Overt mililtarism?

[Captain X]

I would argue the exact opposite; that Starfleet is primarily a scientific, diplomatic and exploratory institution with an additional military mandate. A supposition that seams to have been borne out on ENT, for whatever that's worth.

Non-military organizations do not engage in military conflicts or take military actions. The military has a history of doing scientific research. The military has been responsible for conducting exploration at least into the mid-20th century and continues to conduct scientific research. Kirk stated at least once that he was a soldier. There is no reason why a military organization simply wouldn't take on even more diplomatic and exploratory missions in addition to the ones they already have. There is already precedence for this in the modern military as well as historically. There is far more to the military than the tip of the spear. Why is this such a difficult concept?

 

[Mysterion]

I would argue the exact opposite; that Starfleet is primarily a scientific, diplomatic and exploratory institution with an additional military mandate. A supposition that seams to have been borne out on ENT, for whatever that's worth.

Non-military organizations do not engage in military conflicts or take military actions. The military has a history of doing scientific research. The military has been responsible for conducting exploration at least into the mid-20th century and continues to conduct scientific research. Kirk stated at least once that he was a soldier. There is no reason why a military organization simply wouldn't take on even more diplomatic and exploratory missions in addition to the ones they already have. There is already precedence for this in the modern military as well as historically. There is far more to the military than the tip of the spear. Why is this such a difficult concept?

I agree.

I think TOS is a lot more "militaristic" than a lot of people would prefer to remember after what I like to call the "TNG revisionism" of Star Trek. I've seen a trend, especially in many novels, of trying to re-cast a lot of TOS events, attitudes, characters, etc. to fit into a sort of TNG-era light of the "kinder-gentler" ST sensibility that Roddenberry was trying to sell at the time.

 

[Captain X]

I actually even came up with a fairly decent explanation for the TNG attitude. Basically it's been a while since they had a conflict with anyone, so Starfleet has started to get lax again. It happens all the time in the military that when there isn't something pressing going on, standards tend to go down. If you look back at the 19th and 20th century, pretty much the start of every war or conflict we got into started out with the US trying to quickly get its military back into fighting shape. So basically Starfleet went lax, crewmembers complained about long tours of duty away from their family so families were allowed on board ship, and with no real need for defense, RoEs changed, and the exploratory and scientific aspects of the organization were allowed to come forward and get more focus. If you think about it, Starfleet getting its ass handed to it at the beginning of the Dominion War fits perfectly with the US model I mentioned above, because that's exactly what happened in the beginning of WWII.

 

[Nerroth]

In-universe, what happened with Starfleet is obvious: the Borg scared the crap out of them. Before the Borg, the Federation thought they were pretty badass, that there wasn't much left to fear out there, that they could do their thing, boldly going and all. Then they ran into the Borg, who shrugged off the Enterprise like it was nothing, and decided that they needed to take a few more levels in badass.

Before Wolf 359, it would seem the Federation was on par with the Romulans and Klingons in terms of military power. Then... they had a sudden immense buildup. New ship designs, new weapons systems. They were gearing up to defend against a threat with a very clear potential to destroy the Federation.

At some point in the future, Starfleet'll calm down and be less blatantly gun-toting. These things are cyclical, methinks.

Not to mention how many of those ships ended up being used - and lost - against the Jem'Hadar a few years later...


Starship designs don't exist in a vacuum - although the ships themselves (mostly) fly in one.

If Earth/Vulcan/Andoria/the UFP are enjoying a protracted era of peace and stability along their most notable borders, the time and effort can be made to develop ships which are more exploration-oriented. (Well, the Andorians were military-minded even then... who's to say they didn't play a role in keeping that side of the equation on the minds of future Starfleet engineering teams?)

However, in eras where rival empires or emergent threats are a more prominent issue, different design philosophies usually emerge... or perhaps not, at least not until Starfleet gets caught with its proverbial trousers down.


(This can be seen in the Star Fleet Universe, too - the Federation relied mainly on balanced ship designs for much of its history, but in the face of the Coalition and Andromedan invasions had to turn to more combat-oriented starships. And even then, the Feds were more likely to build survey or exploration cruisers than pretty much anyone else in the Alpha Octant. However, one thing to bear in mind is that even if a war cruiser is not as well-rounded in terms of overall capabilities as a regular cruiser, it is still limited by hull design and structure issues from having much more weapons. Their advantage is not in firepower - it's in the numbers the Feds can crank them out of the shipyards.)

 

[Wingsley]

In-universe, what happened with Starfleet is obvious: the Borg scared the crap out of them. Before the Borg, the Federation thought they were pretty badass, that there wasn't much left to fear out there, that they could do their thing, boldly going and all. Then they ran into the Borg, who shrugged off the Enterprise like it was nothing, and decided that they needed to take a few more levels in badass.

Before Wolf 359, it would seem the Federation was on par with the Romulans and Klingons in terms of military power. Then... they had a sudden immense buildup. New ship designs, new weapons systems. They were gearing up to defend against a threat with a very clear potential to destroy the Federation.

At some point in the future, Starfleet'll calm down and be less blatantly gun-toting. These things are cyclical, methinks.

Hmmm...

Interesting take on Starfleet's reaction to the Borg. However, DS9's drama showed a different way to deal with the Dominion using the technology originally built to deal with the Borg: the Defiant.

Despite my criticism of post-TOS TREK, one thing that Berman & co. did get right was how the Federation dealt with a formidable threat. The Defiant was, essentially, the "real" dreadnought, just as the Federation would be expected to build it. No super-huge multi-nacelle battleship to maintain. The Federation chose an small, elegant, simple design that would be easier to build and maintain relative to a full-size starship.

