P/C run amok...

[Naraht]

I agree that Beverly's friendship with Alyssa is a bit one-sided. Although I'm prepared to believe that Alyssa confides in Beverly, it seems unlikely that the reverse is true.

As for the problem of friendship between a superior and an inferior more generally, it is certainly present. However, the difference when it comes to the friendship between Beverly and Jean-Luc (which is what I assume Whoa Nellie was thinking of) is that they were friends long before they were in the same chain of command. Moreover, Jean-Luc was friends with Jack Crusher even though Jack served under his command. So it's not an insurmountable obstacle; I just don't think that Beverly and Alyssa have surmounted it.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Over the course of the series, the relationship between Jean-Luc Picard and Beverly Crusher developed into a deep, abiding, but strictly platonic friendship. In canon, Picard was friendly with his senior staff, but as he says to Vash in Qpid, he doesn't confide in any of them.

We were agreeing with mon capitaine's point that maintaining a platonic relationship with someone who is your superior in your direct chain of command is difficult; having a romantic relationship would be far more difficult. The many pitfalls of such a romantic entanglement between a captain and one of his officers are shown in Picard's romantic relationship with Lieutenant Commander Nella Daren in the season 6 episode 'Lessons.' Those very same pitfalls of fraternization would happen in a P/C romantic relationship.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

Edited to correct the spelling of mon capitaine.

 

[R.Barclay]

Posted by Whoa Nellie:
In canon, Picard was friendly with his senior staff, but as he says to Vash in Qpid, he doesn't confide in any of them.

Picard could say to Vash whatever he wanted, but in "Perfect Mate", for example, he took his uniform for talking with Beverly about him and Kamala.
Yes, he told nobody about his affair with Vash (no matter however important or unimportant it was for him), not because he didn't confide in his senior staff, but because he isn't a man of that sort who boasts about his "love victories" or tells everybody about how deep his feelings for a wonderful woman he had met on Risa. He isn't Riker, he is a very private man, as Vash had been told several times. But the single fact Picard doesn't discuss his intimate life with his senior staff doesn't mean he doesn't confide in them. In fact, when it became necessary, he does.

And, of course, Beverly was the last person Picard would have told about Vash, and she realised why, at once as Beverly came in Picard's quarters for having a breakfast with the captain, and it rather amused than offended Vash. (She began to feel resentment after her talk with Riker, not before.)

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by R.Barclay:

Posted by Whoa Nellie:
In canon, Picard was friendly with his senior staff, but as he says to Vash in Qpid, he doesn't confide in any of them.

Picard could say to Vash whatever he wanted,

The exchange goes like this:
Vash: "He was right about one thing, Jean-Luc. As ridiculous as it was, his game did prove how much you care."

Picard (tenderly stroking her cheek): "I may not share my feelings with my crew, but I do have them."

Vash knew every member of his senior staff, so he obviously had no trouble sharing his feelings (and a few other things ) with her.

Posted by R.Barclay:
but in "Perfect Mate", for example, he took his uniform for talking with Beverly about him and Kamala.

Yet how many more times do we see him confide in Guinan?

We agree that Picard and Beverly had a stronger friendship than he had with his other senior staff, but there was still a strong boundary that Picard would not cross even with her--personal feelings and thoughts that he didn't share with any of his senior staff as acknowledged by every member of the senior staff in Qpid.

In the beginning of the series, Picard hadn't laid eyes on Beverly since Jack's funeral (IIRC) and didn't seem all that comfortable with her. It was only over the course of the series that they began re-building a friendship based their respective relationships with Jack. In Attached, he acknowledges the feelings he had for her at one time and then says: "And then, little by little, I realized that I didn't have those feelings anymore . . . twenty years is, after all, a long time." To which Beverly replies: "And now we're friends." They grew comfortable with one another over the years, but there was still a limit to how close Picard would allow himself to get with any of his senior staff. Really, in terms of his crew, he shared more of who he was behind the uniform with Neela Daren in their brief relationship than he ever did with Beverly over years of breakfasts together. Obviously we could make that same point about Vash and their two encounters (Captain's Holiday and Qpid), but the point of mon capitaine's that we were agreeing with involved the difficulties of friendship between individuals of different rank especially when one is the immediate superior of the other. Neela actually makes for a better example of that point when the relationship is extended to romantic involvements than Vash since Vash was a civilian.

Neela also makes for a good example of the fact that Picard and Crusher can maintain a strong, abiding friendship and still find happiness with other people. Lessons was a Season Six episode--the friendship that Picard and Crusher had established at that point didn't change, it didn't need to change because romantic relationships didn't affect the boundaries of their friendship in any way, regardless of which one of them found love with someone else.

