Parasitic Starships

[westwords2020]

In the real world, parasitic vehicles are used in navy applications. You have manned helos for ships and unmanned and autonomous Unmanned Surface Vessels, Unmanned Underwater Vessels and Unmanned Air Vehicles.
Present abilities are mine warfare with surface and antisubmarine warfare coming soon.
Why not have parasitic starships launched from hangars or as is the case with projected submarines, recessed into the hull or mounted conformally?
Instead of tiny fighters, think Runabout size but with high warp for short distances ala the scout ship attacking Enterprise in Journey to Babel but instead of suicide mission you have a mobile base to resupply from.

 

[Timo]

Usually, the point of having a parasite is that its other abilities can be enhanced by omitting the propulsion system and leaving the mothership to do the A-to-B'ing.

In the Trek context, there would be two degrees to this: a sublight/static parasite, and a low-warp one. It's difficult to see what could be achieved by the second type of parasite that couldn't better be achieved by omitting warp drive altogether, except for the sort of courier duties that the small shuttlecraft now handle.

As for sublight or static parasites, those could have diverse roles. The E-D sort of had two: the Captain's Yacht (which was big enough to become a surface embassy if needed), and the saucer section. The idea of using the saucer for evacuation never made much sense, considering how immobile it was. But leaving it behind to conduct research from orbit might be a good way to operate an explorer at shortish ranges; the stardrive section could go fetch another saucer and deliver it to another location to be researched, then get a third one, or a cargo compartment for resupply of the saucers, etc. This assuming that warp drives were expensive and in short supply, and that they should not be idled along with the saucers when research (or colonization, terraforming, planetary bombardment, whatnot) was being conducted.

However, it seems that warp is quite cheap, at least in the 24th century. Why build a parasite when one can build a more or less independent warp-capable unit like the E-E Yacht or the Danube class? The warp drives of those craft do not seem to impose much penalty on their payload or affordability.

It seems that the long duration mission where a parasitic saucer could serve is quite cost-effectively handled by an entire Oberth starship, complete with an idled warp drive...

Perhaps parasites would make sense for extreme deep space missions where a single very powerful propulsive stage would deliver a swarm of units to explore a region of space far, far away from any other Starfleet assets. But we haven't seen a mission like that so far - probably mainly because we followed the E-D which never explored much, the DS9 station which stayed put, and the Voyager which had no interest in spending time on surveys or leaving behind any assets.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I'm a bit confused by your use of the term "parasitic" in this context. You make reference to helicopters, UAVs (that's unmanned autonomous vehicle...) and ROVs (that's remotely operated vehicle). (You used some different terms, but those are the "umbrella" terms that all of those unmanned systems fall under.) The difference between an ROV and a UAV is that the UAV doesn't require an operator... you give it a mission and it goes and does it on its own (or at least it CAN operate without direct interaction... though sometimes they'll have real-time interaction anyway). The ROV is basically useless if it's cut off from the operator.

ANYWAY... Starfleet has that sort of thing. There are probes, and there are drones, and all variety of things of that nature.

We have UAVs (the robot cargo drones from TAS, for instance, but in essence every probe or torpedo could fall into this category).

As for helicopters... well, they fall under the umbrella term of "embarked craft" which is VERY well established in the Trek world... shuttlecraft, fightercraft, "captain's yachts," etc.

So, my confusion is that I'm just not quite following what you think it is that's "new" about what you're suggesting?

Am I missing your point entirely?

First thing... please define how you're using the term "parasite" and how this differs from what's already well-established in Trekdom.

Just not following you... at all.

 

[Wingsley]

The notion of parasitic space vehicles that could call a Federation starship "the mothership" is one that STAR TREK never adequately explored. It's a shame, because things like this could've opened up numerous story opportunities, both involving exploration/first contact and military confrontation & rescue.

TREK never did the notion justice of using the starship as a mobile "home base", and doing spin-off eps or story arcs involving shuttlecraft, runabouts, base camps on planets, or temporary space stations where the characters could go on extended missions in deep space away from "the mothership". We saw great character stories in "The Galileo Seven" and "Metamorphosis", and TOS came painfully close with the half-baked "That Which Survives", but they never really got it.

