Opinions On The DY-100/Botany Bay/Woden

[ahkyahnan]

Wanted to poll everyone's opinion on a few things:

1) What do you think those large containers were on the Botany Bay from 'Space Seed'? Geoff Mandel's 'Star Fleet Officer's Manual' suggested they were fuel cells that individually ejected as their supply exhausted. Some other fan DY-100 blueprints have picked up on this theory. However Geoff also indicates the DY-100 carried 70+ crew including colonists. If those containers were fuel cells and not cargo modules, it doesn't appear the remainder of the ship could have enough cargo capacity to bring along everything necessary to setup a colony. Would a fleet of automated cargo ships precede the DY then (as envisioned for most Mars missions for example?) Matt Jefferies' original drawings seemed to suggest these were cargo containers. However, those sketches were labeled 'Antique Space Freighter' and such, so even though the design became the Botany Bay, maybe the function/concept of the vessel changed between the time he drew it as a 'Tramp Freighter' and when it finally appeared in an episode.

2) On that note, what do you think were the main missions of the DY-100 series?

3) Do you think the 'Botany Bay' as seen represented a standard DY-100 configuration, or had it been modified/customized for Khan? Related, do you think Khan was imprisoned on the ship, or that he chose it himself to escape? If an escape, preplanned or just seizing the closest available ship?

4) Finally, the ship shows up again in 'The Ultimate Computer' as the ore freighter Woden. Do you think those containers were still fuel cells, or by this time had they been converted to cargo modules, with a completely different propulsion system (that doesn't require as much fuel) housed within the otherwise identical engine compartment? In general how do you rationalize the Botany Bay model being the Woden so many years later?

AlexR and I have been discussing this recently, and I was curious to hear everyone else's thoughts.

Thanks.

Mark

 

[Neopeius]

I like the idea of being cargo pods.

An interesting tidbit--while we did not have FTL drive in the late 20th century, we did have artificial gravity.

 

[Timo]

I'd like to believe in a flexible multistage vehicle here. The pencil-like core of the vessel could well be based on some futuristic (that is, alt-1980s) propulsion technology that is already almost like impulse drive, and uses some sort of non-Newtonian trickery to create more thrust out of a given mass of propellant. The witnessed artificial gravity would no doubt have such a spinoff in propulsive engineering - or perhaps vice versa. One could then bolt cargo containers around the midbody (eight on DY-100) for a slow interplanetary mission, or install an "upper stage" at the bow for a faster sortie. Ares IV might have been one such upper stage. Or then there could be a "lower stage" for the initial boost from Earth orbit, quite possibly a significantly more massive vehicle than the DY-100 itself is.

I mean, if the wedge things are fuel tanks, even a full set of eight wouldn't be anywhere near enough in terms of realistic rocketry. For interstellar travel of the sort Khan did (dozens and probably hundreds of ly in a couple of centuries), the fuel to payload ratio would have to be more like 1000:1 than 100:1, and would soon approach the limits of diminishing return anyway. I'd much rather go both futuristic and multistage for 1), and say that the containers are for payload.

Flexibility would take care of 2) as well. All interplanetary runs within Sol would be fair game - it would just be that very few planets around Sol would be of any interest for the Trek people of the 21st century, and e.g. Mars would be considered unworthy of colonizing until the 22nd. Earth-Moon runs for the colonies there would probably be more important, as would asteroid belt runs for mining the mineral riches.

For 3), I'd say that Khan and related supermen actually had a major role in providing Earth with these fantastic ships in the 1980s-1990s already. Their superior intellect created the engines, and perhaps also allowed them to monopolize or otherwise exploit the technology as well. Khan would probably have had these things lying around in some numbers in 1996 - so many of them in fact that nobody noticed that one went missing.

As for customizing, I doubt Khan had much time. He doesn't strike me as the sort of type who'd prepare for his downfall in advance! Probably the cryochambers were standard fare, vital for transporting hundreds of workers to asteroid mines or whatnot. Possibly Khan didn't even intend to go interstellar at all, but overshot his target... He seemed to immediately accept that he was rescued by humans, and only wanted to know "How long?!". Perhaps his plan all along had been to drop out of sight for a few centuries and then return to unsuspecting Sol, but something went horribly wrong.

