People in the UFP don't get paid. They don't get paid!!

[Deimos Anomaly]

It sounds like the most whacked out Communist wet dream or something.

Taking Picard's "money doesn't exist" "we don't get paid" statements literally: How does the UFP function?

Is there some kind of drug automatically spiked into all foodstuffs by the replicators that feed everyone, designed to suppress normal human nature?

Also: If Starfleet officers and crew don't get paid, how do they buy stuff from peoples and in jurisdictions where a currency-based economy still exists (on a certain well known Bajoran, formally-Cardassian space station for example).

 

[CaptJimboJones]

This is something I never understood and frankly see as one of the weaker points of the Trek universe. But in reality, it has very little impact on what we really see onscreen - it's just something that characters mention once in a great while but it's never explained and they certainly don't attempt to show how this currency-free economy would work.

 

[Sci]

Considering that Trek actually provides contradictory evidence -- there are numerous references to payment throughout TOS and TNG-era shows, combined with numerous references to a lack of money... My theory is that the Federation combines capitalism and socialism. The essentials of healthy living -- food, water, shelter, medical care -- are provided for free, but if you want luxuries, you have to earn them. In other words, you COULD, if you wanted to, live your life without ever having to get a job or pay for anything or do anything with yourself... But, if you want a luxury -- if you want that house on the beachfront, or if you want to buy that nice holoprogram, or whatever -- then you have to earn it by earning money and paying for it.

To me, that seems entirely fair and fairly utopian.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

Sci said:
Considering that Trek actually provides contradictory evidence -- there are numerous references to payment throughout TOS and TNG-era shows, combined with numerous references to a lack of money... My theory is that the Federation combines capitalism and socialism. The essentials of healthy living -- food, water, shelter, medical care -- are provided for free, but if you want luxuries, you have to earn them. In other words, you COULD, if you wanted to, live your life without ever having to get a job or pay for anything or do anything with yourself... But, if you want a luxury -- if you want that house on the beachfront, or if you want to buy that nice holoprogram, or whatever -- then you have to earn it by earning money and paying for it.

To me, that seems entirely fair and fairly utopian.

That's a pretty good theory. :thumbsup:

 

[John Picard]

Deimos Anomaly said:
It sounds like the most whacked out Communist wet dream or something.

Taking Picard's "money doesn't exist" "we don't get paid" statements literally: How does the UFP function?

Is there some kind of drug automatically spiked into all foodstuffs by the replicators that feed everyone, designed to suppress normal human nature?

Also: If Starfleet officers and crew don't get paid, how do they buy stuff from peoples and in jurisdictions where a currency-based economy still exists (on a certain well known Bajoran, formally-Cardassian space station for example).

Picard noted, in First Contact that, (paraphrased) "Economics are a bit different in the 24th Century." That's how writers slowly got themselves out of the "money doesn't exists" can of worms that TOS opened back in the 1960's.

 

[Deimos Anomaly]

Actually, what Picard said was "The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century"

Lily then said, somewhat incredulously "You mean you don't get paid??"

Picard then came out with some vague wishy washy line, "We work to better ourselves, and for the good of humanity". Sounds more like a mantra than anything else, that. And I fail to see where an absence of money factors into that. I work to better myself too - I do this by working to earn money which I can then spend, thus bettering myself. (Actually, as I work for a major NI-based international provider of trial services to pharma companies, I can also in fact truthfully claim to be working for the good of humanity!)

 

[TeutonicNights]

Well we see O'Brien buy stuff from the Bajoran shops or at Quark's (like him and Bashir got no refund in "You are cordially invited"), so there has to be at least a special arrangement for those cases.
I think sci's theory is quite plausible.

 

[UnknownSample]

Capitalism engineers a society so that most people have to do what will make or save them money, most of the time. You can fight the kind of shifting of values and priorities that this causes, but it's hard. We can't even tell that it's happening, for the most part.

