Original Sins (or, My Grypes with TWOK!!)
- Thread starter BigJake
- Start date
The real problem is that, while it makes sense to confuse the fifth planet for the fourth if the fourth blows up, I still can't figure out how you confuse the fifth for the sixth if the sixth blows up. It's not Starfleet that can't count, apparently, just Reliant.
I've said this before: Nero should have locked a tractor beam on Enterprise, echoing Kruge's ankle grab in TSFS. I'd have had Kirk sigh and quietly say, "I've had enough of you" before ordering the deadly salvo.
Actually, neither of those makes any sense. Finding a planet isn't just about counting outward from the star, it's about knowing its exact orbital elements -- semimajor axis, eccentricity, inclination, longitude of the ascending node, argument of periapsis, and mean anomaly. You need all those things to know how it's moving, how to match trajectories in order to reach it and go into orbit of it, and how to find it again in the future. And even if it were possible for one planet's destruction to perturb another planet onto a different orbit than it had before, there's no way that new orbit would exactly match all six orbital elements of the destroyed planet.
Not to mention that they could see that a planet was missing.
Not to mention that they could see the debris from the destroyed planet.
Not to mention -- most of all -- that there is this little invention called the telescope. Right now, we are able to detect extrasolar planets around star systems hundreds or thousands of light-years from Earth. After all, there are no horizons in space; we have a clear line of sight to galaxies billions of light-years away. You don't actually have to go to another star system before you can see what happens there. And Alpha Ceti (as it's correctly called) is only 250 light-years from Earth. More -- they have faster-than-light sensors. They wouldn't have to wait centuries to see the light from an explosion that happened hundreds of light-years away; they could detect it almost instantly. So Starfleet should've known that Ceti Alpha VI exploded as soon as it did explode. At the very least, even if there weren't any FTL telescopes pointed at the system, then the Reliant should've been able to detect the visible light from the explosion as soon as it came within 15 light-years of the system. Their science officers should've been able to watch the sixth planet explode and shift the orbit of the fifth, long before they even reached the system.
I talked before about how Earthbound assumptions and 2-dimensional thinking keep screenwriters from understanding how things work in space, but this is one of the worst examples. We're used to living in an environment where anything beyond a certain distance is invisible unless we travel there, and so we impose that dynamic on fiction about space travelers. But that's ignoring what any astronomer or amateur stargazer knows, which is that we can see clear to other galaxies with the naked eye. With powerful enough telescopes, we could make detailed maps of the surfaces of extrasolar planets without even needing to leave the Sol System. Starfleet should already know "what's out there" before they go to see. So being taken by surprise by the configuration of planets in a system should be impossible.
Even so, as established in Star Trek, long range scanners would pick up five planets, a debris field, and whatever lay beyond the now non-existent Ceti Alpha VI. If four had blown up, they's pick up three planets, a debris field, and Ceti Alpha IV nee V. So I stand by my criticism, whether it fits the current science of planet hunting or not.
Sure, it's ludicrous either way--a human-alien hybrid is ludicrous--but at least it makes intuitive sense. Star Trek was never hard SF but some things stand out even then.
Having said that, Christopher, your analysis is fascinating and enlightening.
Sure, it's ludicrous either way--a human-alien hybrid is ludicrous--but at least it makes intuitive sense. Star Trek was never hard SF but some things stand out even then.
Having said that, Christopher, your analysis is fascinating and enlightening.
I... *torpedo salvo* HAVE HAD... *torpedo salvo* ENOUGH... *torpedo salvo* OF YOU!!! *all weapons fire*
It's funnier if you imagine Kirk kicking Nero's viewscreen image in the face to punctuate the weapons fire.
But like I said, the sensors wouldn't just count the planets, but would show their orbits, their sizes, their compositions, and the like. So they could tell that the planet they were approaching did not match the parameters they had on file for the planet they were looking for. It's just impossible to mistake one planet in a system for a different one. That's like flying to Europe and mistaking Paris for Berlin. Even if something had destroyed Berlin, you'd still never mistake Paris for it, because it's in a different place and has a different size and appearance. From the right vantage, you could see where both cities were supposed to be and you'd instantly know that Berlin was missing, not that Paris was in its place.
Thanks!
Another good thread BigJake!
I think a much worse problem/better question is, why did anywhere from 40 to 70 humans show up as a slight fluctuation in one dynascanner? What? These guys can scan a planet and count the population from orbit. Their sensors can "detect the heat of a match" and they don't notice 50 people, forget about the damn Ceti Eels which would have been enough to call the whole thing off anyway as per Dr. Marcuses. That's the plot hole. Being 6 or 5 or whatever was a red herring to try to justify the fact that they beamed down to Khan's parlor without knowing he's there.
Still an awsome movie though.
Happy Happy Joy Joy!