Drones, runabouts and other similar craft would be a wonderful means of expanding story possibilities in the TREK universe, even in ENT. If they only had the imagination...

 

[westwords2020]

One parasitic concept under study by USN is the Manta UUV/AUV. I use terms from Navy here. Anyways four Manta would be mounted around the fore section of a future submarine. Each weighs 25-90 tons and has four torpedo tubes carrying four full length torpedoes or eight half length variants or four smaller UUVs or Tomahawk cruise missiles. The mothership provides refuelling/battery recharge and these vehicles provide remote sensing of the battlespace and remote weapons platforms due to progress in underwater acoustic datalinks. Operation is largely autonomous with operator probably needed for weapons release.
USVs are new and one example is the Remote Minehunting System to be fitted on six destroyers. Semisubmerged, it has substantial range and maps minefields or can tow ASW sonar for locating submarines.
Spartan USV is a robotic boat that can accept guns, missiles or torpedoes and scout ahead over the horizon.
UAVs provide surveillance and can be armed. UCUVs are combatant UUVs like Manta.
Naval helos can provide targeting, surveillance and can be armed with torpedoes for ASW and missiles to attack surface craft.
Could these real world developements appear in ST?

 

[Wingsley]

I don't know why TOS' makers didn't explore this kind of thing more thoroughly.

I would imagine that if TOS-era starships and starbases and smaller space stations used probots, runabouts, and other parasitic craft/devices, they would start from a multi-purpose, non-military or pseudo-military approach and allow for military uses. We heard of probots in TOS, but all we ever saw were Nomad (and Earth-alien fusion) and Flint's M4.

I guess the show's makers deemed these kinds of things to be expensive, and budget limitations scared them off. What a shame.

 

[westwords2020]

Things get even more interesting when checking out variants of the V-22 tiltrotor Osprey which can operate as either a helicopter or fixed wing airplane with airplane speed/range and a larger payload than many helos. Although we cannot hangar an Osprey, destroyers and cruisers can act as a landing/refueling/rearming platform for V-22 albeit singly.
One Osprey variant carries articulating pylons that swing out and down to reveal store stations rated at 3500lbs on each side or total load of 7000lbs which can be land attack SLAM-ER/Harpoon antiship missiles, fuel tanks, ASW torpedoes, electronic eavesdropping pods. Another variant can collect electronic intel. A tanker variant is possible. A method has been found to externally stow and deploy a radome that allows V-22 to act as a miniAWACs like the carrier based Hawkeye. And Osprey are refuelable in flight and stow in a folded package measuring about 63 by 19 by 19 feet. Deploying to IRAQ is the basic USMC troop/cargo transport. USAF is buying a variant for special operations forces and USN for logistics and rescue.
If all that is possible via a technology leap over helos consider what future Trek or past Trek can imagine similar roles for internally hangared and conformally stowed externally manned and unmanned starcraft. It would really impact ship ops with remote sensing,exploration, torpedo carrier,intelligence/surveillance/recon, refuelling, warp fighter, transport. One design, ala Osprey, could have swapout moduals like the USN LCS or the external pylons to become whatever starcraft was needed for the mission.

 

[Wingsley]

There is one drawback in TOS: as I understand it, from "The Omega Glory", the Exeter had a full compliment of four shuttlecraft. If that's typical for a TOS-era Federation starship (give or take), then the only way to incorporate other craft would be to reduce the number of shuttlecraft. I guess there's only so much room aboard starships, and shuttle space is at a premium.

 

[Unicron]

To be honest, I kind of like the larger complements I've seen in other sources. Four shuttles doesn't seem that much to me, especially given that each can only carry six people. If the ship was being destroyed and the transporters don't work, you'd be pretty much screwed.

 

[Wingsley]

I agree. But what is the definitive source?

A Constitution-class starcruiser is supposedly 947 feet (288.65 meters) long.

