I gotta give props to The Red King for featuring the Neyel. 
Opinions on Titan series?
- Thread starter CaptJimboJones
- Start date
Oh, you misunderstand. That's not at all what I meant, let me clarify. I by no means think or even want a primary focus on humans or even humanoids. What I mean is that it feels as though the fact that they are all different is actually brought up among the crew itself a bit too much. For us in the "real world" in 2007 all this diversity is a huge deal, but in the Trek-verse it strikes me as not as big a deal due to the so-called enlightenment of the various cultures. The crew itself seems to point it out more often than it feels that they should. Sure, granted it has been stated over and over and over again (too much IMO again) that the Titan is itself unique even within Starfleet so sure there is bound to be some mention of it, but it seems to run counter to the goal of interracial cooperation to constantly point out the differences and the fact that they are so special.
To liken it to something in real world today's times, as a gay man I do understand some heterosexuals complaint that some gay people do indeed force their homosexuality down their throat. It's like "Ok, you're gay, I get it, want a cookie?" The subject may come up every now and then but it doesn't need to be the center of attention all the time. This is how I feel about Titan. It's not so much a problem that they are diverse, this is a very good thing. The problem is that that diversity is actually an issue when it's purporting not to be.
Now, I will grant you it's possible that you all have some grand plan that I'm not in on to show that the Federation et al isn't as accepting as the TV shows have appeared. And there have been issues with various people on the crew that seem to lack that cultural sensitivity, but even they have a sort of self-reflecting that is like a "shame on me for feeling that way." It all seems so grandiose for no readily apparent reason. Sure it's possible this will all come to light later and I'll look back and say "wow, that was actually done for a reason and is really good now". But without that knowledge at the moment it just comes across as overbearing and excessive.
I look at the Titan, both in terms of the ship design and crew roster, as an explicit, ongoing social experiment. This level of variety has never been successfully accomodated on a starship before, and as participants in the experiment, the crew itself is very much interested in how it is unfolding. Look at the Titan as an anthropological laboratory in which participant observation is the norm, sort of like the way enclosed habitat studies examined not only the sustainability of the artificial environment, but the psychological effects on, and group dynamics of, the people within. Diversity is an issue, but the debates on the topic are friendly ones between colleagues, motivated by genuine curiosity and scientific interest, rather than the acrimonious, xenophobic rabble-rousing we often get when us 21st century bumpkins try to talk about such things.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
But isn't that part of the point? of Star Trek, I mean. It has never functioned as its own thing, not paying attention to the society around it. Quite the contrary.
In TOS much was made of Spock's "half breed" status as well as his alien-ness. McCoy beat that drum as if he was auditioning for Earth, Wind and Fire. If Spock was black or gay, half of McCoy's dialogue would have been peppered with "niggers" and "fags." Think about it.
But he wasn't either of those (apologies to slash fictioners). He was half-vulcan/half human. In that light McCoy's racist remarks became quaint, even amusing. What human wouldn't have some distrust for an actual ALIEN, for god's sake?
He allowed for the audience to step back, say, half a pace from an issue that had fractured the society of the day almost to breaking. He allowed people to softly confront some aspect of their own bigotry that was, perhaps, unknown even to themselves.
Are those issues dead in modern times? Not from where I sit.
I mean we live in a fairly diverse society and nobody wants to be called a racist or a homophobe. Nobody wants to think they harbor those sorts of notions and, for the most part, I don't think most do. Not really.
But somethings persist and cause trouble.
TITAN is a crucible in many ways. The idea is that, yes, we believe ourselves to be open minded and accepting but, in reality, what is the actual make-up of our social structure? Do we actually walk the walk?
It's one thing to be pro-diversity in theory or as a concept. It's another to have one of THEM sleeping with your son or, god forbid, your son turning out to be one of THEM. It makes some people uncomfortable to even think about thinking about this stuff.
In RL we have social rules, shadows in which to hide. Politeness covers a lot of challenging notions without doing a thing to correct them. TITAN does away with that. There can be no such frictions allowed among this crew or the ship will become a liability to itself and its mission. It is not a subtle metaphor. And Will Riker is the perfect character to lead this experiment. His established history is one of running toward the other.
The Cardassians tried not only to subjugate an entire culture, a la Hitler or Stalin, but they tried to wipe out the Federation, also a la Hitler.
So to have one on board brings up issues. To show a Bajoran, formerly oppressed by Cardassia, to have gotten past his past enough to actually BEFRIEND a former enemy? I say that's an example of Star Trek at its best. But you also have to show people NOT being as easy with it or there's no weight to the acceptance.