Re: Big Jake vs. Franklin about Khan
Well if Bill J, self appointed Knight of the Abrams Table (I'm joking, don't take it the wrong way, Bill J and I agree on so much it's a good thing we disagree about Abrams, being in 100% agreement would be scary) can menton Khan novels, then I'm mentioning stuff that wasn't in the movie too.
Namely, a lot of those white supermen were not the supermen that Kirk left behind but Khan's kids with Marla, including his son Joachim. And being that's his son is the only way he gets away with arguing with him and his son has been keeping Khan from being completely 100% around the bend to crazytown. Khan is satisfied that Kirk is trapped in the middle of what is esentially a rock in space, a rock that becomes most of the Genesis planet's mass btw, and now has the means to return to Ceti Alpha 5 and make it nice again. That's why he changes from the mode from just killin'. (If Ahab could have put Moby Dick in a skirt with a ukelele and sentenced him to preform in Reno for the rest of his life he'd have let it go, too.) After all, killing does not = revenge and Khan says something along the lines of "I've done something much worse that kill you, I've hurt you, and I'm going to keep on hurting you." He can't keep toying with a dead Kirk.
He believed he had Kirk, he beat him, all Kirk can do is yell about it and he's about to finish of his only rescue because it can barely move, plus his son of his beloved wife is saying "Dad were good let's go." Khan has no intention of needlessly murdering anyone in either appearance. Now if he feels it necessary, yes he'll kill anyone, he did try to blow up the Enterprise, but needlessly, no that's not him, even crazy old Khan that's messed up because his Miltonesque paradise was turned into a hell with the death of his good friend Joachim and his trusted people and his wife that he loved.
Ugh. That was a lot. Complaints can be addressed to me as always. Thank you.
I think a much worse problem/better question is, why did anywhere from 40 to 70 humans show up as a slight fluctuation in one dynascanner? What? These guys can scan a planet and count the population from orbit. Their sensors can "detect the heat of a match" and they don't notice 50 people, forget about the damn Ceti Eels which would have been enough to call the whole thing off anyway as per Dr. Marcuses. That's the plot hole. Being 6 or 5 or whatever was a red herring to try to justify the fact that they beamed down to Khan's parlor without knowing he's there.
Still an awsome movie though.
I like this thread.And I'm definitely adding the phrase 'Stinky Weezleteats' to my personal lexicon.
Happy Happy Joy Joy!
Re: Big Jake vs. Franklin about Khan
Well if Bill J, self appointed Knight of the Abrams Table (I'm joking, don't take it the wrong way, Bill J and I agree on so much it's a good thing we disagree about Abrams, being in 100% agreement would be scary) can menton Khan novels, then I'm mentioning stuff that wasn't in the movie too.
Namely, a lot of those white supermen were not the supermen that Kirk left behind but Khan's kids with Marla, including his son Joachim. And being that's his son is the only way he gets away with arguing with him and his son has been keeping Khan from being completely 100% around the bend to crazytown. Khan is satisfied that Kirk is trapped in the middle of what is esentially a rock in space, a rock that becomes most of the Genesis planet's mass btw, and now has the means to return to Ceti Alpha 5 and make it nice again. That's why he changes from the mode from just killin'. (If Ahab could have put Moby Dick in a skirt with a ukelele and sentenced him to preform in Reno for the rest of his life he'd have let it go, too.) After all, killing does not = revenge and Khan says something along the lines of "I've done something much worse that kill you, I've hurt you, and I'm going to keep on hurting you." He can't keep toying with a dead Kirk.
He believed he had Kirk, he beat him, all Kirk can do is yell about it and he's about to finish of his only rescue because it can barely move, plus his son of his beloved wife is saying "Dad were good let's go." Khan has no intention of needlessly murdering anyone in either appearance. Now if he feels it necessary, yes he'll kill anyone, he did try to blow up the Enterprise, but needlessly, no that's not him, even crazy old Khan that's messed up because his Miltonesque paradise was turned into a hell with the death of his good friend Joachim and his trusted people and his wife that he loved.
Ugh. That was a lot. Complaints can be addressed to me as always. Thank you.
I always figured it was due to interference from the extreme conditions on the surface. The sheer mass of sand in that intense sandstorm would've physically blocked thermal, optical, and any other ordinary type of sensor from registering the living things beyond it, and the storm would generate a lot of electrostatic discharges that could interfere with fancier detection methods. Not to mention that most of the Augments were presumably inside those metal cargo containers, which could've blocked life readings. Although, granted, there seemed to be at least 14 of them outside when Chekov and Terrell tried to leave. But where did they come from? Maybe they were returning from some underground caverns or something.
Another good thread BigJake!
I think a much worse problem/better question is, why did anywhere from 40 to 70 humans show up as a slight fluctuation in one dynascanner? What? These guys can scan a planet and count the population from orbit. Their sensors can "detect the heat of a match" and they don't notice 50 people, forget about the damn Ceti Eels which would have been enough to call the whole thing off anyway as per Dr. Marcuses. That's the plot hole. Being 6 or 5 or whatever was a red herring to try to justify the fact that they beamed down to Khan's parlor without knowing he's there.
