Online Petition Bring Back Kathryn Janeway!

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The canon point is moot. Not being canon doesn't mean an opinion can't be held about the direction relaunch is going. Killing off Kathryn Janeway was a huge waste of a strong older woman character, hardly a common type of character in Treklit. Deanna and Crusher are now reduced to angsty pregnancy fueled relationship dramas. Other women characters are younger kickass types (who don't get developed much either). I don't think they knew what to do with this strong older woman.

Anyway.. had her death been well written and meaningful I would have accepted it. If it had made me cry I would have accepted it. But it was done so badly, written so horribly that I felt utterly ripped off. I had no emotion other than the overwhelming desire to throw that piece of trash book across the room in disgust. So now, instead of mourning and accepting even if I wished it hadn't happened I have gotten more and more mad about it. I continue to read Treklit and it makes me even madder because it is so POINTLESS and because there is no one like the character of Janeway.

They totally screwed up in killing her. They can fix it. And no I don't want her as some disembodied super alien spirit thing, I want the REAL woman in the real world, her real age drinking real coffee.

I signed the petition.

 

[F. King Daniel]

About canon: There is no more Voyager canon. The show ended many years ago. That's why they're doing the relaunch books in the first place.

 

[Gorf]

And these relaunch books has one major flaw - no Janeway!

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

And these relaunch books has one major flaw - no Janeway!

Since the only thing we have are the books, having Janeway dead in them seems like a kick in the teeth to the people who actually cared about the series.

 

[kimc]

I sorry, but why bring Janeway back?

There is sometime a dramatic reason to permanently end the life a fictional character. I understand that a portion of the reason was that someone with the publisher personal didn't like the character of Janeway, but for batter of for worst she is gone.

Do we really want to endlessly bring everyone back with the magic reset button?


RIP Kathryn Janeway.

.

Yes we do because you see out of all the Main Trek Characters Killed, in the series, movies or books, each and every male character has been brought back again in either the series, movies or books.

AND NONE OF THE FEMALES.

Yes we want her back.

Brit

So...you're saying it's sexism?

...wow.

It's a theory being bandied about. Whether or not I agree with it depends on what day you ask me.

http://www.jceternal.com/kjif.htm

 

[SiorX]

More importantly, why isn't there a spoiler warning?

I'm currently reading through the Voy relaunch. Unfortunately, I'd already seen the spilled beans in a similar thread a few months back. It annoyed me then and annoys me now.

Full Circle only came out 15 months ago. Well within the the spoiler statue of limitations.

Yes, but Before Dishonor came out in 2008-ish, which is when she actually died. Full Circle was just Kirsten Beyer's way of trying to make the whole thing not terrible. Also - Twins fan?

I would have had zero problems with Janeway being killed off, if she was killed off at the end of the show or in an actual VOY book. And if her death was mind-blowingly awesome, to boot. I kind of liked the two-parter about (old) Admiral Janeway's death in Distant Shores. Very appropriate, IMO.

However, the how and why of her death in Before Dishonor was lame-o, and a kick to the shins of the rabid Janewayites. It'd be great if she came back, although I dunno if an online petition can do much.

^Not even just rabid Janewayites, tbh. I've never been much of a Voy fan, and I've not actually seen enough of it to be especially attached to Janeway. I read Before Dishonor as a TNG fan.

I still came away hating it for Janeway's death, because you don't do something like that to a Trek main character. It's a conceit I've always taken for granted in Star Trek - our leads are watermarked as Big Damn Heroes. She's one of the big five captains. Killing any of them off with no fanfare, no dignity, and an audible authorial sneer is... just not Trek.

 

[DonIago]

Other than the fact that one of them happened on the big screen (and while unlikely it's not impossible that the other ultimately could as well) is there anything that's particularly better about Kirk's death as compared to Janeway's?

I wasn't overly impressed with BD myself, but felt Janeway's death was a good stage-setter and necessary to making the rest of the book work. Also I frankly thought Lady Q had a lot of worthwhile things to say on the subject.

I'm sure in some peoples' eyes I'm a Janeway-hater now, or something. And I'll admit my views haven't been helped by some discussions I've had wherein admitted fans of Janeway have refused to acknowledge that she may have made poor decisions while I was willing to grant them points based on non-explicit information. And I was spoiled on the event, though not the particulars, which may have influenced my reaction. But in the end, regardless of who died, I think my reaction would be, at worst, "Aw man, they killed (person X)? That really sucks...but it's nice to see them taking some risks with their storytelling, I guess."

A fan of SG-1 once wrote an essay on how that series had devalued death for a long time by having characters return under what should have been improbable circumstances, and that killing off a major secondary character later in the show's run was a positive step, because it reminded us that Death was still out there and returning from it should be the exception, not the rule.