Does anyone know how many shuttles can fit into the stern of that secondary hull? What kind of deck plans, other than Franz Joseph's, have ever been done to shed light on this issue? One thing I don't like about FJ's plans is that I don't recall any interior deck space allocated for starship fuel (matter/antimatter) tanks.

Of course, even if you could cram 11 people into a Class F shuttlecraft, you'd need 40 of them to evacuate a Constitution-class vessel anyway, so I guess you really are screwed. (Unless starships of that era could deploy lifepods built into the hull, like those in TNG)

 

[Unicron]

I could take a look at Jackill's cross sections, though I'm not sure how much light that might shed. His ships tend to carry considerably more small craft than in most other sources, and also have life boats. The turbolifts are designed to act as emergency life boats in the event of a disaster.

 

[Meredith]

I am always confused why when the ship's main power goes out, why they never seem to wire in shuttles to provide some sorta emergency power.

 

[Unicron]

I suppose it depends on what sort of backups are available. Tapping power from the shuttles is a good idea, but only if you have a way to get that power to the systems you need. Good question.

 

[westwords2020]

For the reason that the writer's didn't think of it and in the case of multimission parasitic starcraft the writer's imagination also failed.
To be fair, TOS era was when naval manned helos ops from ships other than carriers for ASW/antishipping strike were just being invented.
TMP could have benefited from that ten years later but either suffered imagination failure or had some reasons not to do that.
TNG didn't have the budget I think and neither did the movies and in an effort to avoid SW comparisons may have made a deliberate decision not to have multimission shuttles/auxillary starcraft and restricted such vehicles to transport and scientific recon.
Now we have tiltrotor and larger helos, more effective intelligence, surviellance and recon as well as attack are possible in real world and I think ST would be well served by scout and torpedo craft or Fast Runabouts with mission modules defining their roles in a given episode or film.
Perhaps Rick Sternbach would care to comment on this.

 

[Wingsley]

It isn't just the notion of the studio going to the trouble of constructing new miniatures and sets/mockups for parasitic spacecraft, probots, etc. There's another take on this: take a look at my pet peeve, "That Which Survives".

Here's a story were four officers beam down to a planet with minimal clothing (just ordinary duty "fatigues"), one sidearm apiece, one (presumably short-range) communicator apiece, and a three tricorders:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=92&pos=12

No food, no water, no rations or survival gear of any kind, no tent, no sleeping bags, not even a jacket like the kind used in "The Cage":

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=20&pos=85

As one fan posted on another forum of this web-site: not even a freaking knife!

There are six transporter pads and only four of them. Even if the Enterprise could not spare personnel, one would think regulations would forbid officers to beam down to an unfamiliar planet with such a minimal equipment manifest. If this planet is as mysterious as Spock's scans/probes suggest, even if no long-term expedition is required, and this beam-down is only a preliminary visit, one would logically expect it to be taken a little more seriously. Regardless of which officers or how many are in the landing party, why would ANYONE beam down without a plan in place in case the Enterprise's attention is suddenly diverted? It is, after all, a mysterious planet. After what happened on Cestus III ("Arena") and Minara II ("The Empath"), it would seem a little more effort, like maybe a fifth transporter pad delivering some kind of "mission pack" with a medi-kit, transmitter, and other basics would be common sense. It doesn't have to be an expensive or elaborate prop, or even fancy. It could look like this:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=38&pos=5

...or any of these...

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=38&pos=9

Just something simple. It wouldn't even have to be opened as part of the ep.

This may not seem to specifically be in line with the kind of spacecraft or technology that's being suggested in this thread, but it does open up a new dimension to the same basic logic applied here. Starfleet is not a strictly military organization, but their mission and their operations do have military characteristics. Even without the "Star Fleet Battles" genre of gaming and fanon, I would hope this new generation of TREK fiction and fan-films will begin to show a more credible picture of Federation starships as explorers.

One can hope, anyway...

