It drives me nuts that Data's "class of '78" line is written off as a continuity error, yet McCoy's age being 137 in 2364 has been written in stone, even though it makes McCoy too young during TOS.
Orions & the Federation
- Thread starter Redshirt214
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If anything, it makes him a bit too old to be best buddies with Jim... That is, unless we go by the backstory that finally gets explicated by JJ Abrams, of McCoy being a graduated MD first and a Starfleet officer only after that fact, thus sharing some Academy history with Jim (even if the good doctor never took the class on Starfleet jargon such as 'dunsel').
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
I admit, I can’t get too worked up about dates. Most people don’t really pay attention to them, and we all know that this is fake. It’s all the nebulous future with its nebulous technological wizardry at reversing polarities and finding cures in a day that should take a decade. I grew up with a much hazier Trek that didn’t show us too much of Earth, of how things work necessarily, and it aided in my suspension of disbelief for this hokey franchise. Look too close and it is very much the Captain Proton it suggests you pardon.
Yeah i don't care about dates either. So Data said that he graduated in 78? Who cares? It was the freaking pilot episode, they probably hadn't made up their mind about the time frame of TNG yet and just needed a number for the script.
First you said you are no fan of the novels, then, in the bolded part, you said you "like either one" of the novels you read. I think you left the word "don't" out of that phrase. If you're an ESL person, no biggie. Even we who were raised speaking English make similar mistakes every day.
Ah I see! Thanks for explaining. Nah, that was just a typo since negation in my first language also requires a "not". I was on my phone and it must have auto-corrected didn't to did.
I thought that "either" might have been the wrong choice. I think "I didn't like any of them" might have been better?
What’s your first language? I forget, have you joined us for the weekly Trek Zoom meeting? We’re a handful of people from four/five different countries. Usually in our underwear...okay, just me, but often!
Auto-correct will get you every time.
He was there in "Catspaw", which takes place more than a hundred stardates before "Space Seed"...
In TFF, Kirk is adamant that one can't reach the Center of the Galaxy. That a madman believes the opposite doesn't mean Kirk would be wrong. He was wrong about the first obstacle on the way there being impenetrable, but that could be the full extent of his errors.
And of course Data graduated from a class of 78, so there were 77 witnesses to him graduating - this is how he shoots down Rikers insulting "Oh, so your rank is purely honorary?" insinuation.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm sure Class of '78 means the same thing to Data and Riker as it does to us. That is, a date marker of some kind.
Not saying he graduated in 2278, but it could be something like Stardate 22378 (~May 18, 2345), or maybe a simpler stardate system in use in the 2340s or by the Academy. Or maybe it was the 78th year following an Academy rededication in 2268 (and thus, Riker and Geordi were Class of 87, Picard was Class of 57, Saavik may have been Class of 18, Wesley would've been Class of 103 or 104). Or the 178th year following the standardization of the Academy year circa 2168 (a few years after the official incorporation in 2161, which itself was a couple decades after they were graduating their first classes of troops although that may have been a different Starfleet Academy).
It wouldn't make sense for even early TNG Data to lie to Riker about such a simple fact checkable thing, especially after Riker admitted to reading all of Data's records (then why are you asking if the rank is honorary, Bill?). But therein lies the rub. "Class of 78" might be a code that shows that Data actually attended the Academy and knows some of the shorthand lingo they use for identifying the graduating Class. Riker knew the official records (that we saw much later) stated Data attended from 2341 to 2345, and when Data confirmed using a non-file placeholder (year?), Riker was convinced of the sincerity of Data's Starfleet record, and went on to question him about his potential superiority complex (which Data confirmed).
That's a new one for me.It drives me nuts that Data's "class of '78" line is written off as a continuity error, yet McCoy's age being 137 in 2364 has been written in stone, even though it makes McCoy too young during TOS.
And for me the answer is simply that the United Earth government sometimes changes sumbols like the Earth flag, the Earth coat of arms, the Earth anthem, etc., fin order to please various voting groups perhaps. And that includes sometimes changing the official Earth calendar, or at least the official Earth calendar era. A clendar era is the moment in time that the years are counted from.
If you go to the Wikipedia article you will see in the upper right corner a box labeled "2021 in various calendars" . You will note that the current year aD 2021 has different year numbers in many different calnedar eras, and they differ by tens, hundreds, and thousands of years.
The UFP government may also soemtimes change the calndar and/or calendar era used.
So when Data said that he graduated by Starfleet Adacemy in the class of '78, he meant that he graduated with a class in ayear number ending in 78. But when he told the revived dead people in "The Neutral Zone" that i was 2364 iin their calnedar, he meant that their calendar was a different one than the one used at that time. Obvsiously when the revived dead people returned to Earth, their fame helped the people who wanted to have their calendar made the new official United Earth Calendar and dates given in later seasons would thus dates arr ccoridng to the calendar era used by the frozen dead.