Warmest wishes,
Whoa Nellie

Sorry hit the post button by mistake:
Someone pointed out that while Beverly refers to Ogawa as Alyssa, Alyssa refers to Beverly as 'Doctor'. The same can be said for Picard and Crusher. While he referred to her as 'Beverly' and 'Doctor Crusher' fairly evenly, she really only called him Jean-Luc when they were alone. In front of anyone else, it was almost always 'Captain.' That is a pretty good parallel to the example cited about Crusher and Ogawa.

 

[R.Barclay]

Posted by Whoa Nellie:
Picard (tenderly stroking her cheek): "I may not share my feelings with my crew, but I do have them."

Vash knew every member of his senior staff, so he obviously had no trouble sharing his feelings (and a few other things ) with her.

I may be dumb, but I didn't get the last line.

Posted by R.Barclay:
but in "Perfect Mate", for example, he took his uniform for talking with Beverly about him and Kamala.

Yet how many more times do we see him confide in Guinan?

You mean "confide in" not *only* about romantic affairs, don't you? Then I agree, he confided in Guinan... and Riker ("Tapestry"'s finale, for example), Data (talking about Picard's insane grandfather in "Night Terrors"), Troi ("Family") and even Wesley Crusher ("Coming of Age", "Samaritan Snare") as well. I don't really object against your description of P/C relationship, I object against your statement that Picard doesn't confide in his senior staff (including Beverly). IMO, he does. (Even if he is reluctant to tell them about his intimate life, what reluctance I heartily approve.)

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by R.Barclay:
You mean "confide in" not *only* about romantic affairs, don't you? Then I agree, he confided in Guinan... and Riker ("Tapestry"'s finale, for example), Data (talking about Picard's insane grandfather in "Night Terrors"), Troi ("Family") and even Wesley Crusher ("Coming of Age", "Samaritan Snare") as well. I don't really object against your description of P/C relationship, I object against your statement that Picard doesn't confide in his senior staff (including Beverly). IMO, he does. (Even if he is reluctant to tell them about his intimate life, what reluctance I heartily approve.)

And yet Deanna was the one he confided in/talked to about his relationship with Neela in Lessons. He is friendly with his senior staff, but none of them really rise to the level of confidante. He talks to them about issues that are pertinent to the situation at hand, but when it comes to his deepest feelings if he shares them at all it's with Guinan or Deanna (in the course of a counseling session). Earlier in Qpid, Picard tells Vash that "a Captain does not reveal his personal feelings to his crew." He may seek their unique perspectives on a situation and share personal thoughts that are pertinent to that situation, but there's a big difference between sharing thoughts and sharing feelings. He shares more of his personal thoughts with Beverly than any other member of his senior staff, no question; he shares more of his personal feelings with Guinan.

Warmest wishes,
Whoa Nellie

Edited for one last thought. In Best of Both Worlds Part 2, Guinan and Riker have the following exchange.

GUINAN "Did he ever tell you why we were so close?"

RIKER "No."

GUINAN "Then I'm not going to tell you either. But it was beyond friendship, beyond family... and I will let him go. You must, too."

 

[mon capitaine]

Posted by Whoa Nellie:

Posted by mon capitaine:
I think we have here an example of how difficult it is to maintain a friendship with someone of a different rank, especially someone who is your superior.

Excellent point. :thumbsup: Nicely put.

Aw shucks thanks.

I suppose I have to add that its probably easier if you met them from outside the command structure in the first place. I would guess Jack and Picard met in this way and probably Beverly too. They may subsequently serve together but I think the friendship would've had a firm foundation by not having to follow orders. Beverly is now a member of his crew, but she has great licence with him. That must be because they are friends and not because she's just naturally insubordinate with everyone.

The Guinan relationship is interesting. Surely she technically counts as a member of the crew even though she is a civilian. Picard would certainly be responsible for her and her actions whilst she was aboard. Time's Arrow never really answered much about the basis of their relationship. TPTB kept it mysterious so we'll never know but I've never thought it to be sexual at any time. Interestingly, she never calls him Jean-Luc to my recollection – it's always Picard – so use of first-name doesn't always denote friendship with him.

Personally my mind boggles at the thought of Picard doing Riker impressions in order to entertain Vash, but there you go. We didn't see any evidence of this information exchange in Captain’s Holiday (my memory is that he was keeping the two lives very separate) so I'd have to say it's a bolted-on idea to help Q-Pid play.