For myself, though the choice of Janeway clearly bothers some and may not have been executed in a manner worthy of the character according to others, at least it reminds us that the galaxy's a dangerous place and that even someone we might assume will "never die" is still a living, breathing person who should be appreciated because we never know when they may no longer be around to appreciate.

 

[Brit]

I sorry, but why bring Janeway back?

There is sometime a dramatic reason to permanently end the life a fictional character. I understand that a portion of the reason was that someone with the publisher personal didn't like the character of Janeway, but for batter of for worst she is gone.

Do we really want to endlessly bring everyone back with the magic reset button?


RIP Kathryn Janeway.

.

Yes we do because you see out of all the Main Trek Characters Killed, in the series, movies or books, each and every male character has been brought back again in either the series, movies or books.

AND NONE OF THE FEMALES.

Yes we want her back.

Brit

So...you're saying it's sexism?

...wow.

Not overtly sexist, but born out of tropes that are sexist. I don’t think many individuals on this board or individual writers and editors of Trek Lit are consciously sexist. What I do think is that certain individual readers of Trek Lit are very uncomfortable reading about older women as characters that can be admirals, that can give Picard orders, that can have a life that includes emotions. I had one individual use the excuse that, he didn’t like Voyager because its characters’ relationships with each other were like a family.

Sexism, like racism, is buried in culture. Right now we are aware of just how wrong it is, but there are many that, due to the layers of culture, cannot recognize it, especially in themselves. The only thing these people see is the loss of something they thought was theirs by right.

So did the editor set out to do something this sexist? Probably not, she did however make her decision because she believed that the majority of Trek Lit readers are males and mostly young males and that is where the sexism comes in to play. By the way women can be just as insensitive to female issues as men.

You have to be really carful and realize that the reason one group of people does not appear to read certain genres is not because they don’t like the genre outright but because the book they would like hasn’t been written yet.

Actually Pocket Books thinking is even more backward because they have also come to the conclusion that Trek Lit Readers do not like Science Fiction in general.

^Not even just rabid Janewayites, tbh. I've never been much of a Voy fan, and I've not actually seen enough of it to be especially attached to Janeway. I read Before Dishonor as a TNG fan.

I still came away hating it for Janeway's death, because you don't do something like that to a Trek main character. It's a conceit I've always taken for granted in Star Trek - our leads are watermarked as Big Damn Heroes. She's one of the big five captains. Killing any of them off with no fanfare, no dignity, and an audible authorial sneer is... just not Trek.

Yes, exactly.

For myself, though the choice of Janeway clearly bothers some and may not have been executed in a manner worthy of the character according to others, at least it reminds us that the galaxy's a dangerous place and that even someone we might assume will "never die" is still a living, breathing person who should be appreciated because we never know when they may no longer be around to appreciate.

And just why do we need to be reminded of our mortality in our entertainment. Every form of entertainment needs to connect with an audience, the audience needs to connect with the characters for full enjoyment. The element of mortality is crucial to the conflict of the story told, but the ending doesn’t have to be the death of a major character, it only has to show the possibility. The hero doesn’t have to die, he only has to be willing to do so.

For an audience that connects with Janeway, her death is just like a kick in the stomach. There are people that read to connect with characters, we have good evidence that it is mostly female and probably about half of the people that read and buy books. Character death as a trope isn’t edgy or innovative, it’s lazy writing.

Brit

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Character death as a trope isn’t edgy or innovative, it’s lazy writing.

Brit

Nail --> head

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You do all realize that the novels aren't canon and Janeway is - technically - still alive right?

Plus the writers have said they have no plans to bring the character back (even on this board in TrekLit). But the character isn't really dead since she's in the realm of the Q exploring the galaxy with Lady Q.

She's probab;t using the endless supplies of coffee the Q probably have.

You do all realize that the novels aren't canon

Says you.

No says Paramount and Viacom.

 

[DonIago]

And just why do we need to be reminded of our mortality in our entertainment. Every form of entertainment needs to connect with an audience, the audience needs to connect with the characters for full enjoyment. The element of mortality is crucial to the conflict of the story told, but the ending doesn’t have to be the death of a major character, it only has to show the possibility. The hero doesn’t have to die, he only has to be willing to do so.

For an audience that connects with Janeway, her death is just like a kick in the stomach. There are people that read to connect with characters, we have good evidence that it is mostly female and probably about half of the people that read and buy books. Character death as a trope isn’t edgy or innovative, it’s lazy writing.

Brit

While your mileage clearly varies, I connect with entertainment -more- when it occasionally includes unavoidable realities such as death (one of my favorite series is Six Feet Under).

