One thing missing from 'A Time To...'

[T'Girl]

Nonsense. At most, the planet would be a Federation Protectorate, not a member.

Not quite, there no indication that the planet is either a member or a protectorate. More likely the planet simply is a Federation territorial possession.

The Federation's federal government simply would not have the authority to order these people to give up their planet.

Again the Federation and the Son'a didn't want the planet itself, the process of removing the ring was going to cook the planet's surface, it would be several decades before the Ba'Ku could return.

PICARD: To move you off this planet. .... In a few days, you're relocated on a similar planet

The Ba'ku could have stayed on the planet the Federation placed them on, or left as they saw fit. Anij told Picard that the Ba'Ku's young were increasingly curious about the off-world galaxy. In time the Ba'Ku could have resettled the valley on the original planet, admittedly without the natural effects of the ring. But if the Federation ideas about using the metaphasic particles was correct, the Bu'Ku would continue to enjoy the health benefits.

And it is theirs, by virtue of them being the only people on it. I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue that.

Only 600 people can lay claim to, not just a planet, but to the surrounding ring system? Yes, I could reasonably argue against that.

.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Nonsense. At most, the planet would be a Federation Protectorate, not a member.

Not quite, there no indication that the planet is either a member or a protectorate. More likely the planet simply is a Federation territorial possession.

The Federation's federal government simply would not have the authority to order these people to give up their planet.

Again the Federation and the Son'a didn't want the planet itself, the process of removing the ring was going to cook the planet's surface, it would be several decades before the Ba'Ku could return.

PICARD: To move you off this planet. .... In a few days, you're relocated on a similar planet

The Ba'ku could have stayed on the planet the Federation placed them on, or left as they saw fit. Anij told Picard that the Ba'Ku's young were increasingly curious about the off-world galaxy. In time the Ba'Ku could have resettled the valley on the original planet, admittedly without the natural effects of the ring. But if the Federation ideas about using the metaphasic particles was correct, the Bu'Ku would continue to enjoy the health benefits.

And it is theirs, by virtue of them being the only people on it. I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue that.

Only 600 people can lay claim to, not just a planet, but to the surrounding ring system? Yes, I could reasonably argue against that.

.

Flint was the only person on Holberg 917-G and yet Kirk didn't simply take the ryetalyn.

In Mudd's Women Kirk didn't take the Dilithium from the miners. He could have beamed down elsewhere on the planet but it would appear that the miners had title to the planet. If they didn't, why wouldn't he mine his own? Perhaps Dilithium only exists in one location but that seems unlikely. How many minerals appear in only one location on Earth?

If removing the particles from the ring system then the ring is defiantly part of the planet's system.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Membership in the Federation is voluntary, that's what some people here seem to be forgetting. The Federation's federal government simply would not have the authority to order these people to give up their planet. And it is theirs, by virtue of them being the only people on it. I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue that.

'You think that if some romulans were to start a colony on a planet in federation territory, that planet automatically gains independence because the romulans are not federation members and they're the "only people on it"?
Hardly. That romulan colony gains independence - and the settled planet ceases to be federation territory - only if the federation recognises said independence.'

 

[Sci]

Let's go through this again:

Dougherty (aka canon) said "we (the Federation) have the planet" aka the planet is definitely not independent.

The problem with this argument is that you're presuming that Dougherty is speaking legally and formally when there is every possibility that he is speaking quite informally, in terms of the Federation's de facto control of access to the planet rather than actual ownership of the planet.

And the problems with your argument are:
-that Dougherty directly said the federation has the planet aka it is not independent

Yes, I'm sure you're having a lovely time repeating yourself, but you haven't actually provided any evidence that he's speaking legally and formally, you've just repeated the assertion that he is.

-that Picard confirmed Dougherty is speaking "legally and formally" when saying the planet is not independent by NOT contradicting him on this essential point

Once again, that Picard does not construct a legal brief is not evidence that a legal argument does not exist.

