PAL dvd issues (season 1)

[V=voyagerhelp]

Hey all! I'm transferring my PAL DVD's of Star Trek Voyager to MKV files for PLEX. For the first season of the show, all the episodes have an annoying color moire/flickering that happens randomly in highlights. It's horrible, rainbow lines of color that flicker and draws your attention. I've attached an image below to show this (but it's hard to show the exact issue with just a still image). In the cave shot in episode “state of flux” (S01E10), you can see the unwanted colors in all the highlights of the caves.

Does anyone have the 2017 PAL or NTSC releases? If so, can you speak to if this annoying rainbow glitch also happens for you in season 1?

 

[V=voyagerhelp]

Whoop, forgot to attach the image

 

[tomswift2002]

That looks like composite video noise. You have to remember that all 7 seasons of Voyager were mastered to NTSC D2 Composite Digital Videotape.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-2_(video)

Now then, while DVD is component video based, when a video comes from a composite source (I.e. analog cable, Laserdisc) it still has the composite video artifacts. And all DVD’s worldwide (and the streaming files on Netflix and all other streaming sites also come from the DVD MPEG-2 files), including reissues are using the 2004 masters. These masters would’ve had the composite video run through 3-D Comb filters in 2004, however, comb filters have come a long way since 2004, and comb filters in 2020/2021 do a better job—-they’ll never seperate composite perfectly—-than 2004 comb filters. CBS, even if they are not planning to remaster the series at this point, they need to create new digital masters that are run through modern 3-D comb filters and de-interlacers (like a Terranex) in order to get better quality video for modern streaming devices.

Also in your case, you are using video from PAL DVD’s. I don’t have any PAL DVD’s, but I’m wondering, are the files true PAL files, or are you seeing the NTSC files and the DVD was programmed so that your players performed the NTSC to PAL conversion themselves.

 

[Orac]

I've seen the same effect occurring in the Deep Space 9 and Voyager episodes on Netflix.

 

[tomswift2002]

I've seen the same effect occurring in the Deep Space 9 and Voyager episodes on Netflix.

As I said it’s composite artifacting. It’s because from 1990 to 2001 all seasons of Trek, from TNG’s Season 4 to Voyager’s Season 7 were mastered to D2 NTSC Composite Digital Videotape, and all copies, including the PAL masters are sourced from the NTSC D2 tapes.

 

[Tomalak]

Also in your case, you are using video from PAL DVD’s. I don’t have any PAL DVD’s, but I’m wondering, are the files true PAL files, or are you seeing the NTSC files and the DVD was programmed so that your players performed the NTSC to PAL conversion themselves.

As I understand it they are PAL files converted from the NTSC masters by Paramount Home Entertainment UK back in the day. They certainly went through a lot of conversation to get there, from the original 35mm negatives to the MPEG-2 files on the disc, so it's not surprising they accumulated some artefacting along the way. When they were originally broadcast on UK TV we got 1" NTSC tapes which were converted to PAL, so they were a further generation away from the D2 masters.

Worth noting the PAL DVDs are slightly edited from the R1 originals - I'm not sure about Voyager, but there are a couple of cuts in DS9, ISTR a neck break in To The Death and the blood ritual at the end of Sons and Daughters.

Netflix is the best way to view Voyager and DS9 in the UK as they are uncut and from the US masters, so they are not afflicted by the PAL speedup which brings the higher pitched soundtrack.

 

[tomswift2002]

As I understand it they are PAL files converted from the NTSC masters by Paramount Home Entertainment UK back in the day. They certainly went through a lot of conversation to get there, from the original 35mm negatives to the MPEG-2 files on the disc, so it's not surprising they accumulated some artefacting along the way. When they were originally broadcast on UK TV we got 1" NTSC tapes which were converted to PAL, so they were a further generation away from the D2 masters.

Worth noting the PAL DVDs are slightly edited from the R1 originals - I'm not sure about Voyager, but there are a couple of cuts in DS9, ISTR a neck break in To The Death and the blood ritual at the end of Sons and Daughters.

Netflix is the best way to view Voyager and DS9 in the UK as they are uncut and from the US masters, so they are not afflicted by the PAL speedup which brings the higher pitched soundtrack.

