that's EXACTLY what they did.

I tend to view Starfleet's actions in the war as being more consistent with those of the U.S. in any of its major wars, including the world wars.

Yes, and is therefore totally inconsistent with the way the Federation has conducted any of its major wars, or for that matter, sought to avoid major wars. A similar thing happens in "The Adversary" where a changeling convinces Sisko and his crew to go on a combat patrol along the Tzenkethi border in order to "show the flag" and next thing you know they're getting distress signals indicating that the Tzenkethi are attacking Federation colonies. Here, as before, the Dominion are appealing to Sisko's worst fears and his baser instincts of political superiority. And as with the Odyssey incident, as with the Battle of the Omarian Nebula, as with the attempted assassination of Gowron, he plays right into their hands.

But look at the lead up to the war: multiple military campaigns and sudden explosions of militaristic thinking in Alpha Quadrant races. The Klingons are conquering again, invading and occupying parts of Cardassia and later even attacking the Federation. The Romulans are reverting back to their old isolationist ways. The Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order are engaging in preemptive attacks with fleets of their own. Starfleet becoming heavily militarized even to the point of installing a junta in charge of the Federation. All of these turned out to be engineered by changelings.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe those are just the things we know about? How many other self-defeating military strategies did the Dominion whisper into Starfleet's ear just to undermine them from within? My guess is alot more than anyone wants to believe. I even go so far as to speculate that the Founders convinced Starfleet planners to draw resources away from more technically advanced designs like the Soverign and Defiant classes in favor of refitting huge numbers of Mirandas and Excelsiors just to increase their fleet sizes: they convinced Starfleet's top brass that the war was going to be a numbers game, and those officers bought that line of reasoning without realizing that the more advanced starships actually would have turned the tide once their commanders started finding ways to counteract Dominion technology.

The Dominion, unlike the Federation, has a whole military dedicated exclusively to combat and suppressing worlds the Founders control, and an infrastructure designed to support that arm. So I can see them having an advantage for the early phases of the war even if the Feds do everything right.

And yet the Dominion doesn't have a sophisticated core of scientists and engineers to support their military; almost ALL of their technological innovation came from Cardassia. There are indications that their technology and tactics have remained largely unchanged for decades if not centuries. If Starfleet found a way to counteract Dominion weapons and technology, their military superiority would evaporate extremely rapidly.

It's my firm believe that the Dominion knew this and their infiltrators kept Starfleet focussed on more conventional military strategies that they knew wouldn't actually work, partly because Starfleet wasn't particularly GOOD at those kinds of strategies but mainly because the Jem'hadar were specifically trained to DEFEAT those very same tactics. But it didn't completely work: the Federation DID, in the end, adapt to Dominion technology and tactics despite their interference.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What are the exploration goals of the PA group?

They don't have them as part of their mission. Anymore than the Grissom in ST3 had "defense goals". Somewhere there needs to be PA type ships so Kirk and those guys can swan around exploring stuff.

But Kirk and those guys "swan around" fighting battles too. It's also premature to assume Grissom had no defense goals, considering Kirk's question: "What's Grissom up to? Will she join us or will she fire on us?"

If the Enterprise is expected to defend the border when needed, then the PAs should be expected to research an asteroid or two. Every ship in Starfleet has at least one secondary mission role, even if they aren't specialized for it. I don't see the PAs being an exception.

I would point again to the Grissom-type ships for this work.

How do you know the Grissom isn't an older-model Perimeter action ship?

 

[Unicron]

All of which is totally out of character for Starfleet, even assuming the knew somebody like the Dominion was lurking around on the other side of the wormhole. Their mission into the Gamma Quadrant was a rescue operation for Sisko's party, not a "show the flag/gunboat diplomacy" operation against an enemy they know nothing about and have had no prior contact with. The NORMAL procedure in cases like this is for Starfleet to send a small envoy with the intention of de-escalating the situation, trying to ascertain the true nature of the dispute and maybe come up with an agreement that avoids possible hostilities. Yet in this case, Starfleet jumps immediately to "Send a Galaxy class ship to try and intimidate them."