And to me it seems like the only logical way to reconcile Data's Class of '78 iwith dates givien in later seasons is to deduce that the official united Earth calendar was changed to that of the era of the revived dead persons.
It drives me nuts that Data's "class of '78" line is written off as a continuity error, yet McCoy's age being 137 in 2364 has been written in stone, even though it makes McCoy too young during TOS.
Data said that Mccoy was 137 years (of an unspecified type) old according to official Starfleet records. And maybe Data used some sort of official Starfleet years that might have been slighlty longer than Earth years, making McCoy somewhat older than 137 Earth years and old enough to agree with his age in TOS.
Even if Data used Earth years for McCoy's age, we may wonder how do official Starfleet records record a person's age. Do they just subtract the person's birthdate from the current date? Do they calculate the number of years that the person's body has been alive and biolgically functionings and omit counting the years that they might have been dead or the years they might have skipped over thorugh time travel? Do they calculate how much or how little a person might have aged during suspended animation?'
In a science fiction story a person's age can be much higher or lower than the number of years since they were born.
Are you claiming the opposite of what JohnnyQuest037 said, that if McCoy is only 137 in "Encounter at Farpoint" that will still make him too old to be Captain KIrk's friend?
Is there some sort of legal limit on how different the ages of two friends can be? Do you claim that some psychological process makes it impossible for someone to become friends with someone more than a few years older or younger than themself?
I find it hard to understand what you are claiming, and so I can't decide whether to agree or disagree with it.
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The Borg(e) do...Victor, that is....
I just think the "official United Earth" or "official UFP calendar" that Data was alluding to is just the Stardate calendar. Often changed, never consistent. There might be some intelligence reason why they use indecipherable or perhaps coded dating systems. When they use Gregorian dates, whether officially (in the Enterprise era of the 2150s and the Kelvin era of the 2230s) or unofficially (on wine bottles in the 23rd century, and in vernacular throughout the 2360s and 2370s), it's just a way of simplifying when dealing with people connected to Earth. By the 2250s, when stardates of a non-Gregorian type seem to be used (except in the Kelvin timeline, where something prevented that transition), it seems the UFP may have decided to be more universal in its approach, if a bit schizophrenic.
Timo is simply saying that McCoy, even at only six years older, doesn't seem to be a peer of Kirk's. They were, of course, never intended to be peers (original pitch had "Doctor Boyce" as 51 and "Captain April" as 34, an intended 17-year difference), and it's a military organization that usually combines people of different ages for friendships and camaraderie.
The show, specifically The Ultimate Computer, implied that McCoy may not have attended the Academy and presumably met Kirk in the field on a former posting or just in the time prior to The Corbomite Manuever. I'm of the opinion that Spock, Kirk, and McCoy all met each other after Kirk accepted command of the Enterprise, and TOS is mostly the story of their friendship developing and deepening.
Future shows may disprove my fanon, but it fits for me at the moment.
Yup. McCoy's age shouldn't be a problem either way: he was probably born with those wrinkles, and in any case has undergone so many aging and de-aging ordeals that his body really isn't testament to his age, merely to his crazy profession. No episode or backstory hinges on McCoy's birth year or age difference wrt other characters, and the "EaF" interpretation is among those that fit the few facts just fine. Him being "too young" just raises a few eyebrows. Unless we make specific assumptions about the length of medical studies in the future, say.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
So the fans can speculate but the writers of the official novels, comics and RPGs cannot?
Where was I saying that. Just that the novels and games are their own continuities and that nobody has to accept or like them in relation to the shows. Plus, as far as I can tell they aren't as wide spread in the fandom as the shows are
In my opinion that the expanded universe does NOT have any authority or count as providing any definitive answers as far the TV-universe is concerned.
Outside of the novel forum, in my opinion, nobody has to rollover and just accept what some licenced novel or game says.
So this novel says this...so what?
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I ask myself that question every day.
And yet we show up, every day.
As to topic, I waste little brain space on clear production gaffs. It's a TV show.
Novel speculation is just as valid as non-novel speculation.
"I wonder about this...?"
"The novels/comics/my favorite licensed T-shirt says this..."
"So what?"
It's just kind of rude. No one, least of all Therin of Andor, is saying you have to accept his novel-based views on Thelin's Aenarness. Just that they exist, and are based on fun fanbased theories in the first-place.
"I wonder about this..."
"Perhaps this..."
"Go kick rocks."
...is a similar exchange. So what? So what, indeed.
Sorry you are right, I let out a few of my current frustrations in that post, which was, of course, misplaced in a discussion about fandom. Though I did find his two messages also mildly impolite, I didn't mean I had to respond in kind.
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