Seeing as most of the galaxy is no longer ruled by an oppressive dictatorship, I thought TFA was pretty happy. Sure poop still happens, evil exists, it corrupts, good people have to rise up to stop it, but otherwise it wasn't all doom and gloom.
Pain... Terrible pain! (TFA spoilers)
- Thread starter Gaith
- Start date
Aside from the fact that happy endings aren't particularly realistic, as others have said, who is to say the characters weren't happy in their new role. Not everybody desires to be with the woman (or man) of their dreams and have 2.5 perfect children.
Once you figure out a way of objectively measuring what courses of action lead to the most amount of happiness, please let me know!
Not me. Adversity is the spice of life, and characters who don't face any sort of drama are pretty boring characters. Besides, Obi Wan and Yoda didn't exactly have a happy ending after the prequels, so the fates of the original three seems pretty consistent.Even apart from my indifference to TFA as a flick, I'm not sure I can forgive this, and enjoy the next Episodes. If the necessary price to pay for competently made RotJ sequels was the ruination of our Big Three's lives, for myself at least, I suspect that price was too high.
Anyone else?
I tend to look at it this way: The realities of making big-budget movies is such that a Star Wars film that centers on three age 60-ish people for two hours was never going to be made. So if you want a passing-the-torch thing -- which a lot of people seemed to want -- I would much prefer what was in the movie to something like having contented old timers giving sage advice and wishing good luck from comfy chairs in their retirement drawing rooms. I would maybe have preferred more for Leia in the story we got, but it was OK.
As for a re-branded Empire still wreaking holy terror on the galaxy, I was OK with that, too. It made the ROTJ ending seem not so facile. Instead of one guy's death suddenly making the apparatus of his state evaporate everywhere, it seemed more realistic to think that some factions had held out somewhere and maybe the war had continued a lot longer at some level (I have no idea of any non-movie backstory on that point).
As for a re-branded Empire still wreaking holy terror on the galaxy, I was OK with that, too. It made the ROTJ ending seem not so facile. Instead of one guy's death suddenly making the apparatus of his state evaporate everywhere, it seemed more realistic to think that some factions had held out somewhere and maybe the war had continued a lot longer at some level (I have no idea of any non-movie backstory on that point).
After the annihilation of billions of innocent, peaceful civilians, though, right?
And yeah, I actually like, and prefer, the fact that our "heroes" demonstrate that "Happily Ever After" is merely a euphemism and that life isn't obligated to provide it. The really cool thing about Star Wars is that you can, actually, stop watching it after ROTJ and choose to believe in the Happily Ever After, if that is preferable. I can (kinda sorta) see the storyline as being a bridge (without railings) too far for some, however (on the balance, excepting some lack of detail in the portrayal), I'm pretty happy with it.
I certainly don't see how humanizing and making our "heroes" more complex and flawed is somehow less "inspired" than the running-from-a-T-Rex-in-heels Jurassic World, though. I nearly stopped reading the thread after that assertion.
However, given the arc of, say, The Children of Húrin, that wouldn't be an unexpected development from Tolkien.
Again, Han and Leia fell in love, Luke got to start his Jedi Academy, the Empire was reduced to a rump state constricted by treaty, people obviously had enough time to make the babies - I say things worked out well after ROTJ. If they worked out any better, there wouldn't be a need for more movies. 
I'm pretty sure there were a few good years in between RotJ and TFA. There is 30 years between the movies, and I got the impression that Ben's fall, and the rise of The First Order were closer to TFA than to RotJ. I can't remember if any of the books gave exact years when certain events happened, but I would say they probably had at least 20-15 years before thing starting going bad again. I believe the First Order is still supposed to be fairly small, and off in a more isolated part of the galaxy, and if it were older than that, it would probably be a lot bigger and The Republic would take them a lot more seriously before the whole Starkiller thing. Ben Solo also would probably have to be fairly old to really stand a chance to be able to take out all of Luke's Jedi. I know it's not necessarily meant to be taken literally, but Ben also did appear to be fully grown in Rey's vision, which was a flashback to his attack on Luke and the Jedi.
