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Orion shows how it's done

This thread made me "lol"! " Shows how it's done "? Yep, if that means " at huge expense and on a timeline only the government would call expedient ".

Remind me again when SpaceX got started and how long it took them to fly a robotic (reusable) unmanned capsule? How many times have they flown it already? When will they fly it manned? (Before Orion) How much less has the entire SpaceX budget been than Orion?

LOL, Yep definitely showing " how it's done".
 
Hey, but their testing vehicle exploded when they were pushing it past limits and their first stage landed hard.

Has NASA ever crashed a stage when they were landing it on a floating platform?
 
Remember when Carl Sagan said that--in order to bake a pie, you must first make a universe?

Space X is the pie.

The history of NASA, the Arpanet/Cern internet/AT&T wiring infastructure, ICBM programs--that's the universe Musk had to have us taxpayers and computer buyers support. That's a lot of money that really should be factored into space X costs.

And remember, NASA was footing his bill for awhile too.

The folks behind Orion--a more capable craft than Dragon--deserve a little more respect.
 
Your argument would have merit except for one thing - the Orion program would have to factor in those same sunk costs.

By the way, is Orion still going to be reusable? Yeah, that's what I thought.
 
So Apollo was worthless then because those were one-offs?

I'm excited by Orion and ISS myself:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31740.msg1320164#msg1320164

And you forget, SLS is paying for the static test stand and pad refurbishments Musk isn't paying for.

Par for the course.

Libertarians use the Eisenhower Interstate system--but they don't need gov't.
They get power from TVA, but don't need gov't.
They use the ARPANET, but don't need gov't.
They get weather data from space, but don't need gov't.

The alt.spacers are nothing except nasty little vultures these days.

Again, Jim Hillhouse, a pro-space author of some note, has stated that public and private spacers need to be praising the hell out of each other.
 
So, publiusr, you're saying the Usenet protocol was designed by libertarians for libertarians so that SpaceX can take over the world and take away our space program?
 
My problem are with folks who don't understand infrastructure.

I'm not the only one: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2680/1

Beagle 2 has an interesting story: It started out in the latter 1990s as a “private” spacecraft. British scientist Colin Pillinger raised money to build it...Pillinger frequently badmouthed NASA, saying that NASA’s Mars spacecraft were expensive and bloated and he would show that a Mars lander could be built for relatively little money, privately....But Pillinger ran into fundraising problems and ended up having the British government bail him out. He also may have ended up stiffing his aerospace contractor with an unpaid bill. Eventually the British government grew nervous enough about the mission that it sought help from some Mars experts at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL)—the very people that Pillinger had been ridiculing earlier.


We are seeing it again. As I have said before, SLS is not just the rocket--a good deal of that funding goes into infrastructure--like pad refurbishment that will benefit Falcon heavy as well. Since Musk doesn't have to foot that bill, he can brag about how his craft is cheaper.
 
From you own link "In fact, most of the pad work that was completed for Ares will be utilized by SLS, given both vehicles work with a “clean pad” scenario."

Who built the 39 series pads to begin with, regardless?

My point is that a lot of the anti-NASA smack talk I see spewed across the internet is just as wrongheaded as Colin Pillinger's. People's talk about things being too costly based on hype, a lack of testing, etc.

Orion flew higher than any Dragon, is more capable (twice internal volume), and is made for BEO.

I'm glad there is a competition of sorts. The more the better.
 
J
publiusr said:
From you own link "In fact, most of the pad work that was completed for Ares will be utilized by SLS, given both vehicles work with a “clean pad” scenario."
Click to expand...

What are you talking about???? SpaceX didn't get a " clean pad"! They had to work with the old shuttle infrastructure in place!! Reading comprehension fail.

"Orion flew higher" than Dragon has flown, not "can fly".

more pressurized volume, but less habitable volume.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(spacecraft)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_V2

You should spend more time checking facts and less time ranting about " the haters".
 
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Ugh, and I though gamers were annoying with the PC vs Console, or the console wars in general, and comic fans were annoying with their DC vs Marvel rhetoric.

Seriously who gives a crap about the who or how if it gets us back into space.
 
I'm not the one trying to kill of NASA projects...

sojourner said:
You should spend more time checking facts and less time ranting about " the haters".
Click to expand...

Pot, kettle
sojourner said:
Your argument would have merit except for one thing - the Orion program would have to factor in those same sunk costs.
Click to expand...

Who built those pads to begin with? You never did answer that.


I'm not the only one "ranting" about haters

http://www.americaspace.com/?p=76484

Fortunately, with the changes in Congress, there seems to be strong support for the SLS/ORION program and Europa mission. Perhaps the Administration is hoping against hope that the shrill, NASA-bashing NewSpace social media machine will turn Congress into NewSpace disciples.