Although much is made of Picard’s private nature, he is capable of recounting stories about himself to others – Wesley gets a couple I think (Coming of Age and Samaritan Snare spring to mind). So Picard is capable of opening up with others. If he never mentioned Vash to anyone on the ship then I guess it was because he saw it as a holiday fling and as a gentleman he would not seek to 'guyishly' share the intimate details with anyone else.

 

[Naraht]

Posted by mon capitaine:
So Picard is capable of opening up with others. If he never mentioned Vash to anyone on the ship then I guess it was because he saw it as a holiday fling and as a gentleman he would not seek to 'guyishly' share the intimate details with anyone else.

Indeed. Furthermore, the assymetry demonstrated in Q-Pid is, to my mind, very interesting. Picard has obviously told Vash a lot more about the Enterprise crew than he has told them about Vash. But when Beverly says to Vash "he never mentioned you," she doesn't look hurt or left out by this. Rather, she says it in an amused way, and seems to feel that if Picard didn't mention Vash to her, it was because she (Vash) wasn't all that important. Vash and Beverly get along well in Q-Pid because they both understand their respective roles; Vash is just passing through, and Beverly knows this.

EDIT: As for not sharing his personal feelings with Beverly, surely she was the one that he chose to confide in about Kamala? That was a very touchy situation, both emotionally and diplomatically, and he went to her.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by mon capitaine:
Personally my mind boggles at the thought of Picard doing Riker impressions in order to entertain Vash, but there you go. We didn't see any evidence of this information exchange in Captain’s Holiday (my memory is that he was keeping the two lives very separate) so I'd have to say it's a bolted-on idea to help Q-Pid play.

Canon
Beverly "I didn't mean to interrupt. The Captain and I often share morning tea."
Vash "Yes, Jean-Luc has told me all about you."

Picard feels close enough to Vash to share with her ALL about Beverly Crusher.

Canon
Vash "Not at all. It's just that Jean-Luc does a very good imitation of you."
Riker "He does?"

Picard has shared with Vash his imitation of his first officer's pick-up line.

We also saw Picard do an impersonation of Doctor Vassbinder in the Season 6 Timescape.

Canon
Picard tells Vash "a Captain does not reveal his personal feelings to his crew."

Canon
Picard "I'm surprised he wasn't too busy gloating over his victory."

Vash "He was right about one thing, Jean-Luc. As ridiculous as it was, his game did prove you still care."

Picard "I may not share my feelings with my crew, but I do have them."


Because both halves of Whoa Nellie have psychology degrees, we understand there are different types of intimacy intellectual, emotional, physical, and spiritual. We see in Picard's relationship with Vash, and later with Nella Daren, evidence of intellectual, emotional and physical intimacy. With Guinan, we see evidence of intellectual, emotional and spiritual intimacy. We see Picard's friendships with his senior staff as based on intellectual intimacy. We agree that Picard and Beverly had a stronger friendship than he had with his other senior staff. In the beginning of the series, Picard didn't seem all that comfortable with Beverly. It was only over the course of the series that they began re-building a friendship based their respective relationships with Jack. They grew comfortable with one another over the years, but there was still a limit to how close Picard would allow himself to get with any of his senior staff. There was a strong boundary that Picard would not cross even with Beverly -- personal feelings and thoughts that he didn't share with any of his senior staff as acknowledged by every member of the senior staff in Qpid. This emotional distance is also highlighted by the fact that Picard never participated in the senior staff's weekly poker games until the very end of "All Good Things."

You made a very good point, maintaining a platonic relationship with someone who is your superior in your direct chain of command is difficult. We would add that having a romantic relationship would be far more difficult. The many pitfalls of such a romantic entanglement between a captain and one of his officers are shown in Picard's romantic relationship with Lieutenant Commander Nella Daren in the season 6 episode 'Lessons.' Those very same pitfalls of fraternization would happen in a P/C romantic relationship.

Posted by mon capitaine: If he never mentioned Vash to anyone on the ship then I guess it was because he saw it as a holiday fling and as a gentleman he would not seek to 'guyishly' share the intimate details with anyone else.

Canon
Picard to Nella "I promise you... I'm not one for casual relationships."

We doubt Picard would consider Vash, or ANY woman he had a physical relationship with during the run of the series or the movies as a mere fling. We see this as another one of those unfortunate P/C shipper tendencies where they are forced to take Picard or Crusher out of character to make the P/C relationship work. In our opinion to suggest Picard would be so callous about a woman seriously under minds the characterization of Picard as establishes by series canon.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[mon capitaine]

^ Oh I don't know, I think it's completely in character.