I think there's a difference between promoting a "gay agenda" or a "black agenda" and promoting real tolerance of diversity. The former can easily bog down under the weight of weird political concerns. The later is just, y'know, accepting how life actually is.
Hell, I'm personally not willing to settle for tolerance. Embrace or begone, I say. But that's me and I have issues.
On TITAN we have a myraid of permutations of the themes of race, gender, ethnicity, faith, nationality in pretty much constant flux. That's drama. Even if the ship is attacked by a giant flying spaghetti monster the real show is watching these folks pull together despite so many differences to fight it.
I think, as long as we manage to tell good TITAN stories first and foremost, the pro-diversity agenda will function on a more stealthy level. Who's to say Riker's experiment will work?
I spent some time on the sexual interactions of the crew. Not in a graphic or salacious way but that flirtatious, bantery mode that most adults enjoy to some degree. I did that because that is often one of the bridges to acceptance of the Other. Difficult to be too bigoted when you want to get in someone's pants. (although some do manage)
I also tried to get into the head of characters like Dakal, a "legitimate" outsider due to recent events of the Dominion War. How does he function? How do the others see him?
Is it reasonable to think that, after so many deaths and suffering that ANY Cardassian could expect widespread acceptance on any Starfleet vessel? I don't think so. What kind of amazing person would Dakal have to be to seek that environment? What kind of person would Jaza have to be to let bygones be bygones? You can't describe the positive without discussing the actual issue. You can't have resolution without confrontation.
Also, at least in my mind, every book in a series is potentially someone's first, regardless of the true chronological order. That means some things have to be made clear each time or TITAN becomes just another ship with just another faceless crew.
But we want to see those faces and we want you to see them too.
(sorry, this was a bit rambly. my brain is a bit fried right now)
In TOS much was made of Spock's "half breed" status as well as his alien-ness. McCoy beat that drum as if he was auditioning for Earth, Wind and Fire. If Spock was black or gay, half of McCoy's dialogue would have been peppered with "niggers" and "fags." Think about it.
But he wasn't either of those (apologies to slash fictioners). He was half-vulcan/half human. In that light McCoy's racist remarks became quaint, even amusing. What human wouldn't have some distrust for an actual ALIEN, for god's sake?
He allowed for the audience to step back, say, half a pace from an issue that had fractured the society of the day almost to breaking. He allowed people to softly confront some aspect of their own bigotry that was, perhaps, unknown even to themselves.
Are those issues dead in modern times? Not from where I sit.
I mean we live in a fairly diverse society and nobody wants to be called a racist or a homophobe. Nobody wants to think they harbor those sorts of notions and, for the most part, I don't think most do. Not really.
But somethings persist and cause trouble.
TITAN is a crucible in many ways. The idea is that, yes, we believe ourselves to be open minded and accepting but, in reality, what is the actual make-up of our social structure? Do we actually walk the walk?
It's one thing to be pro-diversity in theory or as a concept. It's another to have one of THEM sleeping with your son or, god forbid, your son turning out to be one of THEM. It makes some people uncomfortable to even think about thinking about this stuff.
In RL we have social rules, shadows in which to hide. Politeness covers a lot of challenging notions without doing a thing to correct them. TITAN does away with that. There can be no such frictions allowed among this crew or the ship will become a liability to itself and its mission. It is not a subtle metaphor. And Will Riker is the perfect character to lead this experiment. His established history is one of running toward the other.
The Cardassians tried not only to subjugate an entire culture, a la Hitler or Stalin, but they tried to wipe out the Federation, also a la Hitler.
So to have one on board brings up issues. To show a Bajoran, formerly oppressed by Cardassia, to have gotten past his past enough to actually BEFRIEND a former enemy? I say that's an example of Star Trek at its best. But you also have to show people NOT being as easy with it or there's no weight to the acceptance.
I think there's a difference between promoting a "gay agenda" or a "black agenda" and promoting real tolerance of diversity. The former can easily bog down under the weight of weird political concerns. The later is just, y'know, accepting how life actually is.
Hell, I'm personally not willing to settle for tolerance. Embrace or begone, I say. But that's me and I have issues.
On TITAN we have a myraid of permutations of the themes of race, gender, ethnicity, faith, nationality in pretty much constant flux. That's drama. Even if the ship is attacked by a giant flying spaghetti monster the real show is watching these folks pull together despite so many differences to fight it.
I think, as long as we manage to tell good TITAN stories first and foremost, the pro-diversity agenda will function on a more stealthy level. Who's to say Riker's experiment will work?
