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Peace With the Dominion

nx1701g

Admiral
Admiral
So I was recently watching What You Leave Behind this evening and I watched the scenes where the Founder Leader declares surrender. My first thoughts (well aside from the fact that I am still surprised that she didn't issue orders to fire on the Allied fleet) were could the Federation and the Dominion ever enter into a peaceful relationship? Could they become allies?
 
Well, the Dominion had goals in the war. The two we know of were getting Odo back and negating the Alpha Quadrant as a threat. It seems they got their first wish, and probably got most of the second, too. So the two could well coexist peacefully for a while.

However, the Dominion also has the declared goal of subjugating the rest of the universe so that it doesn't present a threat to the Founders. Allowing the Alpha powers to remain "equal partners" does not meet that goal, and nothing we've seen so far would appear to have dissuaded the Dominion from continuing to pursue that goal. So I don't see a future for an alliance, not yet anyway. The Dominion knows it can't defeat the Alphans at Alpha, with an offensive mounted through the wormhole. But it will probably try other tricks until Alpha finally folds.

It would be nice to learn what the terms of the surrender were. We heard none in the episode itself...

Timo Saloniemi
 
I think the Dominion and the Federation will keep the peace, provided the Feds don't press the Dominion's borders too much as they resume exploring the Gamma Quadrant. The Founders and the Dominion have other business to attend to in the Gamma Quadrant, so they'll be happy to let the Federation do the dirty work of managing wormhole traffic.

There will be no alliance, though. Section 31-- legally sanctioned operatives of the Federation government-- tried to commit genocide against the Founders.
 
Well, they themselves claim to be - and to denounce them, the UFP would first have to acknowledge their existence, which may be a bit of a Catch-22. ;)

...as they resume exploring the Gamma Quadrant

But will they? We don't even know if the Prophets will allow that. And even if they do, there's no telling the Dominion would.

When the peace treaty was signed, the Dominion was still the side with the more powerful military force - by far. It would be quite unlikely for the treaty to favor the UFP; the Alpha combatants would have been treading on eggshells when drafting the conditions of the treaty, whereas the Dominion probably added an endless list of its own conditions. If the Dominion refused to withdraw from Cardassia (which may or may not have happened), then the Alpha powers could probably do something about it (but perhaps didn't). But if they refused to allow passage through the wormhole, there'd be absolutely nothing to be done. They are still the unquestionable and unchallenged masters of the Gamma end of the wormhole. (They always were, even before they knew it was there...)

Timo Saloniemi
 
^ Until those sections are altered, and the group officially disbanded. After that, when they become autonomous, they lose that sanction.

These issues are explored, especially the exploration of the GQ, in the Post Fiction novels.

But for myself, the Founders are xenophobic, territorial, and powerful. They don't want incursions of any kind from outsiders, and don't need the help (minus that disease that was external too- so that won't help matters). They'll never be complete allies.
 
Well, the Dominion had goals in the war. The two we know of were getting Odo back and negating the Alpha Quadrant as a threat. It seems they got their first wish, and probably got most of the second, too. So the two could well coexist peacefully for a while.

However, the Dominion also has the declared goal of subjugating the rest of the universe so that it doesn't present a threat to the Founders. Allowing the Alpha powers to remain "equal partners" does not meet that goal, and nothing we've seen so far would appear to have dissuaded the Dominion from continuing to pursue that goal. So I don't see a future for an alliance, not yet anyway. The Dominion knows it can't defeat the Alphans at Alpha, with an offensive mounted through the wormhole. But it will probably try other tricks until Alpha finally folds.

It would be nice to learn what the terms of the surrender were. We heard none in the episode itself...

Timo Saloniemi

I like unconditional surrender and complete disarmament. This almost necessarily would have happened for the Cardassians (they had been thoroughly disarmed anyway), would have occurred less obviously for the Breen whose territory may or may not have been invaded by the AQ Alliance, but I think it did. However, with with the Dominion, given 1)the Federation's/Bajor's/the Prophets'/the Sisko's/Alpha Quadrant's total control over access to the wormhole and 2)the fact that within a few months the Great Link was no longer going to exist, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what Salome and the rest agreed to, or would have agreed to if the Feds, Klings, and Roms decided to press it.
 