It's canon he ran out on Jenice Manheim in We'll Always Have Paris.

He was shown to be something of a dog in his youth as depicted by the events in Tapestry.

Frankly sleeping with his friend in that episode was a bit shoddy and rather taking advantage of her – he can pretend it was meaningful but nobody believes that do they?

And somehow I doubt he'll be stopping by the Baku planet anytime soon to look up Anij again.

The man is unreliable. I doubt either Vash or Beverly are going to have much success at establishing a long term relationship, but I'm having fun speculating.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by mon capitaine:
It's canon he ran out on Jenice Manheim in We'll Always Have Paris.

He was shown to be something of a dog in his youth as depicted by the events in Tapestry.

All canon, we admit he was dog in his youth. Which is why we said during the run of the series or the movies.

Posted by mon capitaine:
but I'm having fun speculating.

Here is where we share common ground. We freely admit to having way too much fun with this stuff.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Naraht]

Posted by Whoa Nellie:
We doubt Picard would consider Vash, or ANY woman he had a physical relationship with during the run of the series or the movies as a mere fling. We see this as another one of those unfortunate P/C shipper tendencies where they are forced to take Picard or Crusher out of character to make the P/C relationship work. In our opinion to suggest Picard would be so callous about a woman seriously under minds the characterization of Picard as establishes by series canon.

If anything undermined Picard's character as it had been hitherto established, I dare say that it was Captain's Holiday rather than P/C "shipper tendencies". Patrick Stewart's desire for more "sex and shooting," which is what Captain's Holiday was written to provide, hardly means "I wish Picard would settle down in a meaningful loving relationship". Unless you have a very different understanding of the English language than me, "sex and shooting" means typical action-hero style romancing. Flings, in other words...

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by Naraht:
If anything undermined Picard's character as it had been hitherto established, I dare say that it was Captain's Holiday rather than P/C "shipper tendencies".

Granted, Stewart's desire for "sex and shooting" was the inspiration for Captain's Holiday. That does not make it canon for the show's characterization of Picard. Canon is only what is aired. Nothing that is said before a script is written, in any scenes that hit the cutting room floor or after the episode is shot counts as anything other than fanon fodder.

In canon, Picard says to Nella "I promise you... I'm not one for casual relationships." -- that's canon.

We always thought that canon developed characters but if you want to use fanon to develop Picard's character that's what shipper fanfic is for.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[Naraht]

^^^ Although I'd like to think that I have a certain amount of respect for canon, I do think that a strict acceptance of everything that takes place onscreen can lead to indiscriminate approval of everything that a show does, good or bad.

We have all seen episodes of television shows (including Star Trek, I'm sad to say) that were badly written, that portrayed the characters as behaving in implausible ways, and that were generally not up to the standard that we would like to see. Now, those episodes were canon. But if you are going to accept canon as inviolable, that means that you can never say "I wasn't so sure about the way Beverly was acting in that scene".

Understandably, canon exists so that fans can have some kind of shared understanding of the universe that their fandom inhabits. But if canon means that we can't criticise the writing of TPTB, as well as the writing of fanfic authors, then I think it has been taken too far.

So I do defend my right to say that Picard was out of character in Captain's Holiday, at least with regards to what had come before on the show.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by Naraht:
So I do defend my right to say that Picard was out of character in Captain's Holiday, at least with regards to what had come before on the show.

You certainly have the right to disregard any piece of canon you don't like.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[R.Barclay]

OK, I didn't really want to talk about this, but I realised that if I accept Whoa Nellie's point of view at Picard and Vash's relationships, I would begin to hate "Captain's Holiday" and "Qpid", and I like these episodes and don't want it.

I want to specify that I amn't P/C shipper, I, if anything, prefer Picard and Darren's affair, though I like the notion about Picard falling in love with his best friend's wife and never telling them both about it. In fact, I would have been even more satisfied if Beverly hadn't learned about it in "Attached" or if they hadn't gotten married, though in the alternate timeline. (Actually, I tried to read Naraht's fanfic, "Attached" alternate version, and wasn't able to go beyond their kiss, because I did feel about it as about Picard's betrayal of Jack.) So I ask Whoa Nellie not to accuse me of some "unfortunate P/C shipper tendencies where they are forced to take Picard or Crusher out of character to make the P/C relationship work."

I, too, believe that "the best fan fiction is always a believable extrapolation from series canon". But I never believe that "in TNG canon, Vash was Picard's main love interest". (Though I don't contend Beverly Crusher, or any other woman, was.)