The name Botany Bay was IMHO a self-ironic choice by Khan himself, and the ship had no prisoner transport function nor was originally named after a horribly mismanaged prison colony. Yeah, the idea of Earth deciding to banish prisoners to Titan or something is nice scifi stuff, but it's awfully much trouble; I doubt people of the 1990s would have opted for it if an execution squad was available.

For 4), I'd actually like to believe in the TOS-R version of the events and vehicles, not the original TOS one. That goes for all of TOS-R, really, except perhaps "Friday's Child" where a battle cruiser is a poor substitute for the original scout in the dramatic sense. Nevertheless, I'd think that ship shaped very much like DY-100 would have been used for interstellar colonization at some point, whether at warp or sublight - TNG "Up the Long Ladder" makes that canon, after all. Once completing the mission of delivering a colony, such a ship probably couldn't be trusted with further crewed use, but it might be useful in automatically shipping back whatever goods the colonists managed to extract from their new home, and thus establishing a link with Mother Earth (if the colonists yearned for one). And if the robot managed one such delivery of time-noncritical goods such as ore, it would be good for another, and another, and another, until finally something broke for good. And at that point, the loss wouldn't be great.

So perhaps I'd argue that the Woden was indeed a DY-100 sublight-only interstellar colonization vessel that had done its original duty some centuries ago and was now hauling ore that could afford to spend decades in transit. DY-500 of TNG fame would be only mariginally better and still sublight, and would eventually see similar use.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crewman47]

Weren't they the same cargo containers that we saw in TWOK that Khan and his followers were living in or were they Starfleet shelters from the Enterprise? If they were Starfleet they would no doubt have had Starfleet markings on them to indicate as such which I don't would've been visible on the scenes we saw.

 

[Timo]

The commentary section of ST2 DVDs supposedly tells something about this. TrekCore has screencaps of the commentary, but those don't reveal enough to allow us to ascertain whether Khan's hut was shaped and sized like a Botany Bay container, or (as some production drawings I've glanced at would suggest) was shaped like the Starfleet containers we see in the holds of Kirk's ship in ST:TMP but scaled up a lot. The curvature of the ribbed wall in the interior set might suggest the latter, in fact - thus indicating that Kirk beamed down those containers from his own ship, as they'd be unlikely to be 1990s hardware then.

Khan's hut had some material that clearly came from the Botany Bay, including what looks like a cargo-attaching belt. Doesn't mean the hut came from that ship, though: Khan would have had those items in the hut no matter what its origin.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Jack Riley]

Crewman47 - They had to have been storage containers from the original ship. When Chekov realizes the name of the ship and starts pushing to get Capt. Terrell out, it is because he reads a safety restraint that clearly reads "S.S. Botany Bay," the name of Khan's ship in the TOS episode "Space Seed."

Not arguing with you, just offering an answer to your question, unless it was rhetorical, in which case I am simply offering support for your proposition.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Crewman47 - They had to have been storage containers from the original ship. When Chekov realizes the name of the ship and starts pushing to get Capt. Terrell out, it is because he reads a safety restraint that clearly reads "S.S. Botany Bay," the name of Khan's ship in the TOS episode "Space Seed."

Not arguing with you, just offering an answer to your question, unless it was rhetorical, in which case I am simply offering support for your proposition.

I hadn't thought about that...so I'm going with you on this one.

But more importantly? Was the checkered board on TWOK a standared issue for a DY100 or did Kirk give it to khan as a going away present???

Rob

 

[Timo]

But a strap with a buckle that reads "SS Botany Bay" could easily be moved from the ship (which supposedly cannot land) to the hut (which supposedly was delivered to the surface by other means) simply by removing it from the ship, pocketing it, and later using it for strapping things in the hut. When Khan was moving to his new home, naturally he would have been in need of lots of straps and other packaging material, some of which would come from his ship.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Jack Riley]

Timo - I see your point, but if we are talking about the Enterprise sending down cargo pods or shelters, there would be no need for the Botany Bay's lashings to go along with the pods/shelters. The pods/shelters would, by necessity have them included in order to keep things in place during transit to the surface.

As a result, the buckle would read "USS Enterprise, NCC-1701," "Starfleet Corp of Engineers," "Starfleet Emergency Supply," "Starfleet Quartermaster's Division," etc. There would have been some marking to indicate that it was a Starfleet cargo container. There would be no need to transfer the Botany Bay's lashings to Starfleet containers.