I'd say it was a combination of both (rescue and showing the flag). DS9 didn't have any dedicated starships, and Keogh only agreed to take the runabouts as escorts because Dax insisted on that approach. If the Dominion is blatantly attacking your ships in another quadrant, stealing your personnel, and all of the available information says they consider themselves rulers of that area of space, what likelihood is there that a smaller envoy would be more likely to succeed? The events of "The Search" made it clear that the Dominion wasn't interested in negotiations, but they also weren't yet ready for a full scale war against the AQ powers.

Which, incidentally, plays right into the Dominion strategy for this operation, the goals of which were twofold:

a) Plant a Vorta informant in Starfleet in order to feed them misinformation about the Dominion and

b) Give the Federation the impression that they cannot be reasoned with or negotiated with and that the only way to deal with them is all-out war.

It's obvious that the Dominion knew that Sisko and Jake were coming into the Gamma Quadrant, knew when they were coming and why. It's just as obvious they knew the Odyssey was coming, and they knew what destroying the Odyssey would mean. And this is the Dominion we're talking about: If they're in a position to know all of these things, then they're in a position to manipulate circumstances in their favor. And I think that's EXACTLY what they did.

I think the goal of b) wasn't to cause a direct war, but to make the Feds believe they should avert war by just giving the Dominion what they wanted and not even fight. We're told that's how the Jem'Hadar are employed even if you're invited to join the Dominion and politely refuse. The Founders don't like to take no for an answer because they're control freaks.

Yes, and is therefore totally inconsistent with the way the Federation has conducted any of its major wars, or for that matter, sought to avoid major wars. A similar thing happens in "The Adversary" where a changeling convinces Sisko and his crew to go on a combat patrol along the Tzenkethi border in order to "show the flag" and next thing you know they're getting distress signals indicating that the Tzenkethi are attacking Federation colonies. Here, as before, the Dominion are appealing to Sisko's worst fears and his baser instincts of political superiority. And as with the Odyssey incident, as with the Battle of the Omarian Nebula, as with the attempted assassination of Gowron, he plays right into their hands.

But how many full scale wars did we actually see on Trek before the Dominion War? The closest one I can think of off the top of my head is the war that was about to occur between the Feds and the Klingons in "Errand of Mercy" which Kirk was perfectly willing to fight until the Organians forced both parties to avert it. Having the goal of averting wars shouldn't mean that your state isn't prepared to fight one, even if there's the possibility that a clever enemy could use its resources to try and spark a war with a different neighbor.

But look at the lead up to the war: multiple military campaigns and sudden explosions of militaristic thinking in Alpha Quadrant races. The Klingons are conquering again, invading and occupying parts of Cardassia and later even attacking the Federation. The Romulans are reverting back to their old isolationist ways. The Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order are engaging in preemptive attacks with fleets of their own. Starfleet becoming heavily militarized even to the point of installing a junta in charge of the Federation. All of these turned out to be engineered by changelings.

I agree with you that the Dominion excelled in manipulation and getting the other powers to take actions that would ideally benefit them, but I think it's also fair to say that most of those actions made logical sense in the face of an enemy that has at least equal (and possibly superior) technology and can imitate other beings.

There's a difference between what I'd describe as being overly militaristic in thought and action and taking logical precautions to defend yourself, like when DS9 was upgraded to repel a potential Dominion invasion. Had that not happened, it would have fallen to the Klingons and the Dominion would still have a huge advantage. The combined Romulan/Cardassian fleet may have failed because the Founders have excellent espionage skills, but that doesn't mean the basic plan wasn't potentially sound. Suppose it had worked for the sake of argument and the fleet succeeded in killing a lot of Founders?

In short, what it comes down to is that it's possible to take the logical course of action and still play into an enemy's hands. That's what real manipulation is about.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe those are just the things we know about? How many other self-defeating military strategies did the Dominion whisper into Starfleet's ear just to undermine them from within? My guess is alot more than anyone wants to believe. I even go so far as to speculate that the Founders convinced Starfleet planners to draw resources away from more technically advanced designs like the Soverign and Defiant classes in favor of refitting huge numbers of Mirandas and Excelsiors just to increase their fleet sizes: they convinced Starfleet's top brass that the war was going to be a numbers game, and those officers bought that line of reasoning without realizing that the more advanced starships actually would have turned the tide once their commanders started finding ways to counteract Dominion technology.