I spent some time on the sexual interactions of the crew. Not in a graphic or salacious way but that flirtatious, bantery mode that most adults enjoy to some degree. I did that because that is often one of the bridges to acceptance of the Other. Difficult to be too bigoted when you want to get in someone's pants. (although some do manage)
I also tried to get into the head of characters like Dakal, a "legitimate" outsider due to recent events of the Dominion War. How does he function? How do the others see him?
Is it reasonable to think that, after so many deaths and suffering that ANY Cardassian could expect widespread acceptance on any Starfleet vessel? I don't think so. What kind of amazing person would Dakal have to be to seek that environment? What kind of person would Jaza have to be to let bygones be bygones? You can't describe the positive without discussing the actual issue. You can't have resolution without confrontation.
Also, at least in my mind, every book in a series is potentially someone's first, regardless of the true chronological order. That means some things have to be made clear each time or TITAN becomes just another ship with just another faceless crew.
But we want to see those faces and we want you to see them too.
(sorry, this was a bit rambly. my brain is a bit fried right now)
Hey Geoffrey -
Just wanted to let you know that I drove to Barnes & Noble tonight and spent $7.99 full price to buy Sword of Damocles. Didn't wait for a comp, didn't buy at discount.
Looking forward to reading it as soon as I can take a break from my own writing!
Just wanted to let you know that I drove to Barnes & Noble tonight and spent $7.99 full price to buy Sword of Damocles. Didn't wait for a comp, didn't buy at discount.
Looking forward to reading it as soon as I can take a break from my own writing!
I hope you dig it. I really do.
It will mean a lot to me.
It will mean a lot to me.
I have read a bit more than half of "Sword of Damocles" so far. I like it in spite I have only a vague idea what this anomaly is about but I have practice at taking phantastic science, treknobabble and more real life technobabble at face value. To me, this is more background and not that important.
I like Titan so much because I enjoy good, interesting characterizations and also this time I found the diversity, the richness of the variety among the crew very interesting and entertaining.
We will see... I am mystified and even quite annoyed at Riker`s attitude towards Deanna (I am not saying more because this is a spoiler) but maybe I will be more understanding later on. I haven`t finished the book yet.
I will certainly say more when I am finished. But so far, so good...
I like Titan so much because I enjoy good, interesting characterizations and also this time I found the diversity, the richness of the variety among the crew very interesting and entertaining.
We will see... I am mystified and even quite annoyed at Riker`s attitude towards Deanna (I am not saying more because this is a spoiler) but maybe I will be more understanding later on. I haven`t finished the book yet.
I will certainly say more when I am finished. But so far, so good...
That may have been the case in practice, and like I said was made explicit at times, but she was only ever referred to as Counselor (heck, she rarely even got her commissioned rank referenced).
Hence the "probably not." I always forget that you have to make sarcasm more obvious (generally with smilies, IIRC) on this board.
I bought Taking Wing last monday. By last friday, id read all 3 that my local bookstore had in stock. Cant wait for #4 to get in stock.
Actions speak louder than words, and labels don't define truth. Whatever Deanna may have been called, we saw her functioning as a contact/diplomatic advisor far more often than we saw her functioning as a psychiatric counselor. That's why I've established in my TNG fiction that she's trained as a "contact specialist" as well as a counselor -- that these are two different jobs and she was performing both of them.
Thanks Baerbel. If it's still mushy at the end, I will send you a clear explanation.
Wow, what a great array of responses. No wonder this is my favorite TrekBBS forum!
Thanks so much for everyone's thoughts so far. I'm convinced - I'm going to pick up the rest of the series after work and move them to the top of my reading list.
Thanks so much for everyone's thoughts so far. I'm convinced - I'm going to pick up the rest of the series after work and move them to the top of my reading list.
I think every book so far has been better than the previous one and they've all been very good.
Oh, definitely. If you like Riker and Troi and the various other characters, both canon and Litverse, then you'll enjoy the Titan series.
Great stories. You've got a little bit of everything: Diplomatic, Scientific, Tactical...and so on. An excellent mix of plots and details.
I'm about 200 pages into Taking Wing and they're introducing so many crew members and other characters I'm having a hard time remembering who is who.
So far it's a good read, and I really like the political in-fighting between the Romulans. I look forward to reading the rest.
So far it's a good read, and I really like the political in-fighting between the Romulans. I look forward to reading the rest.
I am glad to see you pick it up at full price. I did the same thing. :thumbsup:
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