Plus there is another reason to believe these are storage containers from the Botany Bay. If Kirk had used Starfleet equipment, he would have had to explain in manifests why he felt the need to send them down to the surface. Clearly, he did not do this or Stafleet would have checked on Khan's progress, noticed that a planet had exploded, and taken action (albeit cautiously to avoid Khan taking posession of the rescue ship).

RobertScorpio - Important question indeed. I go with Kirk giving up on 2D chess for the more elaborate 3D chess. As such, he had no need to keep all those spare 2D chess/checker boards and gave them as a parting gift to Khan and company.

 

[Timo]

There would be no need to transfer the Botany Bay's lashings to Starfleet containers.

Why not? All of Khan's cargo would be lashed together with those. Khan wouldn't move his Superman Montly collection from a Botany Bay box to an Enterprise one, and he wouldn't bother to unbundle the things he had already bundled with BB belts.

If Kirk had used Starfleet equipment, he would have had to explain in manifests why he felt the need to send them down to the surface.

Or then he could make up any explanation. I mean, if Starfleet buys his stories about space amoebae, juvenile gods, or domed brains that hijack people for entertainment, Starfleet will buy anything!

Kirk burned hardware like crazy, losing shuttlecraft, deploying hundreds of satellites, etc. A few missing items of general cargo would not be noticed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Jack Riley]

Or then he could make up any explanation. I mean, if Starfleet buys his stories about space amoebae, juvenile gods, or domed brains that hijack people for entertainment, Starfleet will buy anything!

I can just imagine some bean counter at Starfleet HQ:

Bean Counter: Let me get this straight. You lost a shuttle in a giant Space Amoeba.
Kirk: Well... yes.
Bean Counter: Right.
Kirk: In my defense, it was a really big Space Amoeba.

I've worked in the government too long.

Kirk burned hardware like crazy, losing shuttlecraft, deploying hundreds of satellites, etc. A few missing items of general cargo would not be noticed.

Timo Saloniemi

True, but he still has to requisition replacement parts and explain what happened to the originals. It may be true that some alien from another galaxy came in and turned the entire crew, save for a few necessary people, into carbon based dodecahedrons (I just know I spelled that wrong), but there is evidence in the form of records to back it all up (see Court Martial for the records relating to Starfleet SOPs).

 

[RobertScorpio]

Or then he could make up any explanation. I mean, if Starfleet buys his stories about space amoebae, juvenile gods, or domed brains that hijack people for entertainment, Starfleet will buy anything!

I can just imagine some bean counter at Starfleet HQ:

Bean Counter: Let me get this straight. You lost a shuttle in a giant Space Amoeba.
Kirk: Well... yes.
Bean Counter: Right.
Kirk: In my defense, it was a really big Space Amoeba.

I've worked in the government too long.

Kirk burned hardware like crazy, losing shuttlecraft, deploying hundreds of satellites, etc. A few missing items of general cargo would not be noticed.

Timo Saloniemi

True, but he still has to requisition replacement parts and explain what happened to the originals. It may be true that some alien from another galaxy came in and turned the entire crew, save for a few necessary people, into carbon based dodecahedrons (I just know I spelled that wrong), but there is evidence in the form of records to back it all up (see Court Martial for the records relating to Starfleet SOPs).

I can only imagine what the supply section for the ENTERPRISE is like. I dealt with supply all my years in the navy; interesting people. Though you didn't want to get on their bad side. Get in with a SUPPLY guy and you get nice flight-deck boots...get in bad with them and your stuck in boon-dockers!!!

Rob

 

[ahkyahnan]

My opinion's still up in the air regarding Khan's shelters in TWOK. Physically they look to me more like the TMP containers, but then that would mean the TOS Enterprise used the same containers way back when in presumably a similar cargo deck. No evidence against it but it feels funny to me for some reason. Another interesting note is that neither Chekov nor Terrell mentioned them being Starfleet containers, or questioned how they got there. They didn't say they weren't either, but they did seem to act like they didn't recognize them.

At any rate, I'm sure Starfleet was aware of Khan's location and the whole incident aboard Enterprise, so Kirk wouldn't need to falsify his container count. I mean Khan took 430 people hostage, and I don't care how loyal your crew is, someone's going to talk. Plus I can't imagine Spock falsifying his own log entries. Kirk might've had to justify his decision to allow Khan to settle the planet rather than bringing him into custody, but I don't think he lied about it if that's the implication. Unless I'm forgetting a piece of dialog.