I think perhaps we should again agree to disagree, because I can see where you're going and I think you have some interesting ideas. But I also don't think the fact that we saw older designs commonly used in the war means that Starfleet was dumb enough not to use as many cutting edge ships as they could afford to. We saw that by the time hostilities broke out, they had advanced quite a bit from when the Odyssey got its butt kicked and even Weyoun was surprised when the station held out for a while before the Dominion captured it. And Weyoun had Dukat on his side, who had been Sisko's ally only a short time before and was intimately familiar with DS9.

And yet the Dominion doesn't have a sophisticated core of scientists and engineers to support their military; almost ALL of their technological innovation came from Cardassia. There are indications that their technology and tactics have remained largely unchanged for decades if not centuries. If Starfleet found a way to counteract Dominion weapons and technology, their military superiority would evaporate extremely rapidly.

You may be right, but my point was that having such a specific military arm means the Dominion doesn't have to waste the same amount of time and resources that the alliance did when it came to updating their technology or ships. They can actually afford to rely on brute force tactics because that's what the Jem'Hadar were bred for.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The events of "The Search" made it clear that the Dominion wasn't interested in negotiations, but they also weren't yet ready for a full scale war against the AQ powers.

Those events also made it clear that the Dominion didn't want the wormhole destroyed and didn't want the Alpha Quadrant to consider disengagement was a valid option. Which means their original justification in "The Jem'hadar" is as much bullshit as Eris' backstory. They're not mad about territory violations or Federation expansion. They're conquerers: they want to establish hegemony EVERYWHERE.

I agree with you that the Dominion excelled in manipulation and getting the other powers to take actions that would ideally benefit them, but I think it's also fair to say that most of those actions made logical sense in the face of an enemy that has at least equal (and possibly superior) technology and can imitate other beings.

That's just it: it's not at all clear that the Dominion WAS technologically superior. Nor did any of the anti-changeling tactics actually prove effective at catching changelings; this is, apparently, because it was the CHANGELINGS THEMSELVES who came up with those tactics.

There's a difference between what I'd describe as being overly militaristic in thought and action and taking logical precautions to defend yourself, like when DS9 was upgraded to repel a potential Dominion invasion. Had that not happened, it would have fallen to the Klingons and the Dominion would still have a huge advantage.

And yet the Klingon invasion of Cardassia turned out to be a Changeling idea in the first place. And the invasion of Cardassia is exactly what allowed the Dominion to gain a strategic foothold in the Alpha Quadrant in the first place.

DS9's upgraded defenses may not have been part of this pattern (it IS a strategically valuable station, after all) but Starfleet's overall strategy for dealing with the Dominion -- especially after the outbreak of war -- smacks of Changeling influence.

Suppose it had worked for the sake of argument and the fleet succeeded in killing a lot of Founders?

That's just it: It was Founders who came up with the plan in the first place. True, it was originally Tain's idea to preemptively take out the Founders' home world, but none of that would have actually been possible without the Founders' helping the plan take shape. It's not even certain that Tain thought the idea was totally worth pursuing before the Founders convinced him that it was actually doable.

You may be right, but my point was that having such a specific military arm means the Dominion doesn't have to waste the same amount of time and resources that the alliance did when it came to updating their technology or ships. They can actually afford to rely on brute force tactics because that's what the Jem'Hadar were bred for.

And that, as I've said, is actually the Dominion's weakness: brute force methods are the ONLY methods they can use. They're not good at handling unconventional responses: the Jem'hadar lack adaptability (all they can really do is fight) and the Vorta lack imagination. The Founders are clearly smart enough to cope with sudden changes in the enemy's tactics, but there aren't that many of them on the battlefield and they value their own lives too much to expose themselves to combat on any regular basis.