(your convoluted interpretation would have Picard be an incompetent moron)

Whether or not Picard is a moron is entirely separate from the question of whether or not Ba'ku is Federation territory.

First - it's not proven (not even close) that the ba'ku settled the planet before the federation existed.

So, wait, you just accept the most informal, ambiguous statements from Federates as the gospel truth, but when a Ba'ku says something very simply and plainly -- that they've lived on the Ba'ku planet for three hundred years -- then suddenly it's "not proven, not even close?"

Wow. Inconsistent standards much?

Second - your own country owns a lot of land that "was already inhabited and owned by a foreign culture" before the USA existed.

Yes. And as I've said before, it was wrong of the United States to take that land. Had I been alive then, I would have opposed American imperial designs on Central North America. The same way, for instance, I opposed the Iraq War.

I love my country; that doesn't mean I think that its imperial history is a good thing. And the Federation, because it is a society that has learned from the horrors of the past, would not engage in that sort of imperialism. The Federation Charter would have banned it from the start.

All planets in federation space are owned by the federation, EXCEPT:
Those recognised as independent by the federation (not this planet);

And on what grounds would the Federation not recognize the independence of a foreign culture that's been there longer than they have?

Those where the Prime Directive applies (not here, regarding the ba'ku).

Actually, "Redemption, Parts I & II" make it clear that the Prime Directive applies to all foreign cultures -- it was why Picard and Co. couldn't interfere in the Klingon Civil War.

Indeed, he went on and on with morality and rhetoric - and never once invoked a far more powerful legal argument

Probably because he figured if Dougherty wouldn't respond to basic human decency, he certainly wouldn't respond to something as blase as the law.

If you're under the impression that the law is only binding in a court of law, you're wrong. The law is binding everywhere.

Of course it is.

But not every speaks in legalese.

And even when the law is binding, that doesn't mean that people always obey it. If someone's not going to obey basic morality, why would they obey the law?

 

[Therin of Andor]

This whole movie was warning us that what people say, and how people look, can't always be trusted on face value. Data wasn't really running amok. The Ba'ku weren't really a pre-warp people. Dougherty told lies to the Federation Council. Federation Council made assumptions, and gave Picard orders, based on those lies. The Son'a weren't as alien as they appeared. They also appeared to be helping the Federation harvest the rings, but were really having vengeance on the Ba'ku - having them removed from the planet via trickery.

As such, we are supposed to be uncertain about who's in the right and who's in the wrong. And just who was committing insurrection.

 

[elaithin]

I'm still utterly baffled by the people here claiming that the forced relocation of a sovereign people is somehow the right thing to do.

 

[BillJ]

This whole movie was warning us that what people say, and how people look, can't always be trusted on face value. Data wasn't really running amok. The Ba'ku weren't really a pre-warp people. Dougherty told lies to the Federation Council. Federation Council made assumptions, and gave Picard orders, based on those lies. The Son'a weren't as alien as they appeared. They also appeared to be helping the Federation harvest the rings, but were really having vengeance on the Ba'ku - having them removed from the planet via trickery.

As such, we are supposed to be uncertain about who's in the right and who's in the wrong. And just who was committing insurrection.

Yet the pretty white people with perfect teeth were the good guys and the older, uglier people were the bad guys. Go figure.

I'm still utterly baffled by the people here claiming that the forced relocation of a sovereign people is somehow the right thing to do.

Probably because some of us aren't wrapped up in property ownership. Realizing that said ownership is transitory at best (you can't take it with you). If you can use the radiation to make life better for billions at the cost of six hundred losing their homes... then I'm all for it.

 

[elaithin]

I'm not particularly wrapped up in it myself. But no one in the movie ever asks the Ba'ku if they'd leave for that reason, as I recall. And even still, it's simply wrong to force them to do so.

 

[BillJ]

But no one in the movie ever asks the Ba'ku if they'd leave for that reason, as I recall.

You'll never get me to argue that the entire operation made any type of sense. But that's another argument...