You mean like this sentence, from that very same post?
Funny, I seem to remember a movie called Star Wars ending with hugs, smiles, and an awards ceremony, even though an entire planet of people had been murdered just a day or two before...
Which is my exact response to those praising the new Skywalker tragedy as "realistic", and therefore inherently good. Star Wars has never been much concerned with realism on an emotional level, so I don't see that as a compelling reason to have Han and Leia's son become, again, a school shooter, one of the most painful and miserable kinds of evil there is.
Showing an open, operational, and years-long stable Jurassic resort was all by itself more original than everything in TFA. Deal with it.I certainly don't see how humanizing and making our "heroes" more complex and flawed is somehow less "inspired" than the running-from-a-T-Rex-in-heels Jurassic World, though. I nearly stopped reading the thread after that assertion.
Well, again, I couldn't help but feeling while watching the movie that this story only existed to print more money, not because anyone had a compelling, original story to tell, because I didn't see a shred of originality anywhere. And I'm not saying that I would have objected on principle to any new story that showed darkness creeping back into the universe, either. I love Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy in large part because it takes its time building up a threat - the Empire is largely contained, and it's only the quadrutrifecta of Thrawn's tactical brilliance, his discovery of C'Boath, his tracking down the Katana Fleet and his clone production that eventually becomes a major threat. Obviously, it was too late to adopt the Thrawn trilogy in any straightforward manner, but the franchise showrunners could very well have taken inspiration from the pace of that series. Instead, we got a frantically paced hard reset, which makes the Empire a major threat again over the course of a subplot.I say things worked out well after ROTJ. If they worked out any better, there wouldn't be a need for more movies.
... Which I don't even necessarily loathe in of itself, either. It's really the specific, and entirely avoidable tragedy, of Han and Leia's only kid going bad and murdering his peers that alienated me. It just struck me as the most gratuitous and laziest path to yanking us back to ANH's galactic status quo, the OT heroes be damned.
And I guess I'm a bit surprised that so many seem fairly chill about that plot point in a time when so many people are still fuming over Clark killing Zod in Man of Steel. (Which I wasn't thrilled with either, from a narrative perspective, but in its own lame context didn't strike me as totally outrageous, and far from the biggest problem with that movie.)
By this point in time, in the old EU, Han's youngest son had died to save the Jedi. Chewbacca had died saving that boy and thus drove Han deeper into Depression. Han's oldest Son was in the process of falling to the Dark Side and would later murder family to become a Sith. His daughter was a great pilot but would have to be to one to end her brother's life.
It was no better in the other version than now, save the buildup now potentially took 15 - 30 years to get the Knights of Ren and First Order going, while the Empire was a constant for 19 year followed by new stuff that made the situation worse. The only differences was that we got to read along for years as this happened, rather than a semi-cold start 30 years after Endor.
What do we know? We know that just over a year after Endor, the Imperial Navy lost another major battle against the New Republic at Jakku. Following this defeat the Empire sued for peace, as its military was worn out and countless systems were revolting. The remains of the Empire probably still exists, the First Order being the hardliners that fled into the Unknown Regions as the treaty took effect. Ben was likely born a year or less after Endor. (or nine months after Endor perhaps).
We know Luke did setup a new Jedi Academy and that Ben Solo was part of it. At some point Ben fell in with Snoke and joined the Dark Side to be like his "awesome" grandfather. We guess this was 10 to 15 years prior to the events of the new film. So for 15 to 20 years, the Solo and Skywalkers likely had it good.