In my opinion, Picard and Vash's relationships in "Captain's Holiday" consisted of sex, feeling of andventure and mutual double-crossing. As mon capitaine put it, "holiday fling". Picard told Vash many things about the "Enterprise"'s crew not because of intellectual, emotional and physical intimacy with her, but because he thought they would never meet again. As fellow travellers might confide each in other for the same reason and tell things they wouldn't tell their freinds or family.
[And, mon capitaine, I think Picard might do Riker impressions as a little private revenge for Riker made the horgon joke upon him.]

We doubt Picard would consider Vash, or ANY woman he had a physical relationship with during the run of the series or the movies as a mere fling. [...] In our opinion to suggest Picard would be so callous about a woman seriously under minds the characterization of Picard as establishes by series canon.

In my opinion, to suggest Picard would be capable for serious feelings (I don't mean there his stroking her cheek, hot sex or things like that) toward the female version of Q* much more contradicts "the characterization of Picard as establishes by series canon" than the "holiday fling" notion about him and Vash.

* [It is canon - Picard (about Q): "He's devious, amoral, unreliable, irresponsible and... and definitely not to be trusted!"
Vash: Remind you of someone you know?
Picard: As a matter of fact, it does.]

I don't think this attitude would be so callous, I think Picard was more callous with Jenice, because the canon implied some intellectual and emotional, if not physical, intimacy of Picard with her, unlike with Vash... And I see the rash abortion of these relationships (through breaking the appointment) as something is much worse than calling a spade a spade... i.e. a "holiday fling" a "holiday fling". Yes, they (Picard and Vash) had a physical relationship (or rather, it had been implied so, because I saw them only kiss, no more)... and what? It is 24th century, and it is Risa... people come there exactly for things like that.

All canon, we admit he was dog in his youth. Which is why we said during the run of the series or the movies.

Picard was 37 when he broke his appointment with Jenice. Not really youth. And there was Miranda Vigo whom Picard had been romantically involved with during shore leave on Earth, in his 49.
And for the run of the series or the movies, in fact, I don't remember any other woman he *for sure* had a physical relationship with in their time. Was it so clear with Darren and Anij?
In my opinion, it was unique case with Vash (because it was only "holiday fling" matter), and Picard-with-other-women-canon isn't really applicable. When Picard said to Nella "I promise you... I'm not one for casual relationships", imho, he meant "serious relationships" with some intellectual and emotional intimacy. (Or he might simply try to look better - should we believe everything people say about themselves?)

You may object that Picard obviously had some feelings for Vash in "Qpid" beyond "hot sex" matter, and I agree he cared about her... but it is canon: in the end of the episode she left him and went away with his enemy... the creature, who was responsible for Picard's most dreadful experience in his life. Of course, he didn't tell her about his assimilation that had happened after their first meeting, so she didn't know about it, unlike his crew.

[About me previous posts' topic... I agree with that you said about different types of intimacy intellectual, emotional, physical, and spiritual. Though I don't agree with your view of Picard with Vash's intimacy, and I *do* think that Picard may (and did) share his feelings with his senior staff, now and again. He said: "I *may not* share my feelings with my crew, but I do have them." "May not", not "do not".

But I agree there were personal feelings and thoughts that he didn't share with any of his senior staff and the certain emotional distance. I think, though, the reason of it isn't his captaincy, but simply his nature... i. e. he would keep this emotional distance not only with his senior officers, but with others as well, even with Vash. (Though with her Picard's boundary might go in the way different from the way with his crew - he might do Riker impressions before her, but didn't tell about more serious matters... his assimilation, for example.)
When Picard says to Vash: "a Captain does not reveal his personal feelings to his crew", she asked "Is that a Starfleet regulation, or did you make that up yourself?"
And I think the right answer is the second option. "The captain is a very private man", and I believe the latter isn't a consequence of the former, though may be influnced by it.
And I agree with mon capitaine:

If he never mentioned Vash to anyone on the ship then I guess it was because he saw it as a holiday fling and as a gentleman he would not seek to 'guyishly' share the intimate details with anyone else.

Vash's affair wasn't important for him as Darren or Kamala ones, so he had no necessity to discuss it, and he isn't a man who talk freely about his intimate life without extreme necessity... in the way Deanna and Beverly do, for example.]

But she left him, going away with Q and he let her go, inspite of his feelings for her.