If Starfleet had played to its own strengths, it would have very soon discovered a technical or tactical solution to the Jem'Hadar Zurg Rush. The Jem'Hadar have exactly ZERO capacity to adjust their tactics to match, and the Vorta only do what they're told and therefore aren't much better off. On the other hand, the strategy of beating the Dominion at their own game -- by meeting force with even greater force in giant epic shooting matches -- utterly failed nearly every time Starfleet tried it. ALL of their successes involved either covert action, unconventional tactics or technological innovation. It got to the point that even the KLINGONS started brushing up on their science skills in order to be more effective against the Dominion.

I know you don't agree, but I'm convinced that the idea to try and defeat the Dominion in a knock-down-drag-out slugfest of starship-on-starship firepower in pithced fleet action was, for the most part, an idea the Changelings came up with to distract Starfleet from more effective alternatives. Much as I commend Rom for coming up with the self-replicating minefield, CHANGELING Rom would have "discovered" some way of beaming through Jem'hadar shields and then told Sisko it would be possible to beam a heavily armed away team onto the Jem'hadar flag ship as soon as it came into range.

 

[Ithekro]

The Dominion might have had a disadvantage due to the blockade of the Wormhole (in one form or another) for the entire war. This cut off their Alpha Quadrant holding from their Delta Quadrant holdings. They might have had a dozen science specialist races under their wings, but they and the rest of the fleet was stuck. They made due with what they managed to bring over in those months before the minefield went up and with whatever they could get out of the Cardassians and later Breen.

 

[aridas sofia]

I want to make as clear as I can the thinking behind the perimeter action category. I was there and involved with developing it, but it was definitely Todd Guenther that came up with the idea. Broadly speaking, they were an attempt to take the emerging utopianism of Roddenberry in TMP and TNG and reconcile it with what we saw in TOS. It was also an attempt to make such utopianism make practical sense. The one thing I recall us discissing was how a somewhat pacifist nation like Japan, Sweden or Switzerland could only exist in a peace maintained by power(s) willing to wage war. How can the utopian goals of Roddenberry's Federation be maintained unless someone is willing to do the dirty work of protecting and advancing that society's vital interests? It isn't that SotSF depicts Star Fleet as militarist (though that's the way other powers -and especially the Klingon Empire - see them). They're pragmatic. Part of that pragmatism is a defense strategy. Part is an exploration strategy. They aren't at odds but rather, to apply an overused term, synergistic.

Specifically, the PA evolves from smaller clipper ships (think Baltimore clippers) deployed along vital spacelanes during the 4YW as a picket force and stopgap to buy time for a second shell of defense to be pulled forward. They are the alarm and sprinkler system that buys time until the fire truck arrives. The concept is refined in the wake if encounters during the 5YM- among which were the Orion ships encountered during "Babel" and the Tholian webspinners. Small ships with the ability to rapidly shift the vast majority of their power output to either stealth, shields, speed or weapons, and thus present a much more formidable platform than would otherwise be possible. They have nearly the power generating capability of a cruiser in a much less massive package. But it all comes at a cost- tactically they are tough to handle at warp, require unique tactics to maximize their "switching" capabilities in combat, and obviously press the human capacity for undiverted focus to a goal to its maximum. They thus have engendered an "esprit de corps" unique in the space service and a mystique among those outside their ranks.

Ultimately this was two guys attempt to make seeming conundrums about the Roddenberry universe make some sense. That universe has evolved in different directions since the 1990s, so it is no surprise the particular picture we painted might seem a bit ill-fitting today. It also isn't the picture anyone else would paint. But it was, for its time, a damned popular portrayal, believe me. A lot of those books were printed by any measure, and for a fan publication, it was all rather amazing.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Ultimately this was two guys attempt to make seeming conundrums about the Roddenberry universe make some sense. That universe has evolved in different directions since the 1990s, so it is no surprise the particular picture we painted might seem a bit ill-fitting today. It also isn't the picture anyone else would paint. But it was, for its time, a damned popular portrayal, believe me.

I believe you. I bought three of them when I was in high school. Damn fine work.