The Republic did not consider the First Order to be a threat until Starkiller Based opened fire on them. Leia and her Resistance were the Old Guard Hawks who were weary of the First Order and attempting to keep them in check with donated funds and donated slightly older model X-wings. We don't know the state of the Empire and Republic relations, but the Republic, until Starkiller Base fired, had the largest standing fleet in the Galaxy.
We don't know much about Rey.
It was no better in the other version than now, save the buildup now potentially took 15 - 30 years to get the Knights of Ren and First Order going, while the Empire was a constant for 19 year followed by new stuff that made the situation worse. The only differences was that we got to read along for years as this happened, rather than a semi-cold start 30 years after Endor.
What do we know? We know that just over a year after Endor, the Imperial Navy lost another major battle against the New Republic at Jakku. Following this defeat the Empire sued for peace, as its military was worn out and countless systems were revolting. The remains of the Empire probably still exists, the First Order being the hardliners that fled into the Unknown Regions as the treaty took effect. Ben was likely born a year or less after Endor. (or nine months after Endor perhaps).
We know Luke did setup a new Jedi Academy and that Ben Solo was part of it. At some point Ben fell in with Snoke and joined the Dark Side to be like his "awesome" grandfather. We guess this was 10 to 15 years prior to the events of the new film. So for 15 to 20 years, the Solo and Skywalkers likely had it good.
The Republic did not consider the First Order to be a threat until Starkiller Based opened fire on them. Leia and her Resistance were the Old Guard Hawks who were weary of the First Order and attempting to keep them in check with donated funds and donated slightly older model X-wings. We don't know the state of the Empire and Republic relations, but the Republic, until Starkiller Base fired, had the largest standing fleet in the Galaxy.
We don't know much about Rey.
I was jumping and smiling and dancing out of joy just yesterday, that doesn't mean I've been happy the last past years. Quite the contrary.
Luke saw his family get killed, and as much as he wished to get away, he didn't want to see them die. He saw the very planet he was about to visit turned into dust with all the people in it, which probably leaves a mark on a person. He got all his new friends kidnapped or enslaved. He learned who his father is, and by the time he got to his soul, his father got himself killed to protect him.
Oh, when this was all over, of course he will be celebrating. But the ending didn't foreshadow any path of happiness for him – anything could happen.
Luke saw his family get killed, and as much as he wished to get away, he didn't want to see them die. He saw the very planet he was about to visit turned into dust with all the people in it, which probably leaves a mark on a person. He got all his new friends kidnapped or enslaved. He learned who his father is, and by the time he got to his soul, his father got himself killed to protect him.
Oh, when this was all over, of course he will be celebrating. But the ending didn't foreshadow any path of happiness for him – anything could happen.
Since the main SW series is meant to be the Skywalker family's story, they really need something to make the conflict personal for them, having one of the bad guys be a fallen Skywalker Jedi gives them exactly that.
So, I have a question. What would you have preferred? Thrawn trilogy? Even in the EU, the heroes don't have a happy ending.You mean like this sentence, from that very same post?
Funny, I seem to remember a movie called Star Wars ending with hugs, smiles, and an awards ceremony, even though an entire planet of people had been murdered just a day or two before...
Which is my exact response to those praising the new Skywalker tragedy as "realistic", and therefore inherently good. Star Wars has never been much concerned with realism on an emotional level, so I don't see that as a compelling reason to have Han and Leia's son become, again, a school shooter, one of the most painful and miserable kinds of evil there is.
Showing an open, operational, and years-long stable Jurassic resort was all by itself more original than everything in TFA. Deal with it.
Well, again, I couldn't help but feeling while watching the movie that this story only existed to print more money, not because anyone had a compelling, original story to tell, because I didn't see a shred of originality anywhere. And I'm not saying that I would have objected on principle to any new story that showed darkness creeping back into the universe, either. I love Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy in large part because it takes its time building up a threat - the Empire is largely contained, and it's only the quadrutrifecta of Thrawn's tactical brilliance, his discovery of C'Boath, his tracking down the Katana Fleet and his clone production that eventually becomes a major threat. Obviously, it was too late to adopt the Thrawn trilogy in any straightforward manner, but the franchise showrunners could very well have taken inspiration from the pace of that series. Instead, we got a frantically paced hard reset, which makes the Empire a major threat again over the course of a subplot.