Actually, I had the draft of my fanfic (not P/C or P/ somebody), where Vash explains to Riker why she went with Q. She said something like that (it is the rough translation):

You know, there is the saying that starship captains married to their ships? But Jean-Luc's case is worse, he married to his duty... his notions about right and wrong. And all his other feelings that don't go along with it is no more than an adultery. He can have these feelings, but he would despise himself for it. He can't tolerate interference of these feelings in his duty... so he lied to me as I lied to him, on Risa. And he was in fury when he had found out my plans about Tagus... breaking of the law aboard his ship! And then there was that Q's game... they were going to kill me, and he ran for my help, alone. It was foolish of him, of course, but... I was able to see his feelings in action, and they were strong as never before - because at that time they agreed with his duty. And after that I can't help saying to Q that he was absolutely wrong, that the game brought out the best in Jean-Luc, his nobility, courage, self-sacrifice, tenderness... I had a glance of what our love could be like, and I realised that it never would be like this, because his duty ever would stand between us... because we couldn't change who we are. And so then I went away with Q.

^ This piece wasn't intended for characterizing Vash in the fanfic, so I don't claim to read her soul... but it is that I think about how "Qpid' developed and changed Picard and Vash relationships from "Captain's Holiday".

I agree with mon capitaine's words:

she is fundamentally dishonest: she lies and steals and that has got to be a deal-breaker for Picard. Kamala's description of his perfect mate didn't include 'and may steal the family silver at any moment'.

(I don't really care whether all archaeologists behave the way Vash does or no... I know Picard isn't an archaeologist enough for it.) And I can add, having bonded with Picard, Kamala, by her words, have learnt the meaning of duty. I doubt Vash ever learns it. And she said to Picard, in the canon "I cannot change who I am for you or anyone."
So I think all "Risa affair" was only a "holiday fling" for Picard.

Yes, in "Qpid", as Q said, Picard had feelings (mostly negative) about her - like Q or Ardra, Vash had a capability to get under Picard's skin. And yes, he didn't want her die... but as he said to Q, "I would try to save any innocent life, as you know."
In fact, all Q's "point": "they might have been killed. So might you. All for the love of a maid" and all his talk about Picard's weakness and vulnerability are complete nonsense... Picard should reply at it: "A year ago I risked my ship and billions of innocent lives to save *you*. It isn't the love of a maid that made me and my crew vulnerable... It is our humanity" or something like that. But, alas, Picard was too stupid or too noble for it.
But yes, Vash was right in that she said to Q, and Q's game made Picard and Vash closer each to other... and at the same time it separated each from other. Forever. Or the canon says so.

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Posted By R.Barclay:
In my opinion, to suggest Picard would be capable for serious feelings (I don't mean there his stroking her cheek, hot sex or things like that) toward the female version of Q* much more contradicts "the characterization of Picard as establishes by series canon" than the "holiday fling" notion about him and Vash.

* [It is canon - Picard (about Q): "He's devious, amoral, unreliable, irresponsible and... and definitely not to be trusted!"
Vash: Remind you of someone you know?
Picard: As a matter of fact, it does.]

Yes, let me note (lest P/Q drop out of this 'shipping war ) that Q does possess the qualities that Picard might find attractive in Vash. I don't think that it's fair to suggest that Picard can't be attracted to those qualities merely because Q possesses them, since he is, at the very least, getting a serious rapport with Q late on in the series.

That's one of the things that I like about the P/Q relationship, as well as the obvious chemistry between the actors, that it grows steadily from mutual mistrust to a guarded friendship with Q looking out for his "Beloved pet".

I'll also note that Q evidently possesses the ability to stand up to Picard, and becomes a confidant of his, both qualities which have been identified as important upthread.

I increasingly find myself thinking that P/Q can hold its own against its rivals ...

 

[Amelie]

Posted by R.Barclay:

I want to specify that I amn't P/C shipper, I, if anything, prefer Picard and Darren's affair, though I like the notion about Picard falling in love with his best friend's wife and never telling them both about it. In fact, I would have been even more satisfied if Beverly hadn't learned about it in "Attached" or if they hadn't gotten married, though in the alternate timeline. (Actually, I tried to read Naraht's fanfic, "Attached" alternate version, and wasn't able to go beyond their kiss, because I did feel about it as about Picard's betrayal of Jack.)

Well WHY does ANYONE see Picard making a move on Beverly as betraying Jack?

This is something I have never understood. Maybe shortly after his death, it would have been wholly inappropriate. But by the time of Attached, Jack has been dead for what 15 years? How is that betrayal?