Not to be overly nitpicky on this, but I really do believe it's easier to reconcile the Utopianist vision if one interprets Starfleet as achieving dominance through the deployment of Overwhelming Science. To use the Japan example: the country could still remain pacifist even in the absence of U.S. military cover if the JSDF cultivated the kind of technological superiority that could utterly neutralize any offensive, even from an enemy with tremendous numerical superiority. This is kind of the premise of the Ghost in the Shell anime/Mangas, where Japan is depicted as coming out from under the thumb of the American Empire by embracing cybernetics and information warfare; this made their military formidable enough that they were a major player in the Third World War despite their armed forces being less than a fraction of the size of the Empire.

The nature of the Federation would make this an easy advantage to protect. They may not have the biggest fleet around, but they have the combined technical knowledge of a thousand worlds and all of their best scientists. Klingon engineers might take six months to analyze the Borg and come up with a way to overcome their adaptations; Starfleet can do the same trick in six hours.

 

[John Clark]

They weren't that easy to get here, but I managed to pick this one up a few years back. I thought it was decent.

 

[aridas sofia]

I like the Ghost in the Shell universe. It was actually Todd that made me aware of it some years ago.

The scenario of technological dominance that you paint was the other route we considered. The reasons we ultimately went the other way were twofold. On the one hand, it didn't seem to fit with the almost technophobic attitudes presented vis a vis AI and human modification in TOS. Space Seed, Ultimate Computer, Court Martial etc. led us to consider the possibility that the Earth that led to the TOS Starfleet had either come to the brink of something like singularity and turned back, or had partially undergone such a transformation with "old" humans under some kind of protective (or purely observational) "umbrella" provided by post-humans. We talked about the advanced races encountered in TOS - Metrons and Organians and the rest - as being some of the post-humans that had transcended the bounds of space and time in Earth's 21st century past and were now orchestrating bits and pieces of the events we witnessed onscreen. That had more mystery and unknown as a part of it than just having the "old" humans be dominant (which seemed to lack the kind of dramatic potential we thought the creators of new Trek episodes would want).

 

[Unicron]

That's just it: it's not at all clear that the Dominion WAS technologically superior. Nor did any of the anti-changeling tactics actually prove effective at catching changelings; this is, apparently, because it was the CHANGELINGS THEMSELVES who came up with those tactics.

They seemed to do pretty well against the Galaxy class early on, until Starfleet began developing countermeasures. And I have to disagree about every anti-changeling tactic being flawed, because we've seen stun beams and blood screenings be effective. There's also the potential limitation that Odo has to regenerate every 16 hours or so, and the same would apply to a Changeling infiltrator if they had the bad luck to be caught at the wrong time. Not very likely to happen, but the possibility exists.

And yet the Klingon invasion of Cardassia turned out to be a Changeling idea in the first place. And the invasion of Cardassia is exactly what allowed the Dominion to gain a strategic foothold in the Alpha Quadrant in the first place.

Yes, but the invasion was a tactic the Dominion took advantage of after an event they seemingly didn't have a direct hand in according to the dialogue - the civilian coup on Cardassia. Aside from planting the Martok Founder and letting things progress from there, there's no evidence the Founders did anywhere near the potential damage they could have done. And once Sisko was able to expose the false Martok, the wedge between the Feds and the Klingons vanished and they were fighting both powers when the war broke out. Not one.

That's just it: It was Founders who came up with the plan in the first place. True, it was originally Tain's idea to preemptively take out the Founders' home world, but none of that would have actually been possible without the Founders' helping the plan take shape. It's not even certain that Tain thought the idea was totally worth pursuing before the Founders convinced him that it was actually doable.

How do you know? I haven't watched the ep for ages so my memory isn't perfect, but I don't seem to recall anything that suggests the two intelligence orders couldn't have pulled it off in a best case scenario and done a lot of damage to the Dominion, if they didn't actually kill the Founders outright. It was said that Tain originated the plan and the Founders took advantage of it to make it an ambush instead of a preemptive strike, but again to me that sounds like they took an opportunity that presented itself.

And that, as I've said, is actually the Dominion's weakness: brute force methods are the ONLY methods they can use. They're not good at handling unconventional responses: the Jem'hadar lack adaptability (all they can really do is fight) and the Vorta lack imagination. The Founders are clearly smart enough to cope with sudden changes in the enemy's tactics, but there aren't that many of them on the battlefield and they value their own lives too much to expose themselves to combat on any regular basis.