Anyone else have any opinions on those questions I raised above?

Thanks!

Mark

 

[RobertScorpio]

My opinion's still up in the air regarding Khan's shelters in TWOK. Physically they look to me more like the TMP containers, but then that would mean the TOS Enterprise used the same containers way back when in presumably a similar cargo deck. No evidence against it but it feels funny to me for some reason. Another interesting note is that neither Chekov nor Terrell mentioned them being Starfleet containers, or questioned how they got there. They didn't say they weren't either, but they did seem to act like they didn't recognize them.

At any rate, I'm sure Starfleet was aware of Khan's location and the whole incident aboard Enterprise, so Kirk wouldn't need to falsify his container count. I mean Khan took 430 people hostage, and I don't care how loyal your crew is, someone's going to talk. Plus I can't imagine Spock falsifying his own log entries. Kirk might've had to justify his decision to allow Khan to settle the planet rather than bringing him into custody, but I don't think he lied about it if that's the implication. Unless I'm forgetting a piece of dialog.

Anyone else have any opinions on those questions I raised above?

Thanks!

Mark

I get the vibe that Terrell/Chekov are not too concerned as to what the things are, in fact, Terrell seems to put off a vibe that he had seen something like them before..

Now..why Chekov isn't putting two-and-two together until he sees the belt buckle is a good question.

But when Khan says something to the effect that all that kirk left him were this stuff, I think it implies they are from the 'enterprise' supply section. How kirk justifies this to his superiors is a good question too...

Rob

 

[Praetor]

I have for a while thought that those TMP style cargo containers might have been in use as early as TOS, out of view, so I could easily see the argument over just where the pods in TWOK came from going either way. Surely Kirk would have let Khan and company keep their 'stuff,' seatbelts and all. That medical scanner in the pod also seems to imply Kirk may have given them some equipment of his own if the device is to be taken literally as what it appears to be - ignoring the fact that such devices were not visibly present aboard the Enterprise until TMP.

The fact that Terrell recognizes them doesn't mean that they were from a Starfleet ship either; I'm sure most knowledgeable Starfleet officers could have made an educated guess about a cargo pod and get it right, which doesn't really help with the argument over whether they came from the Botany Bay. As a kid, I often wondered if Kirk didn't purposefully 'crash' the ship on the planet, and what we saw was what was left of it. I don't know how much water that holds now, considering how unlikely it seems that a 300 year old ship would survive re-entry...

FWIW, regarding fuel pods versus cargo pods, there is a Jefferies drawing of the Botany Bay in the TOS sketchbook that calls the pods 'paniers.' (Pannier being a term for a type of basket hung over the side over a vehicle.) A similar drawing in 'The Art of Star Trek' has an added caption that specifically refers to them as interchangeable cargo pods. This and a couple similar drawings refer to the ship as 'obsolete space tramp freighter' and similar. I honestly think Jefferies meant them to be cargo pods, not fuel pods.

 

[Timo]

My opinion's still up in the air regarding Khan's shelters in TWOK. Physically they look to me more like the TMP containers, but then that would mean the TOS Enterprise used the same containers way back when in presumably a similar cargo deck. No evidence against it but it feels funny to me for some reason.

I'd actually find it a bit strange that things like containers or workbees or spacesuits would be brand new in ST:TMP just because the ship they serve happens to be brand new... The container shape might be ages-old in the 2270s, or at least date back to the 2260s.

Another interesting note is that neither Chekov nor Terrell mentioned them being Starfleet containers, or questioned how they got there. They didn't say they weren't either, but they did seem to act like they didn't recognize them.

Then again, they treated their landing party mission rather casually overall, in the best Trek tradition. And they didn't seem to see two meters in front of them...

One might also argue that a "standard container" would be an ubiquitous item, to be found everywhere in the Federation and outside it as well.

At any rate, I'm sure Starfleet was aware of Khan's location and the whole incident aboard Enterprise, so Kirk wouldn't need to falsify his container count. I mean Khan took 430 people hostage, and I don't care how loyal your crew is, someone's going to talk.