Now this doesn't mean I always want to watch stuff like that (very often I don't), but I appreciate it for being IMO a bit more mature for not pretending that such things never happen, or that they only happen in grandiose ways for those who've lived meaningful lives.

I tend to think I connected with, if not always -liked- Janeway just fine (but then, I can't think of a single character in any Trek incarnation who was always likeable...can you?). When Death came for her it -sucked-, but I don't think it's fair to the author/PTB to characterize it as a "cheap, meaningless stunt" either...that's not giving them much credit.

To remove her death from Before Dishonor would, IMO, defang the entire story, because of all the actions the Borg take in the course of that story, for some people it's that first one, the most personal of violations for some, that really lands...heck, this thread is evidence of that.

"Character death as a trope isn’t edgy or innovative, it’s lazy writing."

At what point does character death become a trope? SFU wouldn't have existed without character death, and for me that would diminish the media world. LOST never shied away from character death, and if they had it would have been..."Disney presents LOST", or something. Without character death DS9 wouldn't have had nearly the same level of impact.

I'm just trying to get some clarification here as to when character death transitions into lazy writing.

 

[Brit]

To remove her death from Before Dishonor would, IMO, defang the entire story, because of all the actions the Borg take in the course of that story, for some people it's that first one, the most personal of violations for some, that really lands...heck, this thread is evidence of that.

And I completely agree that to remove her death from “Before Dishonor” probably would defang the entire story (again I haven’t read it.) but from what I have been told Peter David was told to write a book, that included Admiral’s Janeway’s death and fit in with a story arc that began with “Resistance.” That being the case the book had to be written around Kathryn Janeway’s death and yes played a major part of the story.

Our point is the book should have been written differently and not included Janeway’s death. It would not have been the book you read but actually could have been a much better book in the first place, wouldn’t have make a whole bunch of people mad and probably would have sold a whole lot more books. Then the relaunch of Voyager could have included Admiral Janeway, and you wouldn’t have had to include a different Admiral that no one particularly cared about in the first place, again gaining readers instead of losing them.

At what point does character death become a trope? SFU wouldn't have existed without character death, and for me that would diminish the media world. LOST never shied away from character death, and if they had it would have been..."Disney presents LOST", or something. Without character death DS9 wouldn't have had nearly the same level of impact.

I'm just trying to get some clarification here as to when character death transitions into lazy writing.

Character death, is in and of itself a trope.

trope
1.
Rhetoric .
a.
any literary or rhetorical device, as metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, and irony, that consists in the use of words in other than their literal sense.
b.
an instance of this. Compare figure of speech.
2.
a phrase, sentence, or verse formerly interpolated in a liturgical text to amplify or embellish.
3.
(in the philosophy of Santayana) the principle of organization according to which matter moves to form an object during the various stages of its existence.

Certain major elements of stories are tropes. Some are more general than others. I am very interested in romance as a genre and it is full of writing tropes. They are useful and can be used but not overused.

The Death of a Major character usually assures that the remaining characters are motivated to act, it’s easy, well known and is actually lazy writing. It would have been harder to write Janeway in a way that appealed to an audience that was inclined to dislike her, but would have ultimately resulted in a more satisfying story for everyone.

Brit

 

[DonIago]

I'd be curious to hear from people who -have- read BD as to how the goal of killing the character could be achieved while simultaneously improving the overall work, then.

Saying that it would have been a better book, annoyed fewer people and sold more copies is speculative.

I think anyone who categorically states that The Death of a Major Character trope is lazy writing simply hasn't been exposed to scenarios in which it isn't. The major character deaths in Lost and Six Feet Under rarely strike me as such (though there are exceptions).

 

[Udat]

How come Pocket books was allowed to kill a major character?

 

[Brit]

I think anyone who categorically states that The Death of a Major Character trope is lazy writing simply hasn't been exposed to scenarios in which it isn't. The major character deaths in Lost and Six Feet Under rarely strike me as such (though there are exceptions).

The difference is that both "Lost" and "Six Feet Under" defined themselves in the beginning as using major character death. Star Trek was and is not defined that way, but rather as stories about how we as a people can grow to be better than we are right now.

Character Death is lazy because it's easy to use. I'm not saying it hasn't been done well but it's an easy way to generate conflict. And IMHO given the definition of Trek, major character death is wrong. It's harder to generate conflict without the death, but ultimately for the majority the story is more satisfying.

Saying that it would have been a better book, annoyed fewer people and sold more copies is speculative.

But saying that it wouldn't, is just as speculative. What wasn't speculative is the fact that Janeway had fans and if they were readers of Trek Lit (and many including myself were), you are taking a chance of losing those readers and that isn't speculative at all, but simple common sense.