If Starfleet had played to its own strengths, it would have very soon discovered a technical or tactical solution to the Jem'Hadar Zurg Rush. The Jem'Hadar have exactly ZERO capacity to adjust their tactics to match, and the Vorta only do what they're told and therefore aren't much better off. On the other hand, the strategy of beating the Dominion at their own game -- by meeting force with even greater force in giant epic shooting matches -- utterly failed nearly every time Starfleet tried it. ALL of their successes involved either covert action, unconventional tactics or technological innovation. It got to the point that even the KLINGONS started brushing up on their science skills in order to be more effective against the Dominion.

I know you don't agree, but I'm convinced that the idea to try and defeat the Dominion in a knock-down-drag-out slugfest of starship-on-starship firepower in pithced fleet action was, for the most part, an idea the Changelings came up with to distract Starfleet from more effective alternatives. Much as I commend Rom for coming up with the self-replicating minefield, CHANGELING Rom would have "discovered" some way of beaming through Jem'hadar shields and then told Sisko it would be possible to beam a heavily armed away team onto the Jem'hadar flag ship as soon as it came into range.

Actually, I do agree with some of your points here. I just don't see Starfleet's tactics in using large fleets or numbers as inherently being the same sort of brute force as you describe, and I don't entirely agree that the Jem'Hadar are that inflexible (but I do think you're largely correct in a lot of ways about the Dominion hierarchy). I see it more that the alliance didn't want to be potentially overwhelmed because the Dominion and the Cardassians spent much of the early war on the offensive, and being able to breed Jem'Hadar as troops has a number of advantages over trying to meet manpower shortages. I also think that if the Founders could provide the level of manipulation you suggest, they would certainly never have allowed for events like the Romulans becoming an enemy to have occurred as we saw it in "Pale Moonlight." I tend to think they would certainly have planned for such a war but that it would have been a new, undesirable front at that point in time, and that's where the Breen came in as a balance.

My apologies if this debate has derailed the thread too much from the original topic, but I've enjoyed parts of it. I hope, Crazy Eddie, we can just agree to disagree on some things. I'm kind of mixed because I think we'd all agree that Starfleet's ability to build ships that can multitask is a benefit, but I can also see having smaller specialized designs like the PAs who specialize in one particular mission profile for specific crisis.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

They seemed to do pretty well against the Galaxy class early on, until Starfleet began developing countermeasures. And I have to disagree about every anti-changeling tactic being flawed, because we've seen stun beams and blood screenings be effective.

Stun beams have only been effective against Odo, to be sure. And blood screenings have actually NEVER been effective; the very first time they tried it, the changeling used the blood test to implicate Eddington as a changeling. Blood screenings were already being used by the DS9 crew in the leadup to the Dominion War and yet we learned later that Bashir had been replaced by a changeling for months without anyone knowing about it.

There's also the potential limitation that Odo has to regenerate every 16 hours or so, and the same would apply to a Changeling infiltrator if they had the bad luck to be caught at the wrong time. Not very likely to happen, but the possibility exists.

So how come "put him under strict observation for forty eight hours and see if he regenerates" was never used as a security measure? The Bashir and Martok changelings could have been revealed by this method easily, unless the Founders somehow managed to talk Starfleet security and Klingon intelligence into believing that this particular limitation was unique to Odo.

Yes, but the invasion was a tactic the Dominion took advantage of after an event they seemingly didn't have a direct hand in according to the dialogue - the civilian coup on Cardassia. Aside from planting the Martok Founder and letting things progress from there, there's no evidence the Founders did anywhere near the potential damage they could have done.

Though not for lack of trying. Martok-changeling's choice of tactics and policies were clearly engineered not only to put the Klingons onto a path of conventional military buildup and conquest, but to destroy the alliance between the Klingons and the Federation and maybe even lead them to all-out war.