... Which I don't even necessarily loathe in of itself, either. It's really the specific, and entirely avoidable tragedy, of Han and Leia's only kid going bad and murdering his peers that alienated me. It just struck me as the most gratuitous and laziest path to yanking us back to ANH's galactic status quo, the OT heroes be damned.
And I guess I'm a bit surprised that so many seem fairly chill about that plot point in a time when so many people are still fuming over Clark killing Zod in Man of Steel. (Which I wasn't thrilled with either, from a narrative perspective, but in its own lame context didn't strike me as totally outrageous, and far from the biggest problem with that movie.)
I personally and of mix opinions on Ben Solo's journey, but I think that there is a lot of potential to develop from there. I here the opinions that it's a rehash of Star Wars, and yeah, it is. But, the difference for me, is the characters. As much as I like Luke, Han, and Leia there is a certain appeal of Poe, Rey and Finn as they begin their journey. Obviously, there are some cookie cutter elements but the characters have very strong appeal to me, as they have distinct journeys that are just beginning. I like all of them and look forward to seeing their journey continue. I want to see them succeed.
^ Honestly, I would have been perfectly happy not having post-RotJ episodes at all, and I saw the movie more out of a sense of pop-culture duty than enthusiasm. If we accept Episode VII/more Star Wars as an inevitability, though, I already sketched out a story I'd have preferred in post #12 - have Rey be the main protagonist (i.e., no Finn or Poe or Han/Chewie), and the whole movie take place in some backwater world (that doesn't look pretty much exactly like Tatooine). Maybe sprinkle hints of a resurgent Empire here and there. At the end, Luke and a few of his Jedi swoop in and help save the day from a reprehensible but fairly limited-scale injustice, and she accepts an invitation to join his academy.
In Episode VIII, the New Republic can face a serious attack, maybe by Thrawn himself. Leia appears in a scene or two in the Mon Mothma authority figure role; Han appears in a scene or two as a top military leader. Luke and his trainees have to split up to cover more investigative ground, and maybe he gets captured and Rey teams up with one or two Solo children to both complete the mission and recue him. Maybe they don't by the end of the movie, and are themselves just barely rescued by Han's forces.
In Episode IX... well, I'll leave it at that for now. In short, I offer a lot less Han and Leia, a lot less droid stuff, less behind-the-scenes stuff of the Empire, and much smaller-scale action (in the first sequel, anyway). A cheaper, shorter, one-planet Ep VII to start with, that doesn't have a rollercoaster pace.
Would it have made a lot less money? Indubitably. Would it be less well-received, even by fans? Judging from this thread, probably, yeah. But no one would have called it an ANH rehash, and it wouldn't have ruined the lives of our Big Three.
In Episode VIII, the New Republic can face a serious attack, maybe by Thrawn himself. Leia appears in a scene or two in the Mon Mothma authority figure role; Han appears in a scene or two as a top military leader. Luke and his trainees have to split up to cover more investigative ground, and maybe he gets captured and Rey teams up with one or two Solo children to both complete the mission and recue him. Maybe they don't by the end of the movie, and are themselves just barely rescued by Han's forces.
In Episode IX... well, I'll leave it at that for now. In short, I offer a lot less Han and Leia, a lot less droid stuff, less behind-the-scenes stuff of the Empire, and much smaller-scale action (in the first sequel, anyway). A cheaper, shorter, one-planet Ep VII to start with, that doesn't have a rollercoaster pace.
Would it have made a lot less money? Indubitably. Would it be less well-received, even by fans? Judging from this thread, probably, yeah. But no one would have called it an ANH rehash, and it wouldn't have ruined the lives of our Big Three.
