Opinion circa 1987: TNG is NOT Star Trek

[Maurice]

If I recall correctly, David Gerrold claimed that Gene wanted David's title on TNG to be "Head Writer" around the time that they were collaborating on the series bible. Of course, that status and situation changed for the worse once production of the show actually began, as it did for D.C. Fontana and others who had worked on TOS.

David Gerrold is not what I would consider a very reliable source but as Dorothy Fontana says Gene and Maislish tried to screw her over on her role and pay so it's not impossible Gerrold was told one thing and received another.

[...]
Then again, in TOS the only oddball commander that broke the rules was... well, James T Kirk.

That's a myth. He interpreted the rules, but that was part of his responsibility as a field commander who was often the sole Federation authority available.

There's a memo during TOS where, in response to someone saying Kirk would not disobey orders, Fontana wrote, "Since when?"

 

[Skipper]

Even if that's true, "the majority of commenters" is not remotely the same as "the majority of fans." The group that chooses to participate in and comment on communications networks -- whether lettercols and fanzines in the old days or social media today -- is always a fraction of the total fanbase, too small to be statistically representative, and biased in favor of those with strong opinions. Such things also tend to disproportionately represent those with negative opinions, because dissatisfied people are more motivated to speak out than satisfied people.

Absolutely. I really doubt that at the time people flooded the fanzines or the BBS with letters or posts saying "You know, I'm mildly curious about the new series" or "I'm moderately happy to know about these new character". I distinctively remember that when I learned of the news of TNG's production, I felt neither immeasurable hatred nor unstoppable joy. I was just a little content that I could see new science fiction stories. At that time tv sci-fi was simply atrocious.

 

[Imaus]

According to Rich and Mike of RLM, when they were 10, their thought process was 'Wow you can't have Star Trek without Kirk and Spock' - was this a common thought at the time? Would a recast or old career Shatner and Nimoy had been wanted, or, have them give the literal next generation - Sulu's daughter, maybe Harriman, etc, a send off? Or was that just the thoughts of trekkie kids at the time?

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[Christopher]

According to Rich and Mike of RLM, when they were 10, their thought process was 'Wow you can't have Star Trek without Kirk and Spock' - was this a common thought at the time?

Oh, yes, definitely. There's nothing new about Trek fans screaming that the newest incarnation isn't "true Trek" because it's different from what they're used to. It's been a predictable refrain with every new incarnation since the animated series. TOS fans took years to reconcile with TNG, and many never did. For that matter, several of the TOS actors themselves were quite vocal in their skepticism and hostility toward TNG, since they feared being replaced and not getting more work. I don't think Shatner fully came around until they got him on board for Generations.

 

[Qonundrum]

According to Rich and Mike of RLM, when they were 10, their thought process was 'Wow you can't have Star Trek without Kirk and Spock' - was this a common thought at the time? Would a recast or old career Shatner and Nimoy had been wanted, or, have them give the literal next generation - Sulu's daughter, maybe Harriman, etc, a send off? Or was that just the thoughts of trekkie kids at the time?

Nope. A lot of people wanted the same actors continuing. Especially after the reveal of TNG in that it wasn't the original crew...

Not to mention, the academy movie with younger actors for ST6 was put to rest very quickly as well.

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They do make some good arguments, especially BOBW - it's an emotional/visceral piece that is not exactly plot-heavy (to say the least, apart from 'neither should it be'), and it renders rewatches quick to get stale because there's no real dramatic meat and the emotional tension without underlying plot meat is like eating a bucket ofice cream instead of the full meal... I do disagree with them on the ending, it's a very clever subversion that - unlike for Picard being turned into a Borg - just couldn't be fathomed 30 minutes earlier to the magic moment. That said, it was obvious early on Picard would be Borgified and the costume, voice modulation, and dialogue put out still rose above it all. To say this episode was still huge is not without merit. It's in my top 10, but is by no means is it TNG's best. Nor Inner Light (which is good but a bit narrow in scope), nor Measure of a Man (which is quickly reused as plot fodder 3 or 400 times for the rest of TNG's run, and reused into its spinoffs and most notably as "holographic rights" ( :facepalm:, really Voyager? Even the best of those episodes have too much cringe, but I digress...)) And in a show that's still about "the human condition" so Data (in the end) is really nothing more than a walking "maguffin magic wand to get out of plot crisis conveniently" trope combined with metaphor for, say, autistic people if absolutely nothing else, the perception now becomes radically different. Moreso for other examples. Depends on how one looks into it and that becomes an entire encyclopedia set in of itself... oh, for the love of those 1990s...