In Trek it's a sort of technologically-created socialism. They lucked out when someone invented replicators.... no messy class wars needed for the transition. They haven't dealt with how you satisfy people's needs and not have them turn complacent or lazy, but I'm guessing there weren't many overfed, complacent people after WW3. They may have learned some other lessons in the 21st and 22nd centuries that we don't know about. People can develop better, more responsible characters.

They get credits. I don't know how much they get if they choose not to contribute to the society through work. A lot less I'm guessing... but I don't think there's a big discrepancy between rich and poor. That collector in Next Gen's "The Most Toys" had to live outside of the law and the Federation.

 

[Hofner]

Well, in DS9's "In The Cards" Jake mooched Nog's latinum from him although he ended up not needing it after all. I wonder if he gave it back?

Robert

 

[Deks]

OK ... let's recap.

Humans in the 24th century as Picard described them do not pursue material aspects as contemporary humans do.

Since humanity evolved in those aspects, money non existing, I would say that people really have a trade system and everyone shares resources for the 'greater good of society'.

Jobs for example are readily available to everyone, there is no shortage of food, energy and what not thanks to new power generation systems and replicators.

People also don't have to work if they don't want to, but most would just go stir crazy most of the time from doing nothing as they would get into a routine, and heck everyone start to work sooner or later.

I'm guessing education is mandatory, and after that they are free to go/do whatever they want.

Also keep under consideration that what you perceive today as unrealistic for Trek and it's economy, that Trek IS set in the future.
Introductions of new technologies and the will to work together, setting aside prejudice and what not can mean a lot.

They only use currency when dealing with aliens such as Quark for example or races who still use currency.

Are we certain they get credits ?
I doubt it.

I'm guessing the Feds have a 'ration distribution' system.
Like replicator rations.
Everyone are entitled to a certain amount of rations for things like replicator use and whatnot.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The invention of the replicator killed off capitalism. When you can get anything you want from a magic box, why work to make money? You might still work, but it won't be for money.

Note that in Kirk's time, people DID get paid. No replicators then, either. Kirk talked about Scotty "earning his pay" and Starfleet fought over resources on several occasions - Devil in the Dark, The Trouble with Tribbles, Elaan of Troyius, implying that the hippie commie worker's paradise didn't arrive till sometime between TOS and TNG.

Another factor is energy - apparently there's no shortage of energy if they can power warp drive and transporters. That implies that holosuites are unlimited in their energy supply. If you want a house on a beach, it's as close as your nearest holosuite, and the holosuite can be created with an industrial-size replicator. Everyone can have anything their little heart's desire with a snap of their fingers. How could capitalism survive a situation like that?

 

[broberfett]

We only see the elites. The party officials of 24th century communism/socialism. Remember the waiters in the Cisko restaurant. Would you do that to "better yourself"? It is cool to "better yourself" with an exciting job with you in charge, but serving tables and kissing people's asses and no tip and no pay. Fuck that. Those waiters were the poor people. Most of the people in the Federation go to bed crying with hunger while counselor Troi is eating chocolate sundaes.

 

[Hofner]

Yes. In the 24th century humans will have evolced beyond the need for material possessions such as rare vintage bottles of wine, rare archaeological artifacts that should be in a museum or vineyards in France.

Robert

 

[Turtletrekker]

In Encounter at Farpoint we see Beverly buying merchandise from a Deneb local, so the "no money in the 24th century" thing is shot down before it even started.

What Sci posted sounds about right. Despite the nationalist rhetoric you get in the US, capatlism isn't the be all and end all of societal systems, and socialism isn't the epitome of evil. Either system could work fine, or fail miserably, depending on how they are run. 24th century Earth seems to incorporate the best of both systems.

Remember that Vash was always out for a quick buck, and Janeway once commented that a Vulcan vendor doubled his price when he saw Tuvok's Starfleet uniform.

Honestly, I think the whole "no money" thing means that people don't have to carry around wallets with hard currency and credit cards or write checks. Everything is probably on a banking computer that keeps track of everyone's finances and keeps you from over-extending yourself. And as said upthread, the replicator takes care of basic needs so nobody need go hungry or without clothing or other essentials.