Shrill--that's a good name for the Orion bashers

About fact checking
http://www.americaspace.com/?p=76086

"SpaceX has been perennially 2 years late in meeting every commitment it’s made, when it did. That SpaceX is approaching a year since it was supposed to finish its CCiCap milestones, yet 2 1/2 of those remain, is only the latest example. Boeing completed all of its CCiCap milestones six months ago. All the more galling is that NASA didn’t impose the CCiCap milestones and funding. SpaceX, like Boeing and Sierra Nevada, created those milestones and the funding that went with them. Why is SpaceX punctually challenged? I think this largely due to inexperience on SpaceX’s part....The Prox- Ops software for Dragon was originally a large problem for SpaceX. NASA had to supply help (personnel from other contractors)to straighten it all out. "

At any rate, NASA is still in the game
http://www.americaspace.com/?p=75351

38 stories of power
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx1KTmdNW9I
Solids http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/02/advanced-boosters-towards-solid-future-sls/

With it now being Orbital/ATK perhaps some of the newspacers in Orbital will come around.

For those tired of rockets--let me offer you this
http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/mihsc-101.html

E-Cat might even be passing the sniff test of a well known skeptic: http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/02/03/goatguy-on-the-parkhomov-report-next-big-future/ Let's hope.

Misc https://www.flickr.com/photos/mrdanbeaumont/sets/
 
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Who built those pads to begin with? Not the Orion/SLS program. So, as I said, Orion is benefitting from a sunk cost the same as SpaceX.
 
I have a number of concerns about the space program.

I have been reading that the DoD has spent over 1 trillion dollars into the F-35. A plane that if it gets heated fuel doesn't work, so the USAF has painted their tankers white. The budget for the DoD has 14 billion dollars for every year to 2030 for the production of this plane. For humans to go to the Moon, it would have cost at minimum 150 billion dollars, and, for going to Mars, much more than that. If there is a battle for dollars between the DoD and NASA, based on past history, I would place my bets down on the DoD getting the money. (It's possible that in the future we might be at war with Iran.)

I have been reading in Air & Space that the long term effects of space travel are being studied, and it isn't optimistic. Astronauts who have been in space for long periods are experiencing all manners for ailments - some of them aren't discussed openly. For instance, vision. The eyeball changes in zero-gravity, and this can affect vision, making the astronaut short-sighted or long sighted. One astronaut doesn't have middle vision, and another reported not being able to see the dashboard of his car. NASA and Russia are conducting a joint expedition with the crew spending 504 days in space.

Then, there is the mission plan for Orion. Again, I have been reading that after two unmanned flights, there is a manned flight. There are no firm plans on what the manned mission's objective will be.

So, there is the costs, the health of the astronauts, and the mission plan of this program I have concerns with. Although I am happy that private ventures are entering the arena, I don't see them pushing the envelope. They are taking on the work that NASA used to do as part of a larger cost savings plan.
 
If you don't think private ventures are pushing the envelope then you haven't read anything about SpaceX. Reusable rockets, reusable capsules, capsules that soft land using engines instead of chutes, oh, and they want to colonize mars. Just to name a few things.
 
I have read about these ventures. Under the Obama administration, it was decided that some services would be better performed by private business ventures, so NASA contracted work out to these ventures.

The Space Shuttle program had reusable rockets - the sold rocket boosters on either side of the external tank were recovered at sea and reused. So, SpaceX is improving on what has been done before.

According to Air & Space Magazine (March 2015), NASA has identified 32 major risks to human health and performance.

One of these risks is radiation poisoning. When the astronauts were at the moon, they reported light flashes. These light flashes were the result of cosmic ray radiation. Cosmic ray radiation has the potential to be fatal to an astronaut. Health threat from cosmic rays

"Nobody understands the physiological cost of the mission. You have workload creep, inadequate sleep, confinement, and isolation. But you have also nutrition issues, low oxygen, high CO2, bone and muscle atrophy." And then there are the "more occult issues" like fluid shift to the brain. (A&S, March 2015, Pg. 59)

What is SpaceX doing to improve the chances of humans surviving on a mission to Mars? Every two years, there is a window to Mars. The astronauts leave in this window. They spend two years on this world until the next window appears. NASA/Roscosmos are planning a joint mission that will last 504 days at the ISS - this is the longest that any human has lived outside the planet. We haven't had missions longer than this.

To me, the push for Mars is a marketing ploy to get investors and contractors on board. It has that allure that the Moon doesn't. However, after forty years of living on this planet, I don't see us any closer to Mars than the day I was born.

As for the Orion, it will be attached to a Deep Space Habitat. With the DSH, the ship will have the capacity for a 500 day mission. There is no lander in the design. If this goes from concept to construction, the Orion will be installed with this thing and will be sent to Mars for a quick visit. This is Apollo 8, only this time the target is Mars and with one extra crew member. Deep Space Habitat
 
sojourner said:
Who built those pads to begin with? Not the Orion/SLS program. So, as I said, Orion is benefitting from a sunk cost the same as SpaceX.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, I hear NASA are presently refurbishing Mars landing sites they vacated for future SpaceX missions by not performing landings there.
 
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