Well it's not like the Jem'Hadar could return to their civilian jobs.
Besides, completely disarming the Dominion would leave them defenseless against revolting members of their Empire seeking revenge, rogue Jem'Hadar and such. How could they ever agree to such terms?
The founders would be back where they started, surrounded by solid enemies, a hunted species.
 
^They wouldn't. And of course, the Federation isn't strong enough to enforce that anyway.

Tho I feel I must say Jem'Hadar go beyond simple soldiers- they build, engineer, pilot etc. too. So if there is no battle, there is plenty else they can do.
 
the fact that within a few months the Great Link was no longer going to exist

But the Alphans had lost that leverage over the Dominion already: Odo had agreed to cure the Link. All the Feds could do to blackmail the Dominion now would be to imprison or kill Odo, who certainly wasn't at Starfleet's beck and call.

The Dominion would seem to hold all the aces no matter how things went - only excluding the option of letting the Link die. They could always agree to a surrender and withdrawal, then receive the cure, and then strike again with overwhelming force to avenge the dastardly blackmail. Really, appeasing them by never attempting any blackmail would seem like the better way to proceed, as this might quell their genocidal urges for the time being, rather than reinforce them.

Still, if The Sisko really controlled the wormhole, Dominion revenge would be delayed by at least 70 years or so - so it might be worth the risks to force them to withdraw to Gamma initially. But in no case would there be a chance of continuing Gamma exploration and exploitation, then.

Timo Saloniemi
 
TeutonicNights nailed it in a way- I don't think the Federation has ever been comfortable with the way the Jem Hadar were created and used- in breeding facilities, programmed and forced to be soldiers.

I thought the Federation had certain ethical requirements before they allied themselves with another culture or power, though we've seen how they'll let certain things slip.

It's interesting, but in some trek articles I've read about the Jem Hadar, they are never use for any high level decision making.

They simply want to be soldiers and fight, and are programmed to think that way.

They imply that the Jem Hadar are use mainly (or only) for combat or guard duty, although they have the skills for things like engineering at least.

Odo seems to be proof that a Founder can live amongst solids in a relatively peaceful way.

However based on what we've seen of the Jem Hadar, some major engineering would have to be re-done, and I doubt the Founders would do that.
 
Well it's not like the Jem'Hadar could return to their civilian jobs.
Besides, completely disarming the Dominion would leave them defenseless against revolting members of their Empire seeking revenge, rogue Jem'Hadar and such. How could they ever agree to such terms?
The founders would be back where they started, surrounded by solid enemies, a hunted species.
They could become a Federation protectorate. Heck, they could easily move the entire Link to the Alpha Quadrant, set up a quarantine ala Talos IV, given that they moved the Founder homeworld in a remarkably short time once already...

As for the Jem'Hadar and Vorta, the same could, if less readily, be done for them, shielding them from retaliation from a truly liberated Gamma Quadrant. Additionally, they don't have sex, and it sometimes appears that they have no great drive to perpetuate their artificial species--or indeed very many qualities at all that don't relate to serving the Founders--the Jem'Hadar and Vorta refugees might be a truly temporary problem.:shifty:

Good ethical question: if the trillions of lives ruled over by the Dominion weren't freed when it was within the Federation's power to free them, is the Federation then responsible for their continued slavery?

Timo said:
But the Alphans had lost that leverage over the Dominion already: Odo had agreed to cure the Link. All the Feds could do to blackmail the Dominion now would be to imprison or kill Odo, who certainly wasn't at Starfleet's beck and call.
It seems unlikely that Sisko (pre-Space Jesus) would have imprisoned or killed Odo, but I surely wouldn't put it beyond Ross, who would have a professional and humanitarian interest in seeing the Dominion collapse. Nor Martok, who would have a personal interest in seeing the end of the Dominion (if not the end of their ruling species entirely!). Nor the Romulans, who would arguably have a political interest in destroying the Dominion. All of these decisionmakers' votes count for more than Sisko's, and a damn sight more than Odo's.