And once Sisko was able to expose the false Martok, the wedge between the Feds and the Klingons vanished

Exactly. This leads me to believe that the conflict between the Federation and the Empire was almost ENTIRELY Martok's doing, and the fact that he turned out to be a changeling completely invalidated everything he had done up to that point.

How do you know? I haven't watched the ep for ages so my memory isn't perfect, but I don't seem to recall anything that suggests the two intelligence orders couldn't have pulled it off in a best case scenario and done a lot of damage to the Dominion, if they didn't actually kill the Founders outright. It was said that Tain originated the plan and the Founders took advantage of it to make it an ambush instead of a preemptive strike, but again to me that sounds like they took an opportunity that presented itself.

Tain's Tal'Shiar counterpart in the operation was himself a Changeling; he later explained that the Founders learned of the plan and "did everything possible to carry it forward." Even Odo suggested that this entire situation was a setup from the beginning, and the Changeling halfway confirmed this.

Whatever the Obsidian Order or the Tal'Shiar would have done on their own, it wouldn't have been a fleet action and it CERTAINLY wouldn't have exposed the bulk of their manpower to direct retaliation the way it did. Considering the Tal'Shiar agent was a changeling the entire time, it's not even certain the Romulans would have bothered to get involved without the Founders pushing for that.

Actually, I do agree with some of your points here. I just don't see Starfleet's tactics in using large fleets or numbers as inherently being the same sort of brute force as you describe, and I don't entirely agree that the Jem'Hadar are that inflexible (but I do think you're largely correct in a lot of ways about the Dominion hierarchy). I see it more that the alliance didn't want to be potentially overwhelmed because the Dominion and the Cardassians spent much of the early war on the offensive, and being able to breed Jem'Hadar as troops has a number of advantages over trying to meet manpower shortages. I also think that if the Founders could provide the level of manipulation you suggest, they would certainly never have allowed for events like the Romulans becoming an enemy to have occurred as we saw it in "Pale Moonlight."

Sneaky as the Founders are, Garak is sneakier. The same can be said for Section 31, IMO: they managed to develop an anti-changeling virus and then infect Odo with it, all without the Founders catching on.

My apologies if this debate has derailed the thread too much from the original topic, but I've enjoyed parts of it. I hope, Crazy Eddie, we can just agree to disagree on some things.

My honor will not allow this.

We must fight to the death.

I think we'd all agree that Starfleet's ability to build ships that can multitask is a benefit, but I can also see having smaller specialized designs like the PAs who specialize in one particular mission profile for specific crisis.

That's just it, it's not like I don't think the PA ships wouldn't specialize in the combat role. It's that I think that almost everything Starfleet builds has at least SOME science capability, if only so that they have something useful to do during peacetime. The PAs would be no exception. That may not be what they're optimized for, but it's what they spend most of their time doing when they're not responding to border violations from hostile forces.

Of course, I could be totally wrong about that; they could be a bunch of hangar queens that spend ninety percent of their time parked in a space dock waiting for something to happen (kinda like the Defiant).

 

[aridas sofia]

More that they'd be parked at station keeping at the intersection of two strong chi routes (space lanes) where predictive algorithms have indicated the likelihood for incursion is high. Sitting. Waiting. Might they engage in scientific inquiry while they wait? Well, since it just isn't part of their mission profile, I think it unlikely. The exception rather than the rule. But they are Star Fleet and if something noteworthy demands investigation and that investigation doesn't detract from the mission in any way, maybe.

 

[Ithekro]

I'd see them spending most of their time patrolling. Anti-piracy and interdicting smugglers, while also doing border patrol work in order to free up the large multi-purpose ships for other duties. Covering the vastness of Federation Space with only a hundred or few hundred small ships might be all that keeps the Starships from doing the more boring work and actively do star charting, diplomacy, exploration, and other stuff.

 

[aridas sofia]

One cool aspect that Todd wrote about but was never really fleshed out was the use of PAs as special ops platforms. Specially trained Surface Action Specialists were seen as a routine part of the ship's complement. But not special ops as we think of it- more a 23rd century mix of SEAL team and Impossible Mission force with a diplomatic/first contact component thrown in for good measure.

