Organization of Federation Government

[C.E. Evans]

I certainly don't think the individual states have their own militaries. It seems Starfleet represents the Federation Council's interests, and consequently all of the various states. During the Dominion War, we saw nothing but Starfleet vessels in service. There were no uniquely "Bolian" or "Vulcan" vessels, for example.

To be fair, we really didn't see Bolarus IX or Vulcan during the Dominion War, so the possibility still exists that Federation worlds still had their own forces in addition to Starfleet, although the analogy would probably be akin to having local police forces within the Federation.

An actual case that this is so would be Vulcan--even in the 24th-Century, it still maintained its own security and intelligence agency, the V'Shar, that dealt exclusively with Vulcan matters and was presided by a minister of security. In TNG's "Unification, part II," Worf actually mentioned Vulcan defense ships moving to intercept a revealed Romulan invasion force.

 

[Timo]

...Although its the "Vulcan Ambassador or Vulcan Ambassador?" question again. Are these defense ships Vulcan, or are they ships defending Vulcan?

Even in the former formulation, a ship being "Vulcan" does not need to mean anything beyond it being a Starfleet vessel dedicated to the mission of defending Vulcan and therefore deployed there more or less permanently.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

Nah, this is a pretty clear cut issue.

 

[jmampilly]

I certainly don't think the individual states have their own militaries. It seems Starfleet represents the Federation Council's interests, and consequently all of the various states. During the Dominion War, we saw nothing but Starfleet vessels in service. There were no uniquely "Bolian" or "Vulcan" vessels, for example.

To be fair, we really didn't see Bolarus IX or Vulcan during the Dominion War, so the possibility still exists that Federation worlds still had their own forces in addition to Starfleet, although the analogy would probably be akin to having local police forces within the Federation.

An actual case that this is so would be Vulcan--even in the 24th-Century, it still maintained its own security and intelligence agency, the V'Shar, that dealt exclusively with Vulcan matters and was presided by a minister of security. In TNG's "Unification, part II," Worf actually mentioned Vulcan defense ships moving to intercept a revealed Romulan invasion force.

There is no question as to whether the individual member planets had their own local forces of some kind. Police units which had local jurisdiction would be undoubtedly necessary. However, local police forces are not militaries. They lack actual militaries which could project force beyond their local territory. And, while the Unification episode indicated that the Vulcans had defense ships, these would be roughly analogous to state militia forces in the US, meaning they were designed only with protection of their local territories in mind, rather than actual military operation and offensive deployment. Defensive forces don't constitute actual militaries. Real military duties are delegated to Starfleet.

Regarding the Dominion War, while it is true that we never saw much of the various Federation worlds, the member states would certainly have acknowledged the enormity of Dominion threat, and subsequently sent all of the military forces they had available in order to deal with the threat.

The V'Shar are an organization that could be made roughly analogous to state police forces. They have local jurisdiction. Having their own investigative units doesn't necessarily constitute sovereignty. Certainly this isn't the case with American states with the US.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I certainly don't think the individual states have their own militaries. It seems Starfleet represents the Federation Council's interests, and consequently all of the various states. During the Dominion War, we saw nothing but Starfleet vessels in service. There were no uniquely "Bolian" or "Vulcan" vessels, for example.

To be fair, we really didn't see Bolarus IX or Vulcan during the Dominion War, so the possibility still exists that Federation worlds still had their own forces in addition to Starfleet, although the analogy would probably be akin to having local police forces within the Federation.

An actual case that this is so would be Vulcan--even in the 24th-Century, it still maintained its own security and intelligence agency, the V'Shar, that dealt exclusively with Vulcan matters and was presided by a minister of security. In TNG's "Unification, part II," Worf actually mentioned Vulcan defense ships moving to intercept a revealed Romulan invasion force.

There is no question as to whether the individual member planets had their own local forces of some kind. Police units which had local jurisdiction would be undoubtedly necessary. However, local police forces are not militaries. They lack actual militaries which could project force beyond their local territory.

The same thing could easily extend to the militaries/defense forces of Federation member planets. Their jurisdiction and influence is strictly local.

And, while the Unification episode indicated that the Vulcans had defense ships, these would be roughly analogous to state militia forces in the US, meaning they were designed only with protection of their local territories in mind, rather than actual military operation and offensive deployment. Defensive forces don't constitute actual militaries. Real military duties are delegated to Starfleet.

Same response as above.

Regarding the Dominion War, while it is true that we never saw much of the various Federation worlds, the member states would certainly have acknowledged the enormity of Dominion threat, and subsequently sent all of the military forces they had available in order to deal with the threat.

Actually, I think it would be a case that member planets would keep their local forces close to home as a last line of planetary defense should Starfleet fail.

The V'Shar are an organization that could be made roughly analogous to state police forces. They have local jurisdiction. Having their own investigative units doesn't necessarily constitute sovereignty.

That really only works if you disagree with the idea of a Federation as being more of an alliance. Otherwise, if we go with the long ago remark made by Kirk of member planets actually keeping their sovereignties as well as the existence of separate planetary agencies, then it does seem like the Federation isn't quite so dominating on individual member worlds.