The Dominion would seem to hold all the aces no matter how things went - only excluding the option of letting the Link die. They could always agree to a surrender and withdrawal, then receive the cure, and then strike again with overwhelming force to avenge the dastardly blackmail.
Not if the Dominion's military is dismantled, which is a process that would have to be overseen by AQ observers capable of destroying Odo, Salome, and the cure in the event that things go awry. This shouldn't take too awfully long, weeks at most, at least if we're going the fast way, and self-destructing the ships.

Really, appeasing them by never attempting any blackmail would seem like the better way to proceed, as this might quell their genocidal urges for the time being, rather than reinforce them.
Appeasing them only permits them to reconsolidate their control over their stretch of GQ and rearm. If we learned anything from Versailles, peace must either be amicable or neutralizing. Versailles was neither, and an amicable peace with the Founders seems... perhaps unlikely. While I'm sure the fact that humanoids found a cure for their ailment will weigh in our favor during the congress of the renewed Great Link, I doubt they'll forget that humanoids were the ones who tried to destroy their entire species (before the war had even begun!) in the first place.

Still, if The Sisko really controlled the wormhole, Dominion revenge would be delayed by at least 70 years or so - so it might be worth the risks to force them to withdraw to Gamma initially. But in no case would there be a chance of continuing Gamma exploration and exploitation, then.
This is true. The Prophets might just decide that the Federation and Dominion should be permanently separated from each other, at least to the best of their abilities. Even so, it's important to remember that the Prophets' power over temporal affairs more or less ends at the mouth of the wormhole. If the Feds/Klings/Roms were adamant that they would not release Odo and Salome without permission to take a fleet through to oversee the disarmament and to keep the peace (and you take the fleet through first, in the unlikely case that the Prophets are lying should they agree, and disappear your starships as they are wont to do!), The Sisko would be put in the position of convincing his Space Mom and Space Aunts and Uncles to permit the adversarial and linear AQ Alliance peacekeepers. The Prophets probably don't really care either way, but might be swayed by the notion that Bajor would be safer with the Dominion gone. The Founders would be retarded to try to stop the dissolution of their empire, since their existence literally depends on it. The Jem'Hadar and Vorta on the GQ side, for their part, would be extremely disloyal to their gods to do anything but destroy their fleet and march themselves onto the ark ships for resettlement.

At the end of the day, however, while I admit that it's a somewhat ethically suspect position, leveraging the possible destruction of the entire Great Link for the freedom of trillions seems morally correct, to me. Besides, even in the event of refusal, the species survives, in Odo and Salome, and again it's debateable whether the Great Link counts as more than a single entity, and even if it isn't, whether it is not collectively responsible anyway.
 
Good ethical question: if the trillions of lives ruled over by the Dominion weren't freed when it was within the Federation's power to free them, is the Federation then responsible for their continued slavery?

Good question. But obviously, the Klingons still did opress peoples decades after Khitomer, too (Krios). And what about the Romulans? They Feds even signed the Treaty of Algeron, giving them a free pass to invade Federation territory undetected, while they themselves couldn't have cloak.
What about the Cardies? They didn't seem demilitarized nor democratic after their war with the Federation.

What about potential billions of people that will be killed by rogue Jem'Hadar hating their new gardener jobs? Or in civil wars once the Dominion collapses? Would the Federation not also be responsible for that?
We've seen rogue Jem'Hadar even back when the Dominion was still going strong. What do you think they'll do once Starfleet begins dismantling the fleet and tells them to become cooks and janitors?

Of course, who knows how such things might work in the Trek future? The Federation analysts might have come to the conclusion that the Dominion is such a fundamental threat that only its destruction would do.
But if the Federation was that way, they would have tried to collapse the Wormhole during season 3, four at the latest. They would certainly not wait to even think of a minefield until it was almost too late.
The Romulans and Cardassians think that way ("Visionary", Garak two-parter), but the Feds? Dunno.

Besides, just look at the peace traty scene. I think the writers wanted to give us the impression that the Dominion will continue to exist.
 
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