 

[sbk1234]

When Picard said that line to Lily in FC, he was full of shit. He was just saying it to a primitive 21st Century human to make the 24th Century humans look so much more superior. It's also a load of crap they tell non-Federation types to get out of paying for things. Come to think of it, not a bad idea. I might try it the next time I'm out with people.

The only reference in Trek that I remember that throws a wrench in this theory is in TVH, when Kirk makes the observation: "They're still using money." As well as Gillian Taylor's line: "Don't tell me, they don't use money in the 23rd Century." To which Kirk replies: "Well, we don't." It DID get Kirk out of paying.
Seriously, I always took that to mean they don't use a physical currency. Their "credits" are just that. But it's all handled through the accounts, and they never actually handle the stuff themselfves.

 

[John Picard]

I think there is more of a credit system in place. And thanks to those who corrected me about First Contact. It has been a while since I watched it.

I do remember, even though most people don't consider books to be canon, that in several TOS and TNG books (and I think a DS9 book) that certain characters talked about "saving up" for something. Riker in particular stands out, but I just can't remember specific novels.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Menacing Horta said:
The invention of the replicator killed off capitalism. When you can get anything you want from a magic box, why work to make money?

Replicators are not a magic box.

You might still work, but it won't be for money.

That sentence does not make sense, IMHO. Nobody would work if they didn't get paid. What would be the point? All that effort for nothing? Horse-hockey, as Colonel Sherman Potter would say.

Another factor is energy - apparently there's no shortage of energy if they can power warp drive and transporters. That implies that holosuites are unlimited in their energy supply.

It implies nothing of the kind. Warp drive and transporters can break down, and so can replicators. There is no such thing as an unlimited energy supply. Unless you've discovered the secret of perpetual motion, that's unavoidable.

If you want a house on a beach, it's as close as your nearest holosuite

Some will never be satisfied with anything but the real thing. I know I wouldn't. If I wanted a house on a beach, I'd want a REAL house on a REAL beach.

and the holosuite can be created with an industrial-size replicator.

Which not everyone has access to.

Everyone can have anything their little heart's desire with a snap of their fingers. How could capitalism survive a situation like that?

Replicators aren't magical. They require maintenance, energy (it's NOT infinite - energy never is) and bulk matter to operate. Quark charges for the use of his holosuites - if anyone could use their own, for free, he'd never get away with that.

And remember, not everybody has or wants a replicator. (Picard's brother, for example. He never allowed them in his home. So do you think the family went to all that trouble to make Chateau Picard - for FREE?)

 

[UnknownSample]

Note: More people posted while I was writing mine, and I've lost track of whom I was answering. sorry about any confusion.

There's no reason they would need to go Mao, or Spartan, and deny themselves some interesting possessions that make their lives better. I doubt that many Federation citizens own ancient archaeological treasures, but it's easy enough to replicate a few. You could even study those.

Wine, I don't know. I imagine everyone gets some of the good life. Wine isn't being made for money either, and there may be more of the good stuff made through different techniques. (You think wine should stay in the vineyard?!j/k)

There's no elite. There doesn't need to be an elite. It's sort of pathological to want to be in an elite, and with replicators and pride in work and art or science or whatever you do to contribute, who needs to buy or steal rare toys and stick them in a gold-lined closet or something, to feel better than everyone else? It wouldn't impress anyone anymore. You's be a slacker and a parasite, in 24C terms. People would pity you. (We all get good sound-systems, by the way.)

Someone said they might not be issued credits in Starfleet... we'd never have heard the term if they weren't. I don't see the problem with them. I'm sure credits work just like money, and can be given to other species for services or goods. We would have something we can use as money, but we couldn't make money in the old sense. On the plus side, you get a share of, or crack at, some of the stuff the rich people used to keep for themselves... the use of it, not the owning of it. I'm guessing the really nice mansions were divided up, without damaging them, and there are lotteries to determine where you get to live. The crappiest of hovels got bulldozed. Places are built to look good and enhance life, not to be cheap boxes.

No more strip malls!