 

[varek]

I always thought the Federation Council was the same as a General Assembly. The Federation had various committees that oversee specific areas, such as Engineering, Science, Medicine, etc.

But, I think most of the legislative business is conducted in the Council assembly hall.

However, I can't remember if the Hall is in Paris or San Francisco.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ ST IV strongly implied that the Council convened in San Francisco. However, the current novel continuity puts the apparatus of Federation government in the Palais de la Concorde in Paris.

However, those don't have to be at odds - the meeting site could change over time. And/or the San Francisco meeting site could have been temporary, such as if the Paris site was being renovated and thus unusable. (With transporters, you can meet anywhere on Earth you want.)

 

[varek]

^ ST IV strongly implied that the Council convened in San Francisco. However, the current novel continuity puts the apparatus of Federation government in the Palais de la Concorde in Paris.

However, those don't have to be at odds - the meeting site could change over time. And/or the San Francisco meeting site could have been temporary, such as if the Paris site was being renovated and thus unusable. (With transporters, you can meet anywhere on Earth you want.)

You're right on all counts, Mr. Laser Beam!

And, I looked it up in a reference site and found that the Executive includes a Cabinet and Executive Agencies, to help the President preside.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets

 

[C.E. Evans]

^ ST IV strongly implied that the Council convened in San Francisco. However, the current novel continuity puts the apparatus of Federation government in the Palais de la Concorde in Paris.

I think that's due to Star Trek VI (and later DS9) establishing Paris as being where the office of the Federation President is located.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It is clear that individual states don't have their own militaries and they act as one legislative body, and thus can make decisions like ceding territory to Cardassia without permission of the people living there.

But, it's also strongly suggested that the central Federation government can't interfere in the internal policies of its constituent planets, beyond ensuring certain basic rights are not rescinded from anyone. This is also a necessity for merging the governments of hundreds of different planets, as it's a hedge against majoritarian tyranny. (The entire galaxy can't vote to change a specific law on Vulcan, though perhaps a judge could overturn it).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Vulcan has an embassy on Earth and the Federation has embassies on its member worlds, suggesting a diplomatic relationship not too unlike that between United Nations members.

I'm referring to what we saw in Sarek's only appearance in TOS. In that there is nothing that established him a Vulcan's Ambassador, just as a Vulcan Ambassador. Sarek being the Ambassador to Earth was added later.

Eh, it's just a case of learning more about the situation as things progressed.

But does that establish Sarek as the Vulcan Ambassador to Earth? Most (if not all) of his accomplishments are negotiating for the Federation with new worlds. The only time he is on Earth is to defend Kirk and Co. He's only referred to as "The Vulcan Ambassador" once (TUC). Though the question remains, the Vulcan Ambassador to what? TUC treats the Vulcans in a odd manner. as if they aren't part of the Federation. They have yellow sashes while the other UFP diplomats have blue ones.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'm referring to what we saw in Sarek's only appearance in TOS. In that there is nothing that established him a Vulcan's Ambassador, just as a Vulcan Ambassador. Sarek being the Ambassador to Earth was added later.

Eh, it's just a case of learning more about the situation as things progressed.

But does that establish Sarek as the Vulcan Ambassador to Earth?

Star Trek XI definitely did; he referred to himself as "the Ambassador to Earth" in his talk to young Spock.

But even before that (or after that?) a case could easily be made that Sarek was Vulcan's representative to the Federation (or Earth), but his duties went beyond that to include being a mediator between the Federation and other nations.

TUC treats the Vulcans in a odd manner. as if they aren't part of the Federation. They have yellow sashes while the other UFP diplomats have blue ones.

I think diplomats from Earth wore green ones. Some members of Starfleet and various different aliens (non-Vulcan or Klingon) wore blue ones.

 

[T'Girl]

however, the idea of the Federation being more of a coalition than a federation seems illogical to me.

The term "Federation" has more than a few different meanings.

Synonyms include alliance and assembly.

Memory Alpha states "... Federation law did grant the government emergency authority to override local governance and declare martial law on a member's territory. (TNG: "Force of Nature"; DS9: "Homefront")"

The Cloud Minders made it clear that local rule overrode Federation decisions.

Additionally, it says "The Federation Council was the unicameral legislative body of the Federation. (TOS: "Amok Time")

Where in Amok Time is there any mention of a "unicameral legislative body?"

It's important to remember that Memory Alpha is basically just a fan site, it's members write the articles and often express their personal theories and viewpoint in those articles.

If member worlds give up their military forces when joining the Federation ...

In DS9 Betazed had it's own military, which was described as second rate. In TOS the Enterprise was repeatedly referred to as a Earth ship.

To be fair, we really didn't see Bolarus IX or Vulcan during the Dominion War, so the possibility still exists that Federation worlds still had their own forces in addition to Starfleet

Or the ships in Starfleet are from the various Member fleets and are deployed in Starfleet operations. Similar to how UN naval fleets are composed of UN Member's ships and they refer to themselves as "UN warships" but their home countries never relinquish "ownership."