Are you able to put a DVD in your computer and see what the VOB file says in the details? If the files are true PAL files, then the VOB’s would read 720x576. If they are NTSC, they would read 720x480.

 

[Tomalak]

Are you able to put a DVD in your computer and see what the VOB file says in the details? If the files are true PAL files, then the VOB’s would read 720x576. If they are NTSC, they would read 720x480.

Yep, they're 720x576 at 25fps.

 

[tomswift2002]

Yep, they're 720x576 at 25fps.

Ok, so PAL is really screwed up! Not only will it be softer because the resolution is increased from NTSC’s horizontal 480, but considering that the the live action and model work that was shot in 24fps, then converted to 30fps (with 3:2 pulldown), and then they probably didn’t reverse that 3:2 pulldown when they went to PAL, not mention but the SFX shots that combined 24 & 30fps footage. I wonder if the PAL DVD’s were mastered from new PAL converted files in 2003, or from the original PAL masters from the 90’s.

This is another reason CBS needs to remaster DS9.

 

[Tomalak]

That's what I'm saying, streaming DS9 and Voyager on Netflix is currently the best way to see and hear them in Europe.

 

[tomswift2002]

That's what I'm saying, streaming DS9 and Voyager on Netflix is currently the best way to see and hear them in Europe.

Rather the best way would be to import the NTSC DVD’s and play them on a Region Free DVD player.

 

[StalwartUK]

As I understand it they are PAL files converted from the NTSC masters by Paramount Home Entertainment UK back in the day. They certainly went through a lot of conversation to get there, from the original 35mm negatives to the MPEG-2 files on the disc, so it's not surprising they accumulated some artefacting along the way. When they were originally broadcast on UK TV we got 1" NTSC tapes which were converted to PAL, so they were a further generation away from the D2 masters.

Worth noting the PAL DVDs are slightly edited from the R1 originals - I'm not sure about Voyager, but there are a couple of cuts in DS9, ISTR a neck break in To The Death and the blood ritual at the end of Sons and Daughters.

Netflix is the best way to view Voyager and DS9 in the UK as they are uncut and from the US masters, so they are not afflicted by the PAL speedup which brings the higher pitched soundtrack.

The DS9 cuts date back to when they released the show on VHS. Paramount being cheap just used the same cuts for DVD (saving them paying out BBFC certification fees). Of course this ended up affecting all the Region 2/4 releases meaning places like Germany that got the episodes uncut on VHS got cut versions on DVD.

I assume this doesn't affect the versions on Amazon or Netflix like it never affected TV but I've never checked.

None of the other series including Voyager have any censorship issues when it comes to DVD/Blu-ray.

Conversely the Region 2 versions come with additional extras that were not included with the standard Region 1 releases, I think they were instead put on bonus discs that were exclusive to Best Buy.

 

[Tomalak]

Yep, that's right, those Best Buy discs have still never been re-released in Region 1, so that is an advantage the Region 2 sets have.

I seem to recall we also got a CD-ROM with some kind of interactive database and a screensaver (remember them?), but I could never get it to work back in 2003.

 

[StalwartUK]

Yep, that's right, those Best Buy discs have still never been re-released in Region 1, so that is an advantage the Region 2 sets have.

Those best buy discs certainly go for a fair bit on eBay and the like. Probably just too much hassle in their eyes to re-press/include an extra disc in the newer sets.

There was also a special set released for TNG's 20th anniversary in 2007 that came with additional bonus material that far as I'm aware never showed up anywhere else, not even the blu-rays.

I seem to recall we also got a CD-ROM with some kind of interactive database and a screensaver (remember them?), but I could never get it to work back in 2003.

I think each season came with such a disc in a black slipcase that added up together kinda like a partwork. Kinda rare too since only the original 2003 releases included them.

Other oddity is that the Voyager season 1 R2 release came with two TOS episodes for some reason. Probably to drum up interest/sales in the TOS DVDs that came out around the same time, also possibly to pad out the set which otherwise would only have had five discs bearing in mind that back then the RRP for these sets was like £85.00 a season.