I can think of a hell of a lot of real life examples involving death of a spouse and then the widowed dating the deceased spouses best friend. In England YEARS ago, a little girl called Josie Russell and her mother and sister were attacked by a man with a hammer. The mother and sister were killed but Josie survived. She was raised alone by her father. Not long after the death, Josie's father was in a relationship with his wife's best friend. He referred to her as his "soul mate". OK: so his wife wasn't his soul mate then? And was he glad to have found his "soul mate" thru his wife's death? I thought that comment was inappropriate and a betrayal of his dead wife and his dead younger daughter.

Also, that TV presenter Caron Keating, died tragically of breast cancer leaving behind a husband and two young boys. She's not even been dead a year and her husband was getting cosy with her best friend. Again, too soon and inappropriate.

But with the P/C thing, it always pissed me off how people said it was a betrayal of Jack. Whether it's appropriate or not depends entirely on the circumstances. The circumstances by the time of Attached are that Jack has been dead 15 years, in that time, Beverly has not lived like a nun, she has no doubt had intimate relations even before her posting to the Enterprise D. Picard has been good to Wesley (allowing him to serve as an acting officer and encouraging his talents) and a role model for him, he has also been a good friend to Beverly for some time. If they had not been telepathically linked, he would no doubt never have admitted his feelings. So it's not as if, he was continually trying to move in on her.

It's not as if he barely waited until Jack's body was cold before he moved in on Bev was it?

I just never thought Jack was a factor in whether P/C should be together. Perhaps he would even like it: Jack thought highly of him as they were best friends and also as Picard is good to his son. Maybe he would want his wife to be happy (even if it's with his best friend) rather than be single to the end of her days.

I never thought the relationship with a commanding officer thing was a problem either. If you ask me, more problems would come with R/T than with P/C. R/T are posted to the Titan together, so Troi IS married to her commanding officer. It is thus obviously allowed and not against regulations. Also, all the way thru ST:Nemesis, Riker is overly protective of Troi. Even When Shinzon merely says she's beautiful and he's never seen a human woman before, you've got Riker moving over next to her, obviously to protect her. Would he have done that for anyone else? Also, when Troi is mentally "raped" by Shinzon he seems to disagree with Picard's decision not to relieve her of duty and he does not seem to like it (if you look at his expression). If you ask me, that's asking for trouble to put those two on the same ship. Once he's in the driving seat and not Picard, based on his reactions in Nemesis to his wife facing ANY sort of danger, she's gonna get special treatment left and right and put above the rest of the crew.

It also happens thru the series. There's a lot of examples but the only one I can think of now is in Night Terrors. She requests to be a part of the away team to the Brittain. Riker agrees but looks worried and like he'd rather not have her there.

Riker has showed a reluctance to place Troi in danger MANY times. As we've seen for Picard and Darren in Lessons, that is bad and you can't serve together if you feel that way. Well apparently that's not a problem for R/T. YET!

So I think all the reasons why P/C supposedly shouldn't have a relationship weren't that strong and certainly not insurmountable.

 

[Whoa Nellie]

Posted by R.Barclay:
Picard told Vash many things about the "Enterprise"'s crew not because of intellectual, emotional and physical intimacy with her, but because he thought they would never meet again.

That may be your interpretation of the canon. However our interpretation of the canon is that we see in Picard's relationship with Vash evidence of intellectual, emotional and physical intimacy.

You offer no canon to prove your interpretation is correct or that our interpretation is wrong.

Posted by R.Barclay:
[And, mon capitaine, I think Picard might do Riker impressions as a little private revenge for Riker made the horgon joke upon him.]

We agree here. Definite possibility.

Posted by R.Barclay:
In my opinion, to suggest Picard would be capable for serious feelings (I don't mean there his stroking her cheek, hot sex or things like that) toward the female version of Q* much more contradicts "the characterization of Picard as establishes by series canon" than the "holiday fling" notion about him and Vash.

You offer an opinion but again no canon to back it up. We offer our canon proof that Picard has serious feelings for Vash. Q makes the point of his game very clear.

Q "This human emotion, love, it's a dangerous thing, Picard and obviously you're ill-equipped to handle it. She's found a vulnerability in you, a vulnerability I've been looking for for years. If I'd known sooner, I would have appeared as a female. Mark my words, Picard, this is your Achilles heel . . . You deny that you care for this woman? Believe me I'd be doing you a big favor if I turned her into a Klabnian eel . . . I was just trying to help . . . You would have me stand idly by as she led you to your destruction?" To which Picard answers an emphatic Yes!