 

[Meredith]

Wingsley said:
It isn't just the notion of the studio going to the trouble of constructing new miniatures and sets/mockups for parasitic spacecraft, probots, etc. There's another take on this: take a look at my pet peeve, "That Which Survives".

Here's a story were four officers beam down to a planet with minimal clothing (just ordinary duty "fatigues"), one sidearm apiece, one (presumably short-range) communicator apiece, and a three tricorders:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=92&pos=12

No food, no water, no rations or survival gear of any kind, no tent, no sleeping bags, not even a jacket like the kind used in "The Cage":

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=20&pos=85

As one fan posted on another forum of this web-site: not even a freaking knife!

There are six transporter pads and only four of them. Even if the Enterprise could not spare personnel, one would think regulations would forbid officers to beam down to an unfamiliar planet with such a minimal equipment manifest. If this planet is as mysterious as Spock's scans/probes suggest, even if no long-term expedition is required, and this beam-down is only a preliminary visit, one would logically expect it to be taken a little more seriously. Regardless of which officers or how many are in the landing party, why would ANYONE beam down without a plan in place in case the Enterprise's attention is suddenly diverted? It is, after all, a mysterious planet. After what happened on Cestus III ("Arena") and Minara II ("The Empath"), it would seem a little more effort, like maybe a fifth transporter pad delivering some kind of "mission pack" with a medi-kit, transmitter, and other basics would be common sense. It doesn't have to be an expensive or elaborate prop, or even fancy. It could look like this:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=38&pos=5

...or any of these...

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=38&pos=9

Just something simple. It wouldn't even have to be opened as part of the ep.

This may not seem to specifically be in line with the kind of spacecraft or technology that's being suggested in this thread, but it does open up a new dimension to the same basic logic applied here. Starfleet is not a strictly military organization, but their mission and their operations do have military characteristics. Even without the "Star Fleet Battles" genre of gaming and fanon, I would hope this new generation of TREK fiction and fan-films will begin to show a more credible picture of Federation starships as explorers.

One can hope, anyway...

If they beamed down with reasonable equipment i might as well watch Stargate especially now since they too can beam and they carry mission pack with them.

 

[Wingsley]

I don't think I'm suggesting that STAR TREK should imitate STARGATE.

(Actually, with the introduction of Earth starships on the later, my thought was the show is beginning to imitate TREK!)

TREK would not have to go all-military every time the characters want to step into the transporter. It just seems a little too cheap and poorly thought out by the franchise's makers that they would disembark with nothing.

 

[westwords2020]

Why not beam down with a vehicle/rover using the cargo transporter.
For that matter, use a shuttle in hovercraft mode to get around in.
Yes, away team members need a proper kit.

 

[Wingsley]

One thing I agree with on how "That Which Survives" was handled:

The Enterprise beamed down a small landing party to do a preliminary analysis. It wasn't meant to be a big or long-term operation. Just use the transporter to beam down and take a look and see if the situation warrants a more serious committment of personnel and equipment. Kirk wasn't going to waste time flying a shuttle to the planet surface when he could just beam down and take a look to decide whether a more serious invesitgation was in order. If Kirk decided it was worth leaving a survey team on the surface, then he would commit them. That part I can see.

(Of course, it occured to me that D'Amato could've been a scientist who would pass his recommendation to Kirk, Kirk would either pass it to Starfleet or veto it, and then the Enteprise would leave orbit for their next assignment. Whenever the Enterprise may have a chance to stop at a Starbase or space station, they might transfer D'Amato off. D'Amato would expect to be picked up by a science vessel that would take a long-term expedition back to Losira's planet. The science vessel would have the heavy equipment, etc. At least, that's the protocol Kirk may have expected upon beaming down.)

What I can't see is a small landing party beaming down with nothing, not even a jacket or a knife. Even if it is just a "look-see" mission, I don't see why a mission pack could not have been beamed down with the group.

 

[Chris_Johnston]

I believe seaQuest DSV used parasitic sensor probes called "WSKRs", and Andromeda had ROVs called "slipfighters" for point defense.