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

At that time tv sci-fi was simply atrocious

Was there even any sci-fi on TV at the time

 

[Skipper]

Was there even any sci-fi on TV at the time

Well, yes (if "at the time" we mean early 80s pre-TNG). It was (except for a very fewwwwwww gems) generally bad. We discussed it in another thread.

I quote myself:

There are a lot of 80s sci-fi tv shows.
Here a partial list:
http://www.imdb.com/list/ls000097680/
The problem is that the majority of them (with the obvious exception of TNG) are simply not very good. You have:

1. Kid stuffs
2. Crime procedural with a little sci-fi twist
3. Good concept, horrible execution
4. Tacky. Incredible tacky.
5. Simply bad.

In good conscience, the only good things that I can recommend are some episodes of the 80s version of The Twilight Zone. And perhaps Max Headroom.

(and the original V miniserie)

I mean, they made this

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PS: @Christopher said good things about Starman but I never watched it.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Well, yes (if "at the time" we mean early 80s pre-TNG). It was (except for a very fewwwwwww gems) generally bad. We discussed it in another thread.

I quote myself:

There are a lot of 80s sci-fi tv shows.
Here a partial list:
http://www.imdb.com/list/ls000097680/
The problem is that the majority of them (with the obvious exception of TNG) are simply not very good. You have:

1. Kid stuffs
2. Crime procedural with a little sci-fi twist
3. Good concept, horrible execution
4. Tacky. Incredible tacky.
5. Simply bad.

In good conscience, the only good things that I can recommend are some episodes of the 80s version of The Twilight Zone. And perhaps Max Headroom.

(and the original V miniserie)

I mean, they made this

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PS: @Christopher said good things about Starman but I never watched it.

The only pre TNG one I heard of on that list was V and I never knew it was pre TNG till now

 

[Skipper]

The only pre TNG one I heard of on that list was V and I never knew it was pre TNG till now

You're making me feel old . Not even Twilight Zone?

 

[Ssosmcin]

I watched all of the American SF on tv as a kid. There was a decent amount but most of it was pretty crummy. I mean, I liked them as a kid and a few remain guilty pleasures but almost none of them are what I would consider “good.” They were all kinda “versions” of earlier successful TV or movie concepts. A lot of spins on The Fugitive, and then Star Wars.

 

[Skipper]

I watched all of the American SF on tv as a kid. There was a decent amount but most of it was pretty crummy. I mean, I liked them as a kid and a few remain guilty pleasures but almost none of them are what I would consider “good.” They were all kinda “versions” of earlier successful TV or movie concepts. A lot of spins on The Fugitive, and then Star Wars.

And a lot of them were just generic crime plots with a little of SciFi dressing. For example, The Power of Matthew Star: you have the representatives of an alien race, the living proof of the existence of other life forms. And the concrete danger of invasion by another alien race. And what is your best idea? "There's this Vegas' crime boss. Can you take care of it?"

 

[cooleddie74]

The only pre TNG one I heard of on that list was V and I never knew it was pre TNG till now

V May 1983
V: The Final Battle May 1984
V(Weekly Series) October 1984-March 1985

 

[Ssosmcin]

Usually the only decent SF series were the anthologies like the Ray Bradbury Theater because a weekly network series wouldn't have the money or the balls to be actual science fiction. It would have a sci-fi premise or flavor and then go for the comfort zone.

Even V wound up being "The A-Team/Dynasty with Alien Lizards."

 

[Skipper]

Probably the only one a little more intelligent and daring (before TNG!) in the 80s was Max Headroom.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Dynasty with Alien Lizards

Ha Dynasty with lizards. The 80s dancing with smurfs

 

[Qonundrum]

Usually the only decent SF series were the anthologies like the Ray Bradbury Theater because a weekly network series wouldn't have the money or the balls to be actual science fiction. It would have a sci-fi premise or flavor and then go for the comfort zone.