Still an awsome movie though.
I like this thread.
Happy Happy Joy Joy!
Re: Big Jake vs. Franklin about Khan
Well if Bill J, self appointed Knight of the Abrams Table (I'm joking, don't take it the wrong way, Bill J and I agree on so much it's a good thing we disagree about Abrams, being in 100% agreement would be scary) can menton Khan novels, then I'm mentioning stuff that wasn't in the movie too.
Namely, a lot of those white supermen were not the supermen that Kirk left behind but Khan's kids with Marla, including his son Joachim. And being that's his son is the only way he gets away with arguing with him and his son has been keeping Khan from being completely 100% around the bend to crazytown. Khan is satisfied that Kirk is trapped in the middle of what is esentially a rock in space, a rock that becomes most of the Genesis planet's mass btw, and now has the means to return to Ceti Alpha 5 and make it nice again. That's why he changes from the mode from just killin'. (If Ahab could have put Moby Dick in a skirt with a ukelele and sentenced him to preform in Reno for the rest of his life he'd have let it go, too.) After all, killing does not = revenge and Khan says something along the lines of "I've done something much worse that kill you, I've hurt you, and I'm going to keep on hurting you." He can't keep toying with a dead Kirk.
He believed he had Kirk, he beat him, all Kirk can do is yell about it and he's about to finish of his only rescue because it can barely move, plus his son of his beloved wife is saying "Dad were good let's go." Khan has no intention of needlessly murdering anyone in either appearance. Now if he feels it necessary, yes he'll kill anyone, he did try to blow up the Enterprise, but needlessly, no that's not him, even crazy old Khan that's messed up because his Miltonesque paradise was turned into a hell with the death of his good friend Joachim and his trusted people and his wife that he loved.
Ugh. That was a lot. Complaints can be addressed to me as always. Thank you.
The only problem I have with Joachim being Khan's son is he's 14 years old or so. OK, he's fifty percent genetically enhanced, but does that mean he ages fast at youth? A convenient explanation if true.
I also have a problem with the idea that he'd simply take the Genesis device back to Ceti Alpha VI and use it to reform the planet. Very hard to believe. The man is a conqueror, he's free. He's not going back into exile to settle down, again. Genesis is a weapon for him, leverage for negotiations, not a tool for creation.
As I've probably stated many other places too, my biggest problem with him stranding Kirk is how suddenly his attitude changes from bloodlust to "what the hell."
I don't think anyone "needlessly murders." There is always a need in the mind of the killer. Khan had no problem leaving a trail of blood behind him. He murdered the scientists for no purpose other than rage because they wouldn't give him what he wanted. He just didn't storm off in a huff. That's pretty messed up. And, it was needless. They were no danger to him.
Well, for reasons that have always eluded me, the Okuda's Star Trek Chronology put TWOK 18 years after "Space Seed" instead of 15, even though they treated every other onscreen date reference as exact. (The best explanation I can think of is that they wanted to make sure ST V was at least 20 years after "Balance of Terror" to avoid a continuity conflict with Romulan-Federation contact -- though why they didn't just round the 20-year figure down a few years is beyond me.) Judson Scott was 30 when he played Joachim, but it's easier to buy him as 17 (with a bit of accelerated growth) than 14.
Oh, yes, undoubtedly. Ceti Alpha V (you meant V, I think) is his wife's tomb. It's also a reminder of his greatest defeat and humiliation. He doesn't want to go back and make it nice again, he wants to make the rest of the galaxy suffer like it forced him and his loved ones to suffer.
There was a possible tactical reasoning, in that they might have warned Starfleet what he was up to. But yes 'tortured to death' suggests it was really because Khan was showing his typical emotional restraint. Maybe he got blank looks when he introduced himself.
And Marla giving birth to a majority of those kids? I know they were stuck for nearly a decade with little else to do, but damn. I hope Khan really was 'better at everything' just to make the whole thing worth it.
^Huh? There was a significant number of women in the original group.
♫
We're knights of the Abrahms table
We Trek when ere we're able
We like gelled hair, and the odd lens flare
And a film that's access-able
♫
As I'm sure you're aware, there was a character in "Space Seed" named Joaquin. I always assumed Joaquim was supposed to be the same person, only the writers made a typo, or Montalban kept mispronouncing it.
^I think Joachim was supposed to be Joaquin, but they cast a younger, fairer, less burly actor in the role. Interpreting Joachim as Khan's son was the way Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels reconciled that discrepancy.
Thanks mate.
It's a good point. Perhaps more of a Trek Original Sin than a TWOK Original Sin inasmuch as the sensors always seemed to work to whatever extent dramatic convenience required. I always got the sense that atmospheric interference from the storms on the surface was supposed to explain it, but that's certainly a hand-wave.
See how I love to clean filthy cat boxes!