During the Dominion War, we saw nothing but Starfleet vessels in service. There were no uniquely "Bolian" or "Vulcan" vessels, for example.

But consider, Starfleet was often spoken of as being somewhat undersized (only ship in the ...), then after the beginning of the Dominion War we start to see and hear of massive fleets. I believe these were the Member's home fleets, being deployed in large numbers to fight the Dominion.

An attack on one, is an attack on all.

 

[varek]

T'Girl, you make some good points in comparing the Federation fleets to the UN fleets, which would be supplemented by member nations' ships.

 

[lostshaker]

There should be no doubt that the Federation permits secession as a consequence of the Prime Directive, which can otherwise be stated as the non-aggression principle (NAP). Furthermore, free association is an unalienable right that infers the ability to dissociate oneself of an undesired relationship. Anything less than free association is a form of slavery and violates the NAP.

Star Trek has demonstrated secession, although sadly not referred to as such, on both the individual and communal level. For example: Marla McGivers seceded from the Federation to join Khan; the Hansens informally seceded to search for the Borg; and the Indian Tribe on Dorvan V seceded from the Federation after bureaucrats arbitrarily negotiated a deal with the Cardassians.

On the whole, the Federation does appear to consistently apply its principles to individuals and communities. This is in contrast to the U.S. Federal Government which (at least for now) recognizes individual secession via expatriation, but fails to extend such acknowledgement to that of any State.

 

[lostshaker]

Another point that indicates planetary sovereignty over the Federation's centralized government is the nebulous nature of the Federation's and Earth's economic systems. The Federation uses a credit-based system while Earth has been reported to have abandoned money. Tom Paris noted the time frame for Earth's economic transformation as taking place in the late 21st century and therefore after the Founding of the Federation, which again suggests that the Federation Government takes a back seat to local sovereignty.

 

[T'Girl]

There should be no doubt that the Federation permits secession

It would be hard to imagine the Federation having a policy of "the door slams behind you."

Marla McGivers seceded from the Federation to join Khan

That really isn't "secession." She didn't even (on screen) officially renounce her citizenship - to Earth or the Federation. Nor did she resign her officer's commission.

the Indian Tribe on Dorvan V seceded from the Federation after bureaucrats arbitrarily negotiated a deal with the Cardassians.

That would be more of a case of them emigrating to Cardassia. I don't think that planet was ever a part of the Federation.

This is in contrast to the U.S. Federal Government which (at least for now) recognizes individual secession via expatriation, but fails to extend such acknowledgement to that of any State.

As I understand it, the Constitution provides for secession if 50% of the states agree, whether by the state legislatures or by congress isn't clear.

Another point that indicates planetary sovereignty over the Federation's centralized government is the nebulous nature of the Federation's and Earth's economic systems.

One of the things I believe about the Federation, is that it has a vast number of different types of economic systems, government types, cultures and societies, what I can't believe is that the Federation has just one type of anything from one end to the other.

The Federation uses a credit-based system while Earth has been reported to have abandoned money.

And the Bolian homeworld has a major interstellar bank. In at least one TOS episode, the Enterprise is carrying freight.

Freight: "goods, cargo, or lading transported for pay."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It is clear that individual states don't have their own militaries

FWIW, in the DS9 Homefront/Paradise Lost story, there was going to be a scene where Jaresh-Inyo "federalizes" local United Earth forces to deal with the crisis. But it was cut for time.

also strongly suggested that the central Federation government can't interfere in the internal policies of its constituent planets, beyond ensuring certain basic rights are not rescinded from anyone. This is also a necessity for merging the governments of hundreds of different planets, as it's a hedge against majoritarian tyranny. (The entire galaxy can't vote to change a specific law on Vulcan, though perhaps a judge could overturn it).

IIRC, Federation member worlds are pretty much left to run their own local affairs as they see fit. The Federation basically only has two overarching laws that all worlds must comply with: 1) No caste-based discrimination, and 2) One world government. Apart from that, it's wide open, really.

 

[MacLeod]

And differences between how TOS and say TNG/DSN potray hpow the Federation works are easily explained as during that intervening period laws have evolved/changed.

 

[Nightdiamond]

the Indian Tribe on Dorvan V seceded from the Federation after bureaucrats arbitrarily negotiated a deal with the Cardassians.

That would be more of a case of them emigrating to Cardassia.
I don't think that planet was ever a part of the Federation.

That would be more of a case of them emigrating to Cardassia. I don't think that planet was ever a part of the Federation.

I think the indian colonists agreed to give up their Fed citizenship and technically became 'land squatters'.


The Federation's attitude towards the DMZ colonists and Maquis and their status was pretty hazy and unclear at times .

On one hand, the Fed seemed to acknowledge their autonomy and leave them alone, on the other they're actively involved in their affairs, investigating and hunting them down.

In DS9, they were still referred to by Starfleet as 'our colonists' that needed to be protected. Later, Eddington said they were going to declare themselves an independent nation--

Eddington even claimed that Sisko and Starfleet were sore because the Maquis left the Federation.