 

[JES]

It doesn't have any mounts firing directly aft, if that's what you mean. The vessels that do retain the twin single mounts have them in ventral aft mounts on the section connecting to the nacelles. The rear torpedo tubes are situated lower.

No, the schematics have what seem to depict phaser banks flanking those said aft torpedo tubes.

At least, I think they're phaser banks. Maybe they're tractor beam emitters? Or little mine layer hatches?

 

[Mysterion]

One cool aspect that Todd wrote about but was never really fleshed out was the use of PAs as special ops platforms. Specially trained Surface Action Specialists were seen as a routine part of the ship's complement. But not special ops as we think of it- more a 23rd century mix of SEAL team and Impossible Mission force with a diplomatic/first contact component thrown in for good measure.

Something along these lines, maybe:

Technical Assessment and Contact Team (TACT)
(or perhaps STRICT (Specialized Technical Reconnaissance, Intelligence, and Contact Team)
CAT (Contact and Assessment Team)


Mission - A rapidly deployable team of personnel who can be sent to a newly contacted alien vessel, society, what have you to facilitate first contact with indigenous beings, and asses their level of technological achievement.

Personnel: Two officers trained in first contact methodologies/strategies as well as diplomatic protocols. Should also be grounded in at least the generalities of some scientific/technical field(s). In addition, eight non-commissioned officers (Petty Officers or Chief Petty Officers). These personnel are highly trained specialists, two each in the following field specialization areas:

Weapons/Defense - serve as force protection for the team as well as to evaluate defense/offense technology being encountered.

Communications/Linguistics - keeps the team in contact with base as well as facilitating communication with aliens encountered.

Medical/Bio-Sciences - Evaluate species encountered to determine physical make-up, and to determine and act upon any bio threat posed by the team to the aliens, or by the aliens to the team.

Engineering - Evaluate spacecraft and other technological systems being encountered.

This gives a total team of ten personnel. The duplication in skill-sets enables the team to be split into two five-person teams to be able to cover a larger area in less time if necessary (I've based this loosely on the organization of present-day US Army Special forces (i.e. "green beret") teams.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

One cool aspect that Todd wrote about but was never really fleshed out was the use of PAs as special ops platforms. Specially trained Surface Action Specialists were seen as a routine part of the ship's complement. But not special ops as we think of it- more a 23rd century mix of SEAL team and Impossible Mission force with a diplomatic/first contact component thrown in for good measure.

Now THAT is an intriguing idea. The clandestine Starfleet team at the beginning of "Insurrection" comes to mind, although that was depicted as a more regular attachment.

Kind of seems like the PA's surface teams would be the sort of guys who specialize in operations like the one Kirk and Spock tried to pull off on Organia. Make nice with the locals, build bridges where possible, and above all else, prevent hostile elements from using their planet as a base.

 

[Unicron]

No, the schematics have what seem to depict phaser banks flanking those said aft torpedo tubes.

At least, I think they're phaser banks. Maybe they're tractor beam emitters? Or little mine layer hatches?

They're not labeled as such, and I'm actually not quite sure what those specific parts are because I couldn't see any labels on them in my copy of SotSF V2. The list of weapons and specialized equipment for the different variants is being pulled directly from that. Perhaps aridas might know the answer?

I like the idea of the PAs being the equivalent of special ops and such. I do think Eddie has a point that they wouldn't be entirely unable to do exploratory functions, but I don't see it as their main job. Much like how quite a few sources I've read have given the dreadnoughts the capacity to explore like a cruiser, but personally I'd see that as a highly secondary function.

 

[aridas sofia]

I don't have my volume of SotSF2 handy at the moment, but if I'm thinking of the same thing you guys seem to be discussing, there are modular, "plug and play" hatches where various sensor pallets can be loaded as needed. There are also hatches for mine launchers. I'd have to look at the specific illustrations again to recall exactly which were where, but I'm pretty sure it's one of those two.

"Errand of Mercy" and the whole Organian operation were definitely on our minds. I recall that being one of the things Todd mentioned as something a specially trained and equipped team would handle better than a captain and first officer of the first -admittedly impressive- ship that reached the area.