But on a matter of this severity, Kirk might lie to his own crew, or at least keep things from them. It's not as if a person serving aboard a starship would be able to tell where the ship is and what she does, beyond "I hear the warp engines now, might be warp sixish" or "Have you heard - they sent out a shuttle just moments ago?".

Plus I can't imagine Spock falsifying his own log entries.

He's lied to his superiors before, beaten Starfleet personnel unconscious, sabotaged equipment, hijacked starships... Why would he stop at falsifying a log entry?

Kirk might've had to justify his decision to allow Khan to settle the planet rather than bringing him into custody, but I don't think he lied about it if that's the implication. Unless I'm forgetting a piece of dialog.

I wonder if there ever existed a warrant on Khan... If not, Kirk might simply have decided not to prosecute, as Khan's recent antics only concerned Kirk and his crew, and they came to no harm in the end.

in fact, Terrell seems to put off a vibe that he had seen something like them before..

I get the same impression. They don't need to put it in words amongst themselves, of course.

Now..why Chekov isn't putting two-and-two together until he sees the belt buckle is a good question.

We might once again have a wholly incorrect attitude towards the lives of our heroes. We naturally think that the Khan thing was a big deal for them - but why should it be? They face exotic, mortal danger basically every second week. They visit hundreds if not thousands of planets. Why should they remember Khan at all?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

I don't have time to generate a more detailed response at the moment, but judging by Matt Jefferies' (usually appropriate) penchant for recycling pre-existing concepts whether it be architecture from the 1964 New York World's Fair for Starbase 11 or a Douglas Aircraft Company inflatable space station model for Deep Space Station K-7 I wouldn't be at all surprised if his DY-100 spacecraft design...

...was ultimately nothing more than a Hollywoodization of Krafft Ehricke's 1963 proposal for a D/^3He fusion-energized interplanetary transfer vehicle with a virtually identical 360° external cargo storage system:

Scanned from my copy of Study of Interplanetary Missions to Mercury Through Saturn with Emphasis on Manned Missions to Venus and Mars 1973-1982 Involving Capture by Krafft A. Ehricke (General Dynamics/Astronautics, Report GD/A-63-0916, September 1963).

TGT

 

[Timo]

Your tangents are always an absolute delight, TGT!

OTOH, the radially mounted cargo idea has been a staple of all Bonestellishly semi-plausible scifi vehicles that aren't aerodynamically motivated, now hasn't it? The typical incarnation is an upright vessel standing on the surface of Moon, Mars etc. Jeffries' "space tramp" differs from this in the possibly important respect that it's clearly trying to be horizontal, with a windowed/doorwayed submarine-style conning tower to heavily indicate that the pull of onboard gravity ain't towards the engines... Thus, the inspiration in this case might be more related to a combination of submarine and truck than to existing realistic spacecraft plans.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Harry]

I've wondered if the Von Braun/Disney RM-1 was also an inspiration for the DY-100: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCK3q8uJoMY

It seems to have a bit of the submarine-look going on, and also has the circular containers, for fuel in this case. It also has the "red alert" sound effect

I had never seen that Jefferies sketch with the EVA astronaut before.. very insightful!

 

[USS Jack Riley]

My opinion's still up in the air regarding Khan's shelters in TWOK. Physically they look to me more like the TMP containers, but then that would mean the TOS Enterprise used the same containers way back when in presumably a similar cargo deck. No evidence against it but it feels funny to me for some reason. Another interesting note is that neither Chekov nor Terrell mentioned them being Starfleet containers, or questioned how they got there. They didn't say they weren't either, but they did seem to act like they didn't recognize them.

The closest thing we get in the movie is Capt. Terrel saying, "Those look like cargo containers." You can take that 2 ways. First, he is obviously familiar with Starfleet issue cargo containers and these are similar to what he has seen, but are in rough shape, given the meteorological conditions on the planet.

Second, that they look familiar as cargo containers, but are not Starfleet issue (as mentioned above, this is my prefererence). In other words, the function of the facilities (such as they are) appears to have been cargo containers, but Terrel isn't sure.

I don't doubt that Starfleet knew about Khan and his compadres (my previous post notwithstanding, it was an exaggeration to prove a point). Why Starfleet didn't bother to check on their progress is beyond me. I mean, the Reliant's crew doesn't even realize that a planet exploded and shifted the orbit of the planet they are surveying! Someone definitely dropped the ball there.