I would have to be an economist to guess what happens to the value of our money (credits) to outsiders (other planets) if we don't compete for it, anymore. If that doesn't work, I'm sure they came up with some bright idea to overcome any problems.

Someone brought up "human nature" and wondered if the replicators drug everyone... not to be selfish or something, I guess. We only know what "human nature" is like under the kinds of circumstances we were born into. Alter the circumstances, and people's "nature" changes.

Starving people behave differently, as do people who get rich. You can end up changing as a person if you gain or lose respect in other people's eyes. Respect from people around you is a big motivator. If you're born into a world with different values, your values will be different too. You can rebel against them, but people are affected by a lot of factors, that's the point. What we may think is "human nature" is the way people are in this society, in these times.

PS-- I don't know where all the power comes from for the replicators. I thought it was a mistake not to show a power source. I thought of it as a question of where the matter comes from, though. On starships I assumed some matter was drawn from things they passed through in space, somehow. Janeway once said "There's coffee in that nebula."

It's not a magic box, and it was a mistake to have them be portable. They just seem to hand the things over to settlers when it seems such a powerful device that something big and powerful must power it.

Babaganoosh... isn't Baba Ghanouj a Turkish eggplant dip? I used to buy a lot of that, it was my favorite food item for awhile.... my car gave out, or I'd have some now....

 

[Deks]

Replicators aren't magical in any retrospect, but they are energy to matter conversion technology.

Planet based, such technologies do have unlimited power source, as well as do holosuits, transporters and a number of other things.

Some claim that those techs need maintenance or else they would break down.
I agree ... this is why they have technicians/engineers who do that line of work.

And the line that no one would work for nothing ...
That is a load of nonsense.
Even today, there are people who do voluntary work for example.

The Feds probably ensure everyone have access to energy, decent housing and replicators for food/clothing alone.

Since humanity in the 24th century do not think in the capacity of 'every man to himself', resources are shared and people help each other.

And Picard was not telling Lilly lies in FC about the future being money-less.
He was for one thing checking out the scene for Borg drones who could assimilate them, and you think he would tell her all that just to portray his century as the 'superior' one in such a situation ?
Very doubtful.

As for Beverly buying in a shop at 'Encounter at Farpoint' ... how many times do I have to say that is easily explainable with the statement that Feds only use currency when dealing with alien races that still use it and won't accept anything else besides that ?

'UnknownSample' made a very good point btw.
Numerous people would consider Federation society to be impossible because of our 'nature'.
Please can it because it's not universal and it varies from person to person.
Plus, humanity in Trek saw probably that money and not sharing resources restricted them in numerous plans (like space exploration and numerous scientific researches) and probably was the cause of WW3, so it's no wonder they would try to change and eliminate the things that kept them down before.

Imagine if our humanity would suddenly adopt those views and started sharing EVERYTHING (incl. money for example without the need of canning it) and working together in union.
I would think our technological and possibly social developments would radically alter for one thing and would accelerate exponentially as well.

It's no wonder humans in Trek were that much advanced.
It makes sense after all when you unify everyone to work towards similar goals and that material aspects are of no concern because worrying about them makes no sense when such needs are met by default.

 

[broberfett]

People don't share everything. What if someone decides they want the Picard vineyards because they are pretty? Can they just share it? There are only so many command positions and boss positions that have all those little benefits, like the Captains Yacht.

Remember how they treated Picard like a total tool in the episode where Q erased Picards heart injury. That is how the common lower ranking officers and NCOs get treated. I bet one of those little guys in the lower decks episode can't get one of those fancy wine bottles.

Remember how they all treated Barclay like a tool-human nature-contempt for the weak. If the contempt can be had without reprisals then it grows even worse. Human nature is shared and not unique from person to person or we wouldn't have Psychology or Psychiatry, except that each one was an individual science starting over from scratch on each person.

Explain those waiters in Daddy Ciskos restaurant. Why would anyone do that? What about people that clean up shit? Watch dirty jobs and think there are people that are doing shit like that for free to "improve themselves".