Even V wound up being "The A-Team/Dynasty with Alien Lizards."

It was the fad at the time, using "soap opera in space" as a crutch. Sci-fi, in classic format, was always more a niche to begin with (TNG being one of very few to reach more than one audience demographic type. Given costs, it made sense (apart from being somewhat lazy) to appeal to a wider range of audiences and I honestly can't blame them. )

And they didn't really know what to do except the usual cat-vs-mouse runarounds (some of which were not half bad) but was made so cheaply they even ditched the voice reverberation effect. They also relied on magic way too much since, obviously, getting two species to boink always results in a child that can do absolutely anything on cue. (Amazingly if not ironically, the TV show sometimes put actual thought into using her magical powerst, unlike TFB's using it as a "get out of plot peril free" crutch. Not too often but that's not the point.)

It didn't help that Diana would get a new adversary, named Charles. Guess what happens? They get married.

The acting of Jane Badler, Michael Ironside, and Marc Singer on top of their characters are probably why the show lasted as long as it had in the first place. But a lot of it was either rushed, half-baked, or ill-conceived... the earlier episodes had potential, but later on they'd pretend none of it existed. Even I stopped watching before the final episode...

The saddest part is the 85 version is better than most of the 2009 reboot, though its series finally finally figured out how to make it work - except they had 2 seasons' worth of even more half-baked soap opera and unsurprising "shock twists" thrown in.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Love it or hate it, call it "not real sci-fi," but The Six Million Dollar Man was 1970s American TV sci-fi that was enormously successful.

 

[Christopher]

The saddest part is the 85 version is better than most of the 2009 reboot, though its series finally finally figured out how to make it work - except they had 2 seasons' worth of even more half-baked soap opera and unsurprising "shock twists" thrown in.

Yes, the 2009 V reboot was dreadful. By the end, I was rooting for the villain to win, because the heroes were so mind-bogglingly stupid and self-sabotaging that they deserved to lose, while Anna cared about her people and acted intelligently enough that she deserved to win. (Plus she looked like Morena Baccarin, so...)

 

[ThankQ]

Was there even any sci-fi on TV at the time

Season 26 of Doctor Who. Which we all remember as one of the best.

 

[Ssosmcin]

It was the fad at the time, using "soap opera in space" as a crutch. Sci-fi, in classic format, was always more a niche to begin with (TNG being one of very few to reach more than one audience demographic type. Given costs, it made sense (apart from being somewhat lazy) to appeal to a wider range of audiences and I honestly can't blame them. )

And they didn't really know what to do except the usual cat-vs-mouse runarounds (some of which were not half bad) but was made so cheaply they even ditched the voice reverberation effect. They also relied on magic way too much since, obviously, getting two species to boink always results in a child that can do absolutely anything on cue. (Amazingly if not ironically, the TV show sometimes put actual thought into using her magical powerst, unlike TFB's using it as a "get out of plot peril free" crutch. Not too often but that's not the point.)

It didn't help that Diana would get a new adversary, named Charles. Guess what happens? They get married.

The acting of Jane Badler, Michael Ironside, and Marc Singer on top of their characters are probably why the show lasted as long as it had in the first place. But a lot of it was either rushed, half-baked, or ill-conceived... the earlier episodes had potential, but later on they'd pretend none of it existed. Even I stopped watching before the final episode...

The saddest part is the 85 version is better than most of the 2009 reboot, though its series finally finally figured out how to make it work - except they had 2 seasons' worth of even more half-baked soap opera and unsurprising "shock twists" thrown in.

The strange thing is the V weekly series was apparently NBC’s most expensive series at the time...and I have no idea where that money went! The first episode had some impressive set pieces and a killer final shot but so much stock footage and familiar backlot locations killed a lot of the reality. They drove around Hazzard County and had a fight scene In the same park where Major Nelson walked Jeannie’s dog.

The main actors and the music were the saving graces and I gave that series every chance. It just got so weird and careless as it went along, it’s amazing how much that show changed in a mere 19 episodes.