I'd be curious to hear from people who -have- read BD as to how the goal of killing the character could be achieved while simultaneously improving the overall work, then.

This is a unfair statement, it only allows a select few to voice an opinion. I'd be more interested in who has ideas for better overall Trek stories independent of Pocket Books arcs.

How come Pocket books was allowed to kill a major character?

They were only allowed to do so with the stipulation that she could be brought back. Pocket Books wanted a permanent death.

Brit

 

[Lynx]

I sorry, but why bring Janeway back?

There is sometime a dramatic reason to permanently end the life a fictional character. I understand that a portion of the reason was that someone with the publisher personal didn't like the character of Janeway, but for batter of for worst she is gone.

Do we really want to endlessly bring everyone back with the magic reset button?


RIP Kathryn Janeway.

.

Yes we do. I miss her. I want her back

Me too!

I like the Voyager characters and I don't like to see them destroyed or killed off.

Not to mention that when I read a Voyager book, I want to read about the Voyager characters.

All of them!

And yes, I've signed the petition!

 

[DonIago]

Saying that it would have been a better book, annoyed fewer people and sold more copies is speculative.

But saying that it wouldn't, is just as speculative. What wasn't speculative is the fact that Janeway had fans and if they were readers of Trek Lit (and many including myself were), you are taking a chance of losing those readers and that isn't speculative at all, but simple common sense.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here beyond that TPTB took a risk.

I'd be curious to hear from people who -have- read BD as to how the goal of killing the character could be achieved while simultaneously improving the overall work, then.

This is a unfair statement, it only allows a select few to voice an opinion. I'd be more interested in who has ideas for better overall Trek stories independent of Pocket Books arcs.

How exactly is this unfair? I'm not saying other people can't express their own ideas, I'm saying which ideas I'd like to hear about. Also it's one thing to say BD could have been done differently (much less better), it's quite another to substantiate that idea via explaining how.

If you're interested in other Trek stories, there's an entire fanfic forum here for them. Or, like I said, there's nothing stopping anyone from expressing their ideas here.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Brit, you really should read Before Dishonor before you condemn it. Go to a library or order a second-hand copy online if you don't want Pocket to see a penny for killing your favourite character, but give it a read nonetheless.

Opinion varies from "lots of fun" to "worst book ever". I'd be interested to know what the die-hard Janeway fans who have actually read it think.

 

[DonIago]

^Agreed.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

SPOILERS ABOUND, re: TV shows DS9 & Voy, and TNG novels/Voyager novels.

I'd be curious to hear from people who -have- read BD as to how the goal of killing the character could be achieved while simultaneously improving the overall work, then.

First, if I was going to kill off Admiral Kathryn Janeway.... I would have done it in a VOYAGER book, not make it the B story in a Picard tale.

Second, if I was going to kill off Admiral Janeway, I would not have made her so "silly" in going to investigate the Cube in the manner she did. There were NO Starfleet officers who didn't crew with her on Voyager as well versed in this enemy. The attempt to show her hubris instead just made her look stupid.

Third, If I was going to kill off Janeway, I would have shown a more vigorous fight between Janeway's consciousness and the adhoc BORG consciousness that was trying to develop another Queen. For specifics on how one would do this, I would have sent the writers to the season 3 ep "Warlord" for the conversations between Kes and Tieran.

Fourth, if I was going to kill off Kathryn, then I would have used her mental connection to Seven more vigorously, after she was assimilated, to communicate with her stepdaughter.

Fifth... I wouldn't have done it as part of a "relaunch" of Voyager near the 10th anniversary mark of the series' end. I would have had some fantastic Admiral Janeway stories in the bag to show that this woman who captured our imagination didn't just curl up in the mahogany halls of Starfleet's admiralty and stagnate.


Oh... and SIXTH!!!!! I don't recall who is to blame, BD or FC... but I wouldn't have made her death SO UN-NOTABLE that a Starship Captain coming home from his own mission actually needed to be informed by her ex-lover that KATHRYN WAS DEAD!

THAT information should have been blasted throughout Starfleet, to every ship, every base, every freaking Federation citizen within earshot of a com device. It should have been playing on every news channel and every news outlet that he walked by on the way to the restuarant.

Admiral Janeway is dead, fighting in the service of the Federation of United Planets.

Praised be HER name for all time!

That is how I, a fan of Voyager, a fan of Janeway, a fan of Sisko and of Picard, and a fan of Kirk, would have done it.


Is she in a refrigerator? is it sexism? is it racism?

I'm still shocked that Starfleet's 1st BLACK (TV) Captain was left in a wormhole as a "prophet" at the end of his "show", and its first FEMALE (TV) Captain is killed off "soon after" (in book time, only 2-3 years?) she returns from the Delta Quadrant in her show.