One thing that the very structure of the TREK universe makes clear is that even if you do build a fleet of warships, it would be hard to house enough troops to actually invade and occupy any significant number of enemy planets. The logistics lead to a whole new magnitude of problems: ships in TREK, even big ones, have only so much room.

 

[sojourner]

You could subjugate the planet from orbit with ships, but not the individual people. This is something found in alot of sci-fi settings.

 

[Praetor]

I actually even came up with a fairly decent explanation for the TNG attitude. Basically it's been a while since they had a conflict with anyone, so Starfleet has started to get lax again. It happens all the time in the military that when there isn't something pressing going on, standards tend to go down. If you look back at the 19th and 20th century, pretty much the start of every war or conflict we got into started out with the US trying to quickly get its military back into fighting shape. So basically Starfleet went lax, crewmembers complained about long tours of duty away from their family so families were allowed on board ship, and with no real need for defense, RoEs changed, and the exploratory and scientific aspects of the organization were allowed to come forward and get more focus. If you think about it, Starfleet getting its ass handed to it at the beginning of the Dominion War fits perfectly with the US model I mentioned above, because that's exactly what happened in the beginning of WWII.

Exactly the kind of thing I imagined! Starfleet is without question a military organization, whether its origins began as a NASA-type outgrowth of United Earth military forces or it WAS the United Earth military. I think by necessity being a space military it became something different than terrestrial militaries, but it clearly took its organizational cues from the Navy since this was part of GR's origina intent. Kirk was always going on about being a soldier rather than a diplomat, and it seemed that the 23rd century Starfleet at least was well-trained for potential hostilities with the Klingons and others, perhaps as a result of the destructive Romulan War? It seemed like the disarmament imposed by the detente with the Klingons as seen in 'The Undiscovered Country' probably began the scenario you discribe.

In the real world, since GR was the force who tried to de-militarize Starfleet with TNG, I think Berman and others simply took advantage of his absence to go back to the military roots laid there, particularly with the war on DS9, however with varying degrees of success since GR, Matt Jefferies, and others who worked on TOS actually had served in the military but we don't know how many of the modern production team did.

 

[Nerroth]

On a side topic, I like the view of the UFP in the pre-TNG era shown in The Buried Age:

Spoiler: TBA

It highlights how different life in the Federation is for those in the core regions, or on the quiet borders - where peace and progress were considered the norm - yet how on the running sore of the Cardassian border, which kept alternating between open war and uneasy peace, a more battle-worn attitude had been garnered by the Starfleet officers and crew posted there... and, of course, by the troubled colonists along what would one day become the Demilitarised Zone.

 

[Captain Intrepid]

Also, when looking back in naval history especially battleships and battlecruisers were sometimes not only intimidation but extremely beautiful as well.

They have a sort of functional hedgehodgesque look to them, but for real beauty, look back to the frigates and sloops and xebecs and snows and brigs and schooners of the golden age of sail.

 

[Captain X]

I don't know, I rather like the look of the Iowas, personally.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

On a side topic, I like the view of the UFP in the pre-TNG era shown in The Buried Age:

Spoiler: TBA

It highlights how different life in the Federation is for those in the core regions, or on the quiet borders - where peace and progress were considered the norm - yet how on the running sore of the Cardassian border, which kept alternating between open war and uneasy peace, a more battle-worn attitude had been garnered by the Starfleet officers and crew posted there... and, of course, by the troubled colonists along what would one day become the Demilitarised Zone.

That could actually work for the TNG+ era as well. The Enterprise-D did seem to be in established space, so that would work w/ that explanation.

 

[Timo]

I would argue the exact opposite; that Starfleet is primarily a scientific, diplomatic and exploratory institution with an additional military mandate. A supposition that seams to have been borne out on ENT, for whatever that's worth.

It seems to me that ENT established Starfleet as an originally almost purely military organization, one that had plenty of heavily armed starships as of 2151, but only one true exploration vessel and no personnel who would have had a clue about how to do exploration.

Which is sort of understandable if everything within the range of the earlier ships had already been explored by Vulcans, and no human ship could reach unexplored space...

When even that first exploration vessel ended up mainly doing combat missions, it might be that Starfleet didn't get around to playing Cousteau in space until relatively late in the game. Perhaps that sort of stuff was still new in Kirk's days?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[trekkerguy]

Realism. All these ships are big enough and powerful enough to perform
well beyond need for exploration, but also have to be designed to perform
in times of combat or defense. It only makes sense.

I think it was John Eaves who pointed out the weakness of the TWoK
Enterprise's design. If the shot had punched a bit further or if it had been
hit again, the saucer/"neck" could have been taken clean off the ship.

These ARE military ships and should be able to function well as such
thus the design cues. They serve an exploratory function first and foremost
but end up shaped for optimum weapon arcs, shielding coverage and hull
strength. It all works out, makes sense, and is mostly for the better.

Sensor packages can be placed almost anywhere.

 

[Nerroth]

They have a sort of functional hedgehodgesque look to them, but for real beauty, look back to the frigates and sloops and xebecs and snows and brigs and schooners of the golden age of sail.

Nah - give me Admiral Zheng He's Baochuan anytime!

That could actually work for the TNG+ era as well. The Enterprise-D did seem to be in established space, so that would work w/ that explanation.

And it would highlight just how large the UFP had become by then - indeed, that is a point made in TBA, too.

 

[Captain Intrepid]

They have a sort of functional hedgehodgesque look to them, but for real beauty, look back to the frigates and sloops and xebecs and snows and brigs and schooners of the golden age of sail.

Nah - give me Admiral Zheng He's Baochuan anytime!

Eh, I've never really liked the look of junks.

 

[Nerroth]

Ah, but the Baochuan was no ordinary junk...

...and the treasure fleets no ordinary force!