 

[kkozoriz1]

For someone who's not wrapped up in property ownership you sure advocate taking possession of the ring particles.

 

[BillJ]

If you can use the radiation to make life better for billions at the cost of six hundred losing their homes... then I'm all for it.

For someone who's not wrapped up in property ownership you sure advocate taking possession of the ring particles.

You may actually want to read the entire post...

I'm not advocating going in and taking the planet for the hell of it. Or because I want to see the pretty white people cry.

I'm weighing the possible effect on the lives of billions versus moving six hundred people, who aren't native to the planet to begin with.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Nonsense. At most, the planet would be a Federation Protectorate, not a member.

Not quite, there no indication that the planet is either a member or a protectorate. More likely the planet simply is a Federation territorial possession.

Which is why I said "at most".

 

[kkozoriz1]

And who gets to make the determination who's entitled to live where? Miramani's people were transplanted by the Preservers. Are they entitled to their planet? The Romulans aren't native to Romulus. Would the Federation be entitled to wage war just to take the planet if they felt they had a need for it?

There's a deleted scene with Quark on the planet. It would appear that the writers intent was that the Sona would allow other people to visit the planet. It's not up on the screen but it does give a possible glimpse into what happened after the credits rolled.

 

[Therin of Andor]

If it's ok to move 600, is it also ok to move 6000? Or 60 000? Or 6 million? And so on. If it's not okay to move 600, what about 60? Or 6?

 

[BillJ]

And who gets to make the determination who's entitled to live where? Miramani's people were transplanted by the Preservers. Are they entitled to their planet? The Romulans aren't native to Romulus. Would the Federation be entitled to wage war just to take the planet if they felt they had a need for it?

There's a deleted scene with Quark on the planet. It would appear that the writers intent was that the Sona would allow other people to visit the planet. It's not up on the screen but it does give a possible glimpse into what happened after the credits rolled.

If it's ok to move 600, is it also ok to move 6000? Or 60 000? Or 6 million? And so on. If it's not okay to move 600, what about 60? Or 6?

Like I've said the numerous times over the years (yes it's been years)... it is going to be on a case by case basis. No law of man is absolute or universal, we are not gods.

I just refuse to deny potential medical benefits to billions based on 600 squatters. History can call me a monster... I really don't care. YMMV

 

[JD]

That's it, I'm done. We've been saying the same thing for the past 3 or 4 pages, and I don't think anyone is going to change their minds.

 

[BillJ]

That's it, I'm done. We've been saying the same thing for the past 3 or 4 pages, and I don't think anyone is going to change their minds.

At least everyone is consistent.

 

[JD]

Well, yeah there is that. But it does kind feel like we're all until we .

 

[Sci]

I'm still utterly baffled by the people here claiming that the forced relocation of a sovereign people is somehow the right thing to do.

Probably because some of us aren't wrapped up in property ownership.

But this isn't about property ownership; this is about a sovereign culture -- by any reasonable definition, a state, really; they clearly have an official structure for making communal decisions that's binding upon all members of their community -- having the right to live where its members want to live, where they have lived for centuries, and no other culture having the right to force them to move.

This is about sovereign, about a culture's right to self-determination, more than it is about property rights.

If you can use the radiation to make life better for billions at the cost of six hundred losing their homes... then I'm all for it.

This is an entirely secondary issue, but do remember that it's not a guarantee that the metaphasic whosawhatsits that the Federation and Son'a wanted to do to the Ba'ku world would actually result in any medical benefit for anyone. They basically wanted to violate a foreign culture's sovereignty and fry an entire planet for the sake of an experiment, not for the sake of a guaranteed outcome.

 

[Therin of Andor]

They basically wanted to violate a foreign culture's sovereignty and fry an entire planet for the sake of an experiment, not for the sake of a guaranteed outcome.

Because the Son'a had managed to bluff the UFP and Starfleet into believing that this was a worthy project/experiment, but their actual purpose was revenge. They wanted revenge. That their "parents", who had exiled them for their immaturity, to be expelled/punished just as they had been.