It seemed to me like a logical continuation of the ending that Luke would attempt to train new Jedi and some may be tempted by the dark side. I don't think it takes away from the victory at all. Leia and Han got what, 20 years of marital bliss? That's more than most people get.
This makes me think of a Dimitris Martin comedy routine where he suggested they should replace 'And they lived happily ever after' with 'And they lived pretty well, for a while.' Even if nothing went wrong with their children it all would have ended with one presiding over the other's descent into senility, and that wouldn't have lessened the value of the good times either.
This makes me think of a Dimitris Martin comedy routine where he suggested they should replace 'And they lived happily ever after' with 'And they lived pretty well, for a while.' Even if nothing went wrong with their children it all would have ended with one presiding over the other's descent into senility, and that wouldn't have lessened the value of the good times either.
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I see your point, and that might be an interesting film. Actually, I could see that working well as a lower budget scifi, set shortly after the Empire's fall.^ Honestly, I would have been perfectly happy not having post-RotJ episodes at all, and I saw the movie more out of a sense of pop-culture duty than enthusiasm. If we accept Episode VII/more Star Wars as an inevitability, though, I already sketched out a story I'd have preferred in post #12 - have Rey be the main protagonist (i.e., no Finn or Poe or Han/Chewie), and the whole movie take place in some backwater world (that doesn't look pretty much exactly like Tatooine). Maybe sprinkle hints of a resurgent Empire here and there. At the end, Luke and a few of his Jedi swoop in and help save the day from a reprehensible but fairly limited-scale injustice, and she accepts an invitation to join his academy.
In Episode VIII, the New Republic can face a serious attack, maybe by Thrawn himself. Leia appears in a scene or two in the Mon Mothma authority figure role; Han appears in a scene or two as a top military leader. Luke and his trainees have to split up to cover more investigative ground, and maybe he gets captured and Rey teams up with one or two Solo children to both complete the mission and recue him. Maybe they don't by the end of the movie, and are themselves just barely rescued by Han's forces.
In Episode IX... well, I'll leave it at that for now. In short, I offer a lot less Han and Leia, a lot less droid stuff, less behind-the-scenes stuff of the Empire, and much smaller-scale action (in the first sequel, anyway). A cheaper, shorter, one-planet Ep VII to start with, that doesn't have a rollercoaster pace.
Would it have made a lot less money? Indubitably. Would it be less well-received, even by fans? Judging from this thread, probably, yeah. But no one would have called it an ANH rehash, and it wouldn't have ruined the lives of our Big Three.
However, I agree that it is too small scale to be a Star Wars sequel, especially after ten years with no film. Even a show like Rebels is rather large scale in terms of the universe and implications. Despite obviously being a full universe, the stories that are shown are rarely small in scale, so I think it would be unrealistic to expect the new film to have their story isolated to one world in the first film.
I would like seeing Rey in a different role, perhaps in a more resistance leader role on a planet like Maz's planet, or something like that. Perhaps the resistance fighters scavenge weapons and parts from the crashed Star Destroyer. That is a pretty epic visual, in my opinion. It may be a smaller scale battles, at first, but it becomes clear that they are outnumbered. Which, like in your idea, brings Luke and his Jedi in.
However, as much as I wouldn't mind more of Rey and whomever other mains would be, the Big Three still have to deal with the consequences of their actions in ROTJ. No matter what happens, creating a new government isn't without its heartaches, and the old EU did them no favors. So, I find it odd that there is lamenting about what happens to them even though the old EU is far worse.
Obviously, this is coming from the point of view of someone who likes TFA a lot, and find it fun and enjoyable, despite the Ep. 4 rehash. The characters make it the more enjoyable story.
Your Thrawn's dead, son.
Haven't read the novels, but I say whichever canon tells a better story wins. Doesn't matter who owns the IP.