In the Tower:
Q "Sadly, they're all fine... but the point is they could have been killed, and you might have been too... all for the "Love Of A Maid." My debt to you is paid, Picard, if you have learned how weak and vulnerable you really are... if you can finally see how "Love" brought out the worst in you...

Vash "Nonsense. You're absolutely wrong. It brought out the best in him. (to Picard, intimately) His nobility, courage, self-sacrifice. His tenderness."

Q (to Vash) "You're good. Very good."

Picard (end of his patience) "Enough of this."

Q "Indeed."

IN THE READY ROOM

Picard ENTERS. As the doors CLOSE behind him Vash MATERIALIZES.

Vash "Hello, Jean-Luc."

Picard "(smiling) Well, this is a relief. I was afraid that Q...

Vash "There were a few things he wanted to discuss with me."

Picard "I'm surprised he wasn't too busy gloating over his victory."

Vash "He was right about one thing, Jean-Luc. As ridiculous as it was, his game did prove you still care."

Picard "I may not share my feelings with my crew, but I do have them."

Q is victorious because Picard has serious feelings for Vash.

Posted by R.Barclay:
* [It is canon - Picard (about Q): "He's devious, amoral, unreliable, irresponsible and... and definitely not to be trusted!"
Vash: Remind you of someone you know?
Picard: As a matter of fact, it does.]

This is absolutely canon. In fact in both of our timelines, we not only acknowledge it and deal with it, but we revel in it.

Posted by R.Barclay:
When Picard said to Nella "I promise you... I'm not one for casual relationships", imho, he meant "serious relationships" with some intellectual and emotional intimacy. (Or he might simply try to look better - should we believe everything people say about themselves?)

It was in another thread where Gold Grizzly said something about taking what the writers meant at face value. There is no canon evidence to suggest Picard's statement to Nella was anything but truthful.

Posted by R.Barclay:
it is canon: in the end of the episode she left him and went away with his enemy... the creature, who was responsible for Picard's most dreadful experience in his life.

Yes, again it is canon that Vash left with Q. In fact in both of our timelines, we not only acknowledge it and deal with it, we use it. It is also canon that before she left;

Picard "As payment in full for your debt to me, you will guarantee her safety..."

Q "She will not be harmed, Jean-Luc. I promise you that."

As far as Q and the Borg; there is this exchange at the end of Season 2's episode Q Who?

Picard "Q might have done the right thing for the wrong reason."

Guinan "Meaning?"

Picard "Perhaps we needed a good kick in our complacency to get us ready for what's ahead."

Posted by R.Barclay:
And I agree with mon capitaine:

If he never mentioned Vash to anyone on the ship then I guess it was because he saw it as a holiday fling and as a gentleman he would not seek to 'guyishly' share the intimate details with anyone else.

That is your opinion. However, taking what the writers meant at face value, in canon Picard states his reason to Vash very clearly "a Captain does not reveal his personal feelings to his crew."

Posted by R.Barclay:
Vash's affair wasn't important for him as Darren or Kamala ones, so he had no necessity to discuss it,

And your canon to back up this statement would be…

Posted by R.Barclay:
And I can add, having bonded with Picard, Kamala, by her words, have learnt the meaning of duty. I doubt Vash ever learns it. And she said to Picard, in the canon "I cannot change who I am for you or anyone."

This also can be seen to highlight how Vash is an independent woman, her own person. Kamala is not. Kamala simply exists to please whatever man she is with.

Posted by R.Barclay:
In fact, all Q's "point": "they might have been killed. So might you. All for the love of a maid" and all his talk about Picard's weakness and vulnerability are complete nonsense... Picard should reply at it: "A year ago I risked my ship and billions of innocent lives to save *you*. It isn't the love of a maid that made me and my crew vulnerable... It is our humanity" or something like that. But, alas, Picard was too stupid or too noble for it.

Let's deal with canon as it is. That's not what Picard said. What Picard said was "I'm surprised he wasn't too busy gloating over his victory."

Posted by R.Barclay:
Q's game made Picard and Vash closer each to other... and at the same time it separated each from other. Forever. Or the canon says so.

Does it? Canon has left that wide open. In DS9's episode Qless, Vash tells Miles O'Brien that now that's she's back maybe she'll have to look Jean-Luc up.

We're not saying that you can't spin the canon any which way you please. Just that it is your version.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

 

[WillsBabe]

Posted by Amelie:
I never thought the relationship with a commanding officer thing was a problem either. If you ask me, more problems would come with R/T than with P/C.

I know this is a P/C thread, but I enjoyed reading your comments about R/